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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Quest for Truth: Balance.

 (Read 26988 times)
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  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #90 - July 23, 2010, 09:20 AM

    when we talk about anything outside our universe it is mere speculation and nothing more (including why God may or may not have decided to create the Universe in this configuration)


    People used to believe in many gods without any proof to base their beliefs on, some people still do.  Some people believe in only one god, again without any evidence.  So without any evidence there is either

    A: Many gods
    B: One god
    C: No gods

    To say that talking about anything outside of the universe "including god" is speculation, is itself speculation. Ignoring point C completely this approach rules out the equally possible option "A".  What if the universe is so monumentally impressive that it took 2 gods to create it, or 10?  Of course without proof of any of these then they are all equally possible.

    But it seems that all one needs to do is to declare something as "outside our universe" and not only can we say that we cannot speculate about any of its properties, but we can also make as many assumptions as we like such as

    1: It watches us
    2: One day we will meet it
    3: It will judge us
    4: It created the universe

    Whereas these points are indicative of an oppressed people.  Held in some kind of slavery they yearn for a higher power who will one day save them of their slavey, that will one day turn the tables on their mortal masters and elevate slave above master.

    If I recall correctly the Israelites were enslaved by the Babylonians, is that right?  I've not looked into Judaism/Christianity much.  But recent archaeological evidence from Israel suggests that they were still idol worshippers at the time and that the Torah was invented to give those people hope, telling them that the creator of the universe loves them more than anyone else, and that if they only "revert" to their old religion god will save them and their mortal masters will be punished.

    Christianity grew during Roman occupation.
    Matthew 20:16 - So the last will be first, and the first will be last.

    I think the Abrahamic religions were well established by this point and there were (as now) probably quite a few people who wanted to be a prophet of god.  Muhammad just happened to pull it off for whatever reason.  But his depictions of heaven and hell are very indicative again of the needs of the people.  Where in hell there is nothing to eat or drink, and in heaven there is everlasting food and water, and even plenty of sex with women who will only ever have sex with you and nobody else.

    So in summary:

    God was in the sky until we mastered the sky.
    Then god was relegated to space until we reached space.
    Now god is in a dimension which can never be found, outside of the rules of our universe, so that any difficulty we observe with the principle of creator god can be dismissed with "we cannot know."

    One thing is certain though.  If such a thing exists as the creator of the universe, either it didn't create a single religion on Earth, or if it did then it was having a REALLY bad day.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #91 - July 23, 2010, 10:41 AM

    Ok calm down - i thought we were talking about science - i'm not sure it's appropriate to bring religion into the discussion  Smiley
    As I indicated right at the start of the discussion, belief itself is of course just speculation, which is why I said a lot of religous people even  consider themselves to be Agnostic. Just in the same way someone might describe him/herself as an Agnostic Atheist another individual might describe him/herself as and Agnostic Theist.

    Quote
    To say that talking about anything outside of the universe "including god" is speculation, is itself speculation


    True, but I was saying for the sake of argument - since it was what we were discussing.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #92 - July 23, 2010, 10:45 AM

    Theoretically speaking yes, but not in practice.  We are talking about 12 billion years ago, so we might never be practically able to piece together the entire jigsaw with that limitation. 


    Sure, I don't think anyone expexts a step-be-step description of what happened in this case (although physicists have done an amazing and truly wonderous job so far). But what we should expect is a sound scientific description and mechanisms of what we think did occur - otherwise it just becomes scientific speculation without any real basis.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #93 - July 23, 2010, 10:50 AM

    and THEN there is the string theory!  Cheesy Cheesy

    (a 101 guide for non physicists and non scientists)

    http://superstringtheory.com/


    Don't mock string theory! it could possibly be the key to unlocking some of the deepest mysteries of our universe and remains the prime candidate for merging quantum mechanics and general relativity - perhaps the holy grail of theoretical physics. That website is a bit lame - instead if anyone is interested I would recommend Brian Greene's 'The Elegant Universe', or if you can't be bothered to read the book there's a great DVD based on the book as well.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #94 - July 23, 2010, 10:52 AM

    Ok calm down - i thought we were talking about science - i'm not sure it's appropriate to bring religion into the discussion  Smiley
    As I indicated right at the start of the discussion, belief itself is of course just speculation, which is why I said a lot of religous people even  consider themselves to be Agnostic. Just in the same way someone might describe him/herself as an Agnostic Atheist another individual might describe him/herself as and Agnostic Theist.

    True, but I was saying for the sake of argument - since it was what we were discussing.


    I am not having a go at you, I am just having a bit of a vent.  You seem to be in agreement that god is unknowable, but that is as I said based on a preconception that this god exists outside of our universe.  It would only be accurate to say "Anything which exists outside of our universe might not be bound by the laws of our universe" - throwing creator god into that conclusion simply unfounded.

    But onto the subject of different universal laws...

    How amazing would it be if there were different universes each bound by different laws?  Some of the life forms existing there might be so absolutely incomprehendable that we would never be able to imagine them.  Sadly though due to the difference consistency of these universes we might never find one, and even if we did we would probably be unable to visit the vast majority of them.

    The only thing that saddens me about a lack of life after death was that I had to give up my childhood dream.  The dream that because ghosts can travel anywhere instantly I'd be able to explore the universe and witness its beauty first hand.  Now it has been relegated to fantasy, even realists are allowed those Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #95 - July 23, 2010, 10:58 AM

    what the hell is an agnostic theist. 'i know god is a speculation but i'll believe anyway'. thats just strange.
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #96 - July 23, 2010, 11:13 AM

    Quote
    I am not having a go at you, I am just having a bit of a vent.  You seem to be in agreement that god is unknowable, but that is as I said based on a preconception that this god exists outside of our universe.  It would only be accurate to say "Anything which exists outside of our universe might not be bound by the laws of our universe" - throwing creator god into that conclusion simply unfounded.


    Ok, but I think I did say earlier that for purposes of the discussion I was assuming in this case that God (if he exists) might exist outside of our Universe - of course this is only speculation itself.

    Quote
    How amazing would it be if there were different universes each bound by different laws?  Some of the life forms existing there might be so absolutely incomprehendable that we would never be able to imagine them.  Sadly though due to the difference consistency of these universes we might never find one, and even if we did we would probably be unable to visit the vast majority of them.


    Interestingly, according to string theory it is thought that gravity might be able to escape from our universe (i.e. from our brane - and this would also explain why gravity is such a weak force compared to the other three known fundamental forces) and therefore might reach other universes, if they exist. Therefore we might be able to communicate with other universes via 'gravity waves', lol. It goes without saying that this is at the moment wild scientific speculation.

    Quote
    How amazing would it be if there were different universes each bound by different laws?  Some of the life forms existing there might be so absolutely incomprehendable that we would never be able to imagine them.  Sadly though due to the difference consistency of these universes we might never find one, and even if we did we would probably be unable to visit the vast majority of them.


     Afro

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #97 - July 23, 2010, 11:19 AM

    what the hell is an agnostic theist. 'i know god is a speculation but i'll believe anyway'. thats just strange.


    I think it's simply a belief that there is a God, while fully acknowledging that the ultimate truth of whether there actually is a God is currently unknowable. Why would an individual decide to have such a belief in a Creator? That depends on the indivdual - but the reasoning can range from philosophical to scientific.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #98 - July 23, 2010, 11:25 AM

    AbuYunus, why would we want to know about all this stuff, if our purpose here is to be tested for faith and if our final destination is either a world of suffering or a marvellous world, where nobody needs to work or study in order to lead a happy and entertaining life?

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #99 - July 23, 2010, 11:31 AM

    who said we were here to be tested for faith in God? Humans seem to have an in-built thirst for knowledge just like my son has an in-built thirst to dance whenever he hears music. Are you speculating about the nature of the afterlife? (assuming there is one)

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #100 - July 23, 2010, 11:38 AM

    this is at the moment wild scientific speculation.


    But importantly, a testable hypothesis Smiley

    PS: If you are an agnostic theist this means that you accept you are without knowledge.  Seeing as the Quran is a claim to knowledge does that mean you reject the Quran, or that you aren't really an agnostic?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #101 - July 23, 2010, 11:39 AM

    what the hell is an agnostic theist. 'i know god is a speculation but i'll believe anyway'. thats just strange.


    Gnosticism is about "Knowing"
    Deism = Belief in creator god
    Theism = Belief in creator god + that he intervenes in human affairs

    Agnostic theist = A theist who accepts that they do not KNOW

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #102 - July 23, 2010, 11:41 AM

    who said we were here to be tested for faith in God? Humans seem to have an in-built thirst for knowledge just like my son has an in-built thirst to dance whenever he hears music. Are you speculating about the nature of the afterlife? (assuming there is one)


    Gawd, you're such a heretic. Roll Eyes grin12

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
    Wikis: en de fr ar tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #103 - July 23, 2010, 11:42 AM

    But importantly, a testable hypothesis Smiley


    Yes indeed

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #104 - July 23, 2010, 11:44 AM


    PS: If you are an agnostic theist this means that you accept you are without knowledge.  Seeing as the Quran is a claim to knowledge does that mean you reject the Quran, or that you aren't really an agnostic?


    I'm agnostic about the veracity of the Qur'an itself   Smiley

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #105 - July 23, 2010, 12:14 PM

    what the hell is an agnostic theist. 'i know god is a speculation but i'll believe anyway'. thats just strange.

    lol - I dont think its quite like that.  I think its about having a feeling its true, but realised you cant be sure.  Might also be a a bit of Pascals wager in there for some too.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #106 - July 23, 2010, 12:18 PM

    I'm agnostic about the veracity of the Qur'an itself   Smiley


    But what about the origin of it?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #107 - July 23, 2010, 12:20 PM

    I'm agnostic about the veracity of the Qur'an itself   Smiley

    Steady on.  You getting cocky now that Debunkers not here Smiley

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #108 - July 23, 2010, 12:23 PM

    But what about the origin of it?


    I think it's clear that I'm agnostic about that also - I beleive it may have been divinely inspired - but don't actually know whether it was or not.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #109 - July 23, 2010, 12:25 PM

    Steady on.  You getting cocky now that Debunkers not here Smiley


    lol, gud thing he's not here - he would have killed me.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #110 - July 23, 2010, 12:32 PM

    I think it's clear that I'm agnostic about that also - I beleive it may have been divinely inspired - but don't actually know whether it was or not.


    Not clear to me, I haven't been following your life Smiley

    What about the origin of the book of mormon, do you hold the probability of that being divinely inspired equally to that of the Quran?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #111 - July 23, 2010, 12:36 PM

    Quote
    Not clear to me, I haven't been following your life


    I should hope not, but I stated this a few times in other threads.


    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #112 - July 23, 2010, 12:41 PM

    I should hope not, but I stated this a few times in other threads.


    Although I sometimes spot something interesting you have written, I am not quite ready yet to boil your pet rabbit Smiley

    So.....Book of Mormon?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #113 - July 23, 2010, 12:53 PM

    Quote
    So.....Book of Mormon?


    I'd rather not discuss the merits (or not) of religous texts if it's ok - certainly don't want to start comparing them. I don't think religous texts are relevant to todays society as my personal opinion is that they were probably meant to be a guide only for the times and places in which they were sent - this of course is just a personal speculation of mine.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #114 - July 23, 2010, 12:59 PM

    I'd rather not discuss the merits (or not) of religous texts if it's ok - certainly don't want to start comparing them. I don't think religous texts are relevant to todays society as my personal opinion is that they were probably meant to be a guide only for the times and places in which they were sent - this of course is just a personal speculation of mine.


    Okay, what about this one?

    Jahtruth.net

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #115 - July 23, 2010, 01:04 PM

    I'd rather not discuss the merits (or not) of religous texts if it's ok - certainly don't want to start comparing them. I don't think religous texts are relevant to todays society as my personal opinion is that they were probably meant to be a guide only for the times and places in which they were sent - this of course is just a personal speculation of mine.


    This is what I think they were attempting at doing, I don't think they were perfect for then either. I do also think that they helped for Mohammed to spread his influence and thus he would have power over people, I think this was one of his aims.
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #116 - July 23, 2010, 01:32 PM

    I don't think religous texts are relevant to todays society as my personal opinion is that they were probably meant to be a guide only for the times and places in which they were sent - this of course is just a personal speculation of mine.


    What would be the point of that?  Were people so bad then that they needed guidance, but ever since we have been good enough not to need it?  There's some pretty horrific shit going on in the world at the moment as I am sure you know.  There are scenarios which are much worse than Arabs burying baby girls in the sand, in fact there are still cases of Chinese people killing baby girls today.

    So why would a tiny percentage of the world's people, at a tiny percentage of humanities existence deserve this guidance and not me?  Especially if that guidance was only for them and not for everyone who came after all around the world?  Seems a bit of a tenuous position to hold.


    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #117 - July 23, 2010, 01:37 PM

    @abu . what are you certain enough about to make the belief practically significant?
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #118 - July 23, 2010, 01:40 PM

    I was preparing a rather hefty response to the questions I was asked by some of the posters by the time I got back to the thread it seems those questions have been answered by other posters.

    If anyone feels that the questions I have been asked have not been answered please ask again the question you would still like me to answer.

    I would like to add

    It seems a little contradictory to me that anyone can rely on a "fine tuning" argument and then turn around and say that what ever is outside our universe is not bound by the same laws as this universe.


    This word unknowable is giving me the shits, first off you can know something without understanding it, secondly there is no concept humans have encountered that they have failed to gain understanding of with time. This word unknowable seems silly in the light of this because we have not encountered some thing that is unknowable. I have only ever encountered the use of this word in relation to divinity and I would not be surprised if it was invented by religophiles as another way of “saying the mystery of god"


    Put your imagination in gear for a second please, I would like to demonstrate something Sam Harris put me wide to.

    the universe is expanding all the time, the Galaxies are moving apart all the time, eventually a time will come (billion of years) when  the light from other Galaxies will not reach this one.

    Now imagine for a moment man evolves for the very first time in this Galaxy which is now so far from other galaxies that there is no light reaching it from these distant galaxies. I think it rational to expect that the newly evolved man would eventually invent telescopes to look at the sky, the moon, and his planetary neighbors, he would invent satellites for communications and making observations about earths neighbors, he would invent space craft to go to the moon and mars, all the while it would never even occur to him that there other galaxies out there, with all his technology he would take it for granted that his Galaxy was the only one and he would be wrong.

    The point of this is that we are extremely lucky to be around at this time, could we please stop wasting our time with Gods, and get on with preventing our extinction which is certain if we remain on this planet.

    Its an enormous task mankind has ahead of it and if you must continue with your delusion because your elders and peers are scared about their own death, could you please keep it to yourself because its distracting from the real work.

    Besides

    "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
    — Mark Twain

    **BANNED**

    Stephen Roberts:    "I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours"
  • Re: The Quest for Truth: Balance.
     Reply #119 - July 23, 2010, 01:45 PM

    The point of this is that we are extremely lucky to be around at this time


    I remember watching it and thinking "Yeah, but maybe there is already stuff we cannot know, and if we'd been lucky enough to exist earlier we'd have known it.  Such as where the matter for the expansion of the universe came from".

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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