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Theme Changer

 Topic: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration

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  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #30 - October 31, 2010, 04:51 PM


    I'm not being elusive, HO. I don't see whats elusive about anything I've written.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #31 - October 31, 2010, 05:40 PM

    Atatürk is a brilliant example of positive "dictatorship". He not only pulled Turkey from the middle ages, his deeds served as an example for others too. King Zog of Albania banned the face-veil in the 30's as a result of following Turkish policies. I hope that future muslim majority countries will follow the footsteps of Turkey and future Leaders of those countries start reading more about Atatürk and get inspired by him and less from the islamic revolutionaries....

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #32 - October 31, 2010, 09:29 PM

    I'm not being elusive, HO. I don't see whats elusive about anything I've written.


    You've updated your post. But still ... meh ... you know what ... perhaps some other time.  signnvm  Smiley
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #33 - October 31, 2010, 09:30 PM

    Atatürk is a brilliant example of positive "dictatorship". He not only pulled Turkey from the middle ages, his deeds served as an example for others too. King Zog of Albania banned the face-veil in the 30's as a result of following Turkish policies. I hope that future muslim majority countries will follow the footsteps of Turkey and future Leaders of those countries start reading more about Atatürk and get inspired by him and less from the islamic revolutionaries....


    +1
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #34 - October 31, 2010, 09:40 PM

    You've updated your post. But still ... meh ... you know what ... perhaps some other time.  signnvm  Smiley


    OK mate.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #35 - October 31, 2010, 10:31 PM

    What do you think?


    I think that Ataturk wrestled the Islamic bull by the horns, and that was probably the only way that the land that formed the seat of the Ottoman Islamic empire could ever rid itself of the Ummah-itis that other Islamic nations still have a dose of.



    Yeah I share your views too.  Can't see any politicians that we are familiar with pulling that one off.  Still once the situation changes, and people have basic rights and more education, the authoritarian approach should be dropped

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #36 - October 31, 2010, 10:32 PM

    LOL! coz  I am flummoxed! the extent of brainwashing that I notice is frightening. Who said tribalism is dead?


    Who said it will ever die?

    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #37 - October 31, 2010, 10:44 PM

    Yeah I share your views too.  Can't see any politicians that we are familiar with pulling that one off.  Still once the situation changes, and people have basic rights and more education, the authoritarian approach should be dropped


    Agree. I wonder why this wasn't needed in the west, where development was more organic with the people e.g. French revolution.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #38 - October 31, 2010, 11:43 PM

    Because Europeans are genetically superior and capitalism rocks!

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #39 - November 01, 2010, 01:27 AM

    thnkyu
    Agree. I wonder why this wasn't needed in the west, where development was more organic with the people e.g. French revolution.


     because the more indivualist streak in western societies that created a fracturing of the group narrative. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #40 - November 01, 2010, 07:26 PM

    Possibly, but consider that Japanese are very collectivist also. Hmm
    ..

    Q-man, what do you make of him? Authoritative statist scum? (As you describe it, no offence, just business Grin)
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #41 - November 01, 2010, 07:39 PM

    Possibly, but consider that Japanese are very collectivist also. Hmm


    Asia didn't have the problem of Abrahamic faiths, and there was a conscious, nationwide push in Japan to emulate the West starting in the late 19th century. It was a top-down movement from Emperor Meiji onward.

    Quote
    Q-man, what do you make of him? Authoritative statist scum?


    Make of who?

    Quote
    (As you describe it, no offence, just business Grin)


    You're thinking of Michael Corleone.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #42 - November 01, 2010, 07:53 PM

    Who do you think commu lover4ever?

    Good point on Japan though  Afro
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #43 - November 01, 2010, 07:55 PM

    I really don't know who you are referring to.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #44 - November 01, 2010, 08:00 PM

    Cheesy
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #45 - November 01, 2010, 08:03 PM

    Re-read the thread - big clue! Wink

    Was meins du?  Mon ami?
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #46 - November 01, 2010, 08:04 PM

    Ataturk?

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #47 - November 01, 2010, 08:07 PM

    Thats it, getting there. Fire away gun man. 
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #48 - November 01, 2010, 08:18 PM

    I've never known what to make of the guy. He's a mixed bag. His efforts at modernizing and secularizing Turkey were laudable as was his leadership in the national liberation struggle, but he was an authoritarian and statist, and the authoritarian legacy he left led to several decades of bloody repression of political dissidents. So he did some real good, but I dunno, kinda hard for me to endorse a man who ruled with such an iron fist. I can certainly think of strongmen/dictators I like better than Ataturk.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #49 - November 01, 2010, 09:33 PM

    I've never known ... but I dunno, kinda hard for me ...


    Cheesy 

    Life is dizzyingly confusing sometimes isn't it just Q-Man?
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #50 - November 01, 2010, 09:47 PM

    When doing a historical analysis, yes. A lot easier to make decisions based on the choices that confront you here and now.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #51 - November 01, 2010, 10:10 PM

    No worries McLia, the world is a complicated place.  Goodnight amigo Afro

    (10 points if you figure it out McLia)
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #52 - November 02, 2010, 01:15 AM

    Look, man, if you think you "got me" somehow (which I don't think you did, but I believe you think so), then don't be coy about it, fuckin rub it in. If you really want to be a loyal and effective imperialist, you have to drop your pretentions to modesty-- how do you think we did it? The fact we're a bunch of in-your-face arrogant assholes helps.

    "In battle, the well-honed spork is more dangerous than the mightiest sword" -- Sun Tzu
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #53 - November 02, 2010, 04:27 AM

    I think symbolism is a very powerful way of bringing something to other peoples' attention.

    In general people always look at the obvious first and get into detail later but only if they are knowledgeable or they just remain stuck at the surface.

    If more and more muslims are seen practicing islam then this persuades others to do the same. We do not call masses sheep for nothing. So if we consider something dangerous, it will help if we could prevent it from being visible. This could help limit its spreading.

    The visible signs not only draw our attention to themselves but in actual fact draw us towards themselves. This is why people use signs and slogans.

    So if we wish to reduce influence of religions in our societies then we must not allow religious symbols and slogans that may increase influence of religions.

    This is why we must not allow certain rights for religious people that may cause us serious troubles later.

    Many things including burqas are seen as symbols of islamic power by majority of muslims so we need to be very careful when muslims make any demands as to how they are going to affect society at large.

    Burqas are signs of isolation from others as far as the point of view of outsiders is concerned. It is same as putting up barriers in a society. In sunni islam, family is destroyed because brothers in law cannot be trusted with their sisters in law. Even brothers and sister cannot be trusted. I wonder if mother and son can be trusted or father and daughter. Who do you trust in islam is difficult to see.

    I wonder why muslims have reached such a state of distrust? Is it because they lack freedom and knowledge that makes a human being a better person?  

    Today we can see women are after women and men after men I wonder what can burqas do in such cases when there is no need for burqas in islam between people of same sex?

    Also men can wear burqas and be amongst women, so how do we ensure that it is a woman under the burqa not man?

     
      

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #54 - November 02, 2010, 05:29 AM

    Quote from: billy
    Well, Ataturk was an illiberal man. He banned certain visible symbols and manifestations of Islam in Turkish society. He was more vehement about that than practically any politician alive today, either in Islamic countries, or in Europe. If he was alive today, he would be called by some an 'Islamophobe', a fascist, and a 'bigot'


    And doubtless you would be foremost among those hurling those epithets at him. Attaturk's "secularization" of Turkey of course  failed at the end of the day because he did not close all the mosques. Sharia is like a Jack in the box with a broken lid which can only be kept in the box by constantly sitting on it. Once the pressure is released Jack'll just pop right out again with the same old malevolent grin on his face.

    The mosque: the most epic display of collective douchbaggery, arrogance and delusion
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #55 - November 02, 2010, 09:15 AM

    DH, the French revolutionaries didn't close the Churches down either, but there is no hope for the church to gain it's power back and making it mandatory to go in church Cheesy.. There is no chance to bring back any kind of islamic rule in turkey either. AKP, the ruling party in Turkey is islamic in it's core regarding basic values, but it is not islamic as Hamas. AKP is like the Christian-democrats and Conservatives around Europe.

    Just look at the sun and the moon, rotating around the earth perfectly! Out of all the never ending space in the universe, the sun and moon ended up close to earth rotating around it perfectly.!!

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #56 - November 02, 2010, 12:02 PM

    And doubtless you would be foremost among those hurling those epithets at him.


    Wilting, lame, flaccid remark - doubtlessly so Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #57 - November 02, 2010, 12:18 PM

    Agree. I wonder why this wasn't needed in the west, where development was more organic with the people e.g. French revolution.


    What  wasn't needed in "western Europe"? The destruction of the economic power of the Catholic church, the discharge of monastic orders and the outright persecution of the clergy in the Reign of terror?

     "Laicite" Not a Turkish word.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #58 - November 02, 2010, 02:19 PM

    As I understand it, secularism is not about getting rid of religions root and branch rather it is all about getting people to realise how to live together progressively in the same country within a space each individual can have. Otherwise you get into other peoples' space and that creates problems.

    The difficult part is educating all people in a country to be able to recognise that fact. This effectively limits religious practice and those who take religions too seriously that they must do all a religion tells them to do cannot therefore live with others who have different beliefs than themselves.

    Islam is a problem in two ways a)it has far too much religious ritualism as compared to other reliigons and also it is taken to extremes by most of its so called followers.

    For example, bathing is necessary, ablution is necessary, daily five prayers are necessary, fasting is necessary, a lot of things are forbidden which do not allow time and ways for people to earn a living for themselves.

    Learning to live like muhammad takes a lot of time and then puttinmg that into practice only makes matters worse because by doing so people regress rather than progress.

    Since islam puts far too many security measures for its own safety and survival it is not easy to by pass islam for wordly reasons. This is why muslims are a huge problem because they try to do all that they think is islam and end up where they are and then blame the rest of humanity for their ills.

    Unless all people in the world join in and put an effective pressure on muslims in each and evry way they can to help muslims break away from this situation I do not think much is going to help reform islam and muslims.

    This is why muslim scholars when they come up with some worthy idea we must help spread it.

    There are two majors ideas now on the table a)islam is not a comprehensive way of life that controls each and every aspect and word and deed in one's life and b)not each and every word or deed of muhamamd is sunnah that must be followed to the dot. With these two sticks we can beat up all muslims who believe islam is a comprehensive way of life or that sunnah means living like muhammad. I want exmuslims in particular to pay much more attention to these two things and learn to use them on muslims.

    The points mention will prove very effective against all muslims if we could put them across to muslims in sensible discussions. Telling muslim to leave islam is not a good way in my view when it comes getting them to think for themselves. The better way in my view is to get muslims to try and contexualise fundamental islamic religious texts eg the quran and the hadith.

    Let us create a situation wherein muslims openly discuss sectarian beliefs between themselves that will help them educate themselves about islam and they will be able to see for themselves whether islam is sensible or not.

    Let me bring in some issues between shias and sunnies for example.

    Sunnies respect all companions of muhammad but shias distinmguish between them.

    Sunnies respect all wives of muhammad but shias distinguish between them.

    shias believe ali is the top most muslim amongst companions of the prophet but sunnies believe it is abubakar. If we get in to nitty gritty of all this we will see these little differences lead to major divisions. This is why both shias and sunnies have their own ahadith books because they do not trust each others sources.

    By discussing this issue we can see which sect is more logical regarding islam. This kind of discussion will help educate muslims to think logically and that logical then can be used as regard other matters relatimng islam also and so little by little muslims can become aware of their own situation without anyone else telling them what is wrong with islam.         

    I am a student of quran and islam and not an exmuslim.
  • Re: Headscarf row mars Turkey's anniversary celebration
     Reply #59 - November 02, 2010, 09:17 PM

    .. fuckin rub it in ...


    Oh my, confused and cracking under the pressure! Bad hair day? Cheesy

    I think symbolism is a very powerful way of bringing something to other peoples' attention.

    In general people always look at the obvious first and get into detail later but only if they are knowledgeable or they just remain stuck at the surface.

    If more and more muslims are seen practicing islam then this persuades others to do the same. We do not call masses sheep for nothing. So if we consider something dangerous, it will help if we could prevent it from being visible. This could help limit its spreading.

    The visible signs not only draw our attention to themselves but in actual fact draw us towards themselves. This is why people use signs and slogans.

    So if we wish to reduce influence of religions in our societies then we must not allow religious symbols and slogans that may increase influence of religions.

    This is why we must not allow certain rights for religious people that may cause us serious troubles later.

    Many things including burqas are seen as symbols of islamic power by majority of muslims so we need to be very careful when muslims make any demands as to how they are going to affect society at large.


    Agreed

    I wonder why muslims have reached such a state of distrust? Is it because they lack freedom and knowledge that makes a human being a better person?   

    Yes, I think the West is getting more clearer on this point. At least with certain articles like in The Economist.

    Today we can see women are after women and men after men I wonder what can burqas do in such cases when there is no need for burqas in islam between people of same sex?


    Well, for the women they are still denied to show beauty. For the men … guess they can express theirs.

    Also men can wear burqas and be amongst women, so how do we ensure that it is a woman under the burqa not man?


    Why would a Muslim man want to do something so awkward and difficult, under normal circumstances? I remember a BBC reporter wanted to once for security reasons, Mr John Simpson I think.

    And doubtless you would be foremost among those hurling those epithets at him. Attaturk's "secularization" of Turkey of course  failed at the end of the day because he did not close all the mosques. Sharia is like a Jack in the box with a broken lid which can only be kept in the box by constantly sitting on it. Once the pressure is released Jack'll just pop right out again with the same old malevolent grin on his face.


    So why are things looking promising in Bangladesh right now? Plently of mosques still open there I can confirm.
    What  wasn't needed in "western Europe"? The destruction of the economic power of the Catholic church, the discharge of monastic orders and the outright persecution of the clergy in the Reign of terror?


    Ah okay, thanks! Afro

    This kind of discussion will help educate muslims to think logically and that logical then can be used as regard other matters relatimng islam also and so little by little muslims can become aware of their own situation without anyone else telling them what is wrong with islam.         


    Unfortunately my experience has been that Islam severely limits open thought, so discussion about Islam by Muslims is very difficult to achieve (though I welcome whatever progress is made). What is easier and I've seen it work day in day out, is cognitive dissonance. Make Islam a very small part in their lives, do whatever possible to limit it's symbolism and it spreading, and you'll find Muslim kids growing up less in touch with the Muslim culture and learning more towards the West. You see this every time a Muslim girl tries to wear revealing Western/Indian clothes, or when a moderate Muslim bloke joins up to the facebook group 'I love Kim Kardashian ass'. Astaghfirullah!
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