Right, as promised. I am banning myself for a while so I may not reply for a while on this thread.
----
I agree with most of you here that orthodox schools like Islamic, Jewish and of course even orthodox Christian schools should be questioned and reviewed by the government, and I personally do not support them. However I do consider benign progressive Christian faiths schools to differ from the orthodox strands. Keeping an open mind, and surveying each faith and faith school independently, I do feel there are advantages in certain strands of these benign Christian faith schools that are being overlooked, which is what I will try to illustrate in this post.
I'm a staunch atheist, but from my experience there are fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity that impacts British/European/US society and culture. I think it is easier to understand it if you've been to such liberal/open churches. You must all think I'm weird at this point, but I think it is important to have an open mind, explore and see for yourself at first-hand what all the different religions are like. Being brought up a Muslim and having a general fascination on all religions I've been to mosques in the UK, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, India and USA; to Hindu temples in the UK and India; to the beating heart of the Sikh religion at the Golden temple in Amritsar, India; to Buddhist temples and campuses in India and Thailand. And yes, I've been to Churches also in the UK, Germany and USA. I understand it's not all rosy and perfect in all Christian sects, but I do think there are strong arguments for Christian based faith schools and certain strands of Christianity.
Now, before I answer some good points raised, for those who've never been to a modern progressive Church, here is a crash course of the themes of the faith that I think are worth noting:
- Read over sermons over at ibc-hamburg.de - it is full of emotional intelligence, social intelligence and without sounding too mushy: love and unity.
See here.Here are a few extracts of the talks given:
Aug 15th Happiness: Happiness in adversity
Aug 8th Happiness: Longing for Love
Jul 18th Phlippians: Longing to Belong
Jul 4th On God's Team -- When things go wrong in the team
Jun 6th Everything You Need #6 -- You Need God's Promises
May 2nd Everything You Need #1
Apr. 25th When the Door Swings Open
Apr. 18th Leaders and the People They Lead
Apr. 11th The Fullness of Time
- Review eternitychurch.co.uk based in Guildford, and again have a listen to the podcasts. The most controversial and yet fascinating comment the pastor once made was how he said "I think not matter what religion, even Islam, we are all believing the same thing". How's that for bridging a divide, unity and love? Are you ever going to hear an Iman say that in your lifetime? (Hardly, haarrrdly likely in my opinion/experiences).
http://www.eternitychurch.co.uk/podcasts.htmlNow let's get down to business
... but whatever may have been taught there certainly never sunk into my brain. I can only speak for myself but I therefore have to ask just how susceptible kids really are to this stuff?
It's a fair point, and there is a level of susceptibility indeed. But as the Christian teacher said in the documentary, her version was where the experience is given but it is not where kids sign up on dotted line. Compare that with the mind indoctrinating Islamic class starts (in the documentary) with surah’s and one can notice the levels of indoctrination here.
Charles Clarke, the Labour politician on the program, kinda hinted that if it wasn't for the financial (and perhaps political) burden of having to close 4000 Christian schools, the Labour government would have opted to end faith schools instead of allowing the Muslims and other religions have faith schools too.
I don't think he was a fan of faith schools in principle.
Indeed. But there is a larger context of just the reasoning that "it will be unpopular". This is an example where a democratic system is a deciding factor where the "menace" put forward is unclear and fairly sweeping on all faith schools, I think. If all these years the majority Christian based faith schools have nurtured high scoring students and are woven into the fabric of a British education & culture, what is so menacing about that? I comment more on this (see below).
That said, I do see the menace of orthodox based faith based schools, especially the orthodox Muslim and Jewish ones which are terribly divisive and breeding grounds for disintegration.
No one needs a god instinctively.
... And ...
By pandering to the notion that some children "need a god"?
Well, I think there is good evidence many humans need and yearn for a God.
If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him.
- Voltaire
A good article read:
The Evolutionary Advantages of FaithAnd how about people who yearn for
a spiritualism in this very forum, even though they don't believe in a God?
My point is, I think there is going to be a yearning for religion.
Attending a CofE school was bad enough. They teach all manner of crap in their RE lessons, you sing hymns and are forced to listen to biblical stories during assemblies, etc. That type of childhood conditioning stays with people, even before I came across Islam I re-investigated Christianity and found many of the ideas which I had been fed as a child felt natural and right on a level beyond my reasoning. It's that comforting aspect which religionists seek to instill and later exploit. It's purely anecdotal that you know a pair of atheists whose kid became a religionist, the point being that humans easily fall into silly belief systems but indocrinating their sympathies at a young age disadvantages people and makes them more susceptible.
Some questions:
- What type of rubbish did they teach in the RE lessons?
- Where the bible stories at all passing any moral values or just pure indoctrination?
- For the ideas you felt natural and right, please share them, are they in any way negative?
- How many of your former friends are now apostates?
Some thoughts:
I didn't go to a faith school for primary, but it was fairly Christian in that we regularly sang songs and hyms (
" Who put the colours in the rainbow ") and were told a lot of biblical stories and took part in nativity plays. I feel these are benign things that allows children to build confidence and learn certain skills which they otherwise wouldn’t have the opportunity for: music, acting, working with others, presenting, thinking about morals, etc. Now, there are many Christian schools that do this, and take on student of other religious faith. I’d much rather a Muslim pupil goes to a benign Christian faith school than the other way around.
silly belief systems but indocrinating their sympathies at a young age disadvantages people and makes them more susceptible.
Yes I get your point, and as shown in the documentary, kids relate most things by purpose and are "natural born creationists". However, I'm not convinced the level of disadvantage here is of that high magnitude with Anglican/Christian schools as it with Islamic or Orthodox schools. Thinkfree, you've broke away and although I don't have data to back it up, I feel it is much easier for a former Christian student to apostatize than say for students at a Muslims school. The reason I think why most intelligent Christians keep their faith in my opinion is because either A) They don't have the time or aren't so bothered about the world/reality and it doesn't affect their lifestyle or humanism negatively so therefore do not bother to undergo this level of analysis B) Enjoy the cultural aspects and social belonging and practices their faith brings or C) They truly do have a spiritual side to them and can express it. Just personal opinion here though :-/
Also, please consider IraqiAthiests' sister's experience of a Catholic 6th form school.This must be the third or fourth time I've mentioned him,
but here he is again: Jon Skeet. Note how his faith is a conduit for emotional thinking, philosophy and yet at the same time he's one of the top programmers this country has. What is so wrong, practically, about him and his belief? He is an example of how religion, utilized in the best positive light, is productive and good for society. No one has yet challenged this example of Mr Skeet and how he optimizes the virtues of a decent faith. Yes, he's wrong about God - but tell me, are all his preachings a menace?
All in all, I'd like to see more evidence on how certain Christian faiths of love and unity are such a menace, because I'm not seeing this. Dawkins is right about orthodox schools, but I feel he's being disingenuous to the more progressive strands. Indeed, fundamentalist Christian faith schools are wrong - but let's be clear here, I'm talking about the progressive sects of the Christian faith, which to many people in England and the Western world is a good thing in my opinion - Jon Skeet, prime example, other friends (at least a good 30) I know in the US, Canada, Germany, England I'd say are further examples.
But then again I might be trying to be too idealistic here and as before, feel free to point out errors in the above ... I'm aware that even as an atheist I support certain strands of religions which is pretty ironic. :-/
Topic: Richard Dawkins: Faith School Menace? - Tonight (18/08) on More4