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 Topic: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges

 (Read 13111 times)
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  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #30 - November 07, 2010, 11:43 AM
    Quote from: Kenan on November 06, 2010, 06:58 PM
    Because it would cause a major case of butthurt?
    I am not an expert in the field by any means, however as far as I know Islamic banking is mostly based on "Murabaha" which involves the bank buying a certain product or commodity or whatever instead of the client and than selling it to the client at a price higher than the purchase price which is to be paid after a certain period of time has elapsed.

    Well, quelle surprise  - that is exactly what interest is all about. These guys clearly must think that Allah is a fuckwad retard who is going to fall for a cheap nomenclatural trick. Blasphemers!


    Its all about identity politics and leveraging Islam at the end of the day - leveraging it to non Muslims and leveraging it to Muslims.

    Stick sharia codes right up in the most important cost of every individuals lives, their mortgages, that they spend 25 years paying off, and you get Islam's nose right into the deepest nook and cranny of a Muslims secular life.

    Islamic identity politics is about injecting Islam into everything.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #31 - November 08, 2010, 07:38 PM
    Shit, have to go to uni this year before the higher fees kick in...
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #32 - November 11, 2010, 07:57 AM
    http://politicalscrapbook.net/2010/11/nus-protest-front-pages/
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #33 - November 11, 2010, 11:12 AM
    In that link
    Quote
    Sod the riot, I’m more interested in the Cream Cake Diet – AT LAST, it is here!

    Thank the lord for the Express.

     
     Cheesy

    I hate the idea of it raising to 9k (which is bullshit if one includes MA)
    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #34 - November 11, 2010, 04:45 PM
    I really should have gone to the protests. Looked like fun.  Smiley
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #35 - November 11, 2010, 04:48 PM
    *throws glass bottle and bunny slippers at thread and legs it*
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #36 - November 11, 2010, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: HighOctane on November 06, 2010, 09:29 PM
    Well, they can handle this in the US.


    We do?

    Quote
    At the end of the day, I think students who will be able to earn enough to pay it back, should go to uni, rather than get in debt and not pay it back. People who don't go to uni should specialize in industries they can be productive in.


    So then education for education's sake becomes a luxury for the rich again.
    fuck you
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #37 - November 11, 2010, 04:53 PM
    Quote from: GodIsNotGreat on November 11, 2010, 04:45 PM
    I really should have gone to the protests. Looked like fun.  Smiley


    It was fun  Afro
    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #38 - November 11, 2010, 05:02 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 04:51 PM

    So then education for education's sake becomes a luxury for the rich again.


    Why should the tax payer have to fork out money for someone who wants to study unproductive tosh or something that he will not reap the benefits of ?   
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #39 - November 11, 2010, 05:07 PM
    Because having an educated, thinking, creative populace is a good thing, and there is no good reason the intelligentsia should be limited to those from wealthy backgrounds.
    fuck you
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #40 - November 11, 2010, 05:11 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 05:07 PM
    Because having an educated, thinking, creative populace is a good thing, and there is no good reason the intelligentsia should be limited to those from wealthy backgrounds.


    Degrees in theology, law, media studies or history are not going to give you an educated, thinking, creative populace.  Only people who expect to be given good jobs for spending four years studying useless stuff.  The courses that should be subsidised are the healthcare, engineering and scientific or economic related ones.  Vocational training and learning trades should also be encouraged.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #41 - November 11, 2010, 05:14 PM
    Gotcha, smart but poor kids should not be subsidized to learn the humanities or social sciences-- only rich kids get to do that.

    And most of the Muslim world puts a very big emphasis on "practical" education like engineering-- hasn't done a whole lot for them. Having a broadly-educated populace is a good thing.

    Quote from: ras111 on November 11, 2010, 05:11 PM
    Degrees in theology, law, media studies or history are not going to give you an educated, thinking, creative populace.  


    Yeah, who needs history for education? It's not like you can develop any critical analysis of current social issues from studying history. Roll Eyes

    And law, yes, only wealthy people should get to learn that, since it's wealthy people making the laws in their own interests anyways.
    fuck you
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #42 - November 11, 2010, 05:25 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 05:14 PM
    Gotcha, smart but poor kids should not be subsidized to learn the humanities or social sciences-- only rich kids get to do that.



     Roll Eyes
    The poor kids can get a part time job as the rich kids would do if their parents did not give them the money.  And if they are poor then they should get their priorities straight and do something that can help them become rich.

    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 05:14 PM
    And most of the Muslim world puts a very big emphasis on "practical" education like engineering-- hasn't done a whole lot for them. Having a broadly-educated populace is a good thing.


    We are talking about tertiary education.  An engineering student should not be expected to sit for an exam on Plato

    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 05:14 PM

    Yeah, who needs history for education? It's not like you can develop any critical analysis of current social issues from studying history. Roll Eyes


    History is important during the primary and secondary stages of education.  If one wishes to continue to tertiary education and specialize in, then it is none of my concern.  However there should be no whinging once it is discovered that there can only be so many history teachers and diplomats. 

    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 05:14 PM

    And law, yes, only wealthy people should get to learn that, since it's wealthy people making the laws in their own interests anyways.


    If there are posts for lawyers then they would do well to learn it.  Spending 6 years doing a degree in law to work as a receptionist is pointless and does not deserve subsidising.


    Besides, one does not have to go to university to be broadly educated.  Books and the internet are good places to learn for one's leisure and they can be afforded by virtually everyone
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #43 - November 11, 2010, 05:34 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 11, 2010, 05:11 PM
    Degrees in theology, law, media studies or history are not going to give you an educated, thinking, creative populace.  Only people who expect to be given good jobs for spending four years studying useless stuff.  The courses that should be subsidised are the healthcare, engineering and scientific or economic related ones.  Vocational training and learning trades should also be encouraged.


    hey i'm a scientist but i'm mightily releived that there are people becoming experts in law, history, journalism etc. - they can make a valuable contribution to society, and the better educated they are the higher potential for them to contribute to society in a positive critical/creative manner. Christ help us if the only people that have good educations are doctors, scientists, engineers, bankers etc.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #44 - November 11, 2010, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 11, 2010, 05:25 PM
    The poor kids can always get part time jobs, as would the rich kids if their parents don't give them the money.


    I had a full-time job and I'm still in goddamn debt, while rich kids who weren't as smart as me were spending all their free-time partying. Fuck that shit. If there really is to be a commitment to public education then if you're smart enough, you should be able to study what you want to on the public dime.

    Quote
    We are talking about tertiary education.  A person studying engineering should not have to sit for exams in philosophy.

     

    Why not? Western tertiary education has traditionally been about creating a well-educated person all around, not simply in their field of study. It's only in recent decades that's changed, and largely because of attitudes like yours in society.

    Quote
    There shouldn't be any whinging once it is discovered that there can be only so many history teachers and diplomats.  If one wishes to specialise in history for one's own pleasure, then the tax payer should not pay for it.


    Why does the first sentence necessitate the second? One could make entry/public funding for certain degrees more competitive than others, based on job market needs, so that a working-class student who wants public funding to study history would have to have higher scores/qualifications to get into a history program than someone from a similar background who wants to study science/tech/engineering/medicine. But that doesn't mean public funding for humanities and social science degrees should be completely eliminated.
    fuck you
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #45 - November 11, 2010, 05:40 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on November 11, 2010, 05:34 PM
    hey i'm a scientist but i'm mightily releived that there are people becoming experts in law, history, journalism etc. - they can make a valuable contribution to society, and the better educated they are the higher potential for them to contribute to society in a positive critical/creative manner. Christ help us if the only people that have good educations are doctors, scientists, engineers, bankers etc.


    I never denied that those people with those qualifications make valuable contributions to society and that they are not needed.  The problem is the attitude about getting degrees and that there are too many people who are doing those courses for the sake of getting a degree as well as the fact that they are not going to find the jobs they trained for.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #46 - November 11, 2010, 05:51 PM
    ok i've just been reading the rest of the thread. but i don't see what's sensible in creating an environment in which only the wealthy get to study these things - because that's essentially what you're proposing will lead to. people from poorer less-privelaged backgrounds also have the potential to make valuable critical/creative contributions that someone from a wealthy background may not.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #47 - November 11, 2010, 05:56 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 05:38 PM
    I had a full-time job and I'm still in goddamn debt, while rich kids who weren't as smart as me were spending all their free-time partying. Fuck that shit.


    And?  Do you feel degraded in any way because of that?  I didn't and I barely had enough to buy lunch and a couple of bottles of wine in the weekends.   Depends also on why you are in goddamned debt.  

    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 05:38 PM

     If there really is to be a commitment to public education then if you're smart enough, you should be able to study what you want to on the public dime.


    No you should be subsidised in certain areas if you are truly exceptional and showing a lot of promise and there is a chance that your chosen area will lead you somewhere stable where you can make a huge contribution using what your learned.
     
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 05:38 PM
     
    Why not? Western tertiary education has traditionally been about creating a well-educated person all around, not simply in their field of study. It's only in recent decades that's changed, and largely because of attitudes like yours in society.



    Because the subjects we are specialising in are pretty hard as it is.  Perhaps had you specialised you would not have appreciated being tested on subjects that are of no use to you career wise and having you waste your time studying them just to forget them the minute after the exam ends.   No need to go to university to be broad minded.  There are books and there is the internet..  They become far more interesting that way.

    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 05:38 PM

    Why does the first sentence necessitate the second? One could make entry/public funding for certain degrees more competitive than others, based on job market needs, so that a working-class student who wants public funding to study history


    Why should a working class student be studying history when there are other things he could be specialising in that are far more rewarding? Why does any student have to go university to learn history?

    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 05:38 PM

    would have to have higher scores/qualifications to get into a history program than someone from a similar background who wants to study science/tech/engineering/medicine. But that doesn't mean public funding for humanities and social science degrees should be completely eliminated.


    I did not say completely eliminated but reduced.  Most people are simply there to get a degree after their name.  It is a waste of their time and the tax payer's money.  
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #48 - November 11, 2010, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on November 11, 2010, 05:51 PM
    ok i've just been reading the rest of the thread. but i don't see what's sensible in creating an environment in which only the wealthy get to study these things - because that's essentially what you're proposing will lead to. people from poorer less-privelaged backgrounds also have the potential to make valuable critical/creative contributions that someone from a wealthy background may not.


    Did I ever say that people from poorer backgrounds could not make those contributions?  But then again how is he going to make a contribution if there is no situation in which he can apply what he learned in the first place?  If a poor student wishes to take a big risk and specialise in something that will not necessarily lead to a job in that area, it is his choice.  I shouldn't be made to foot the bill for something I do not see as being worth it, as much as I wouldn't want to pay for the former rich kid's health bills after he ends up in hospital because of substance abuse.

    This all boils down to the attitudes and the over importance place on university degrees.  Today the priority is not getting an education it is getting a degree and that is what the trouble is.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #49 - November 11, 2010, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 11, 2010, 05:56 PM
    No need to go to university to be broad minded.  There are books and there is the internet..  They become far more interesting that way.

    Why does a working class student have to go university to learn history?


    You don't have to go to university to learn history, but being taught history in university will expose you to different areas you might not otherwise study. Learning subjects on your own can very easily lead to tunnelvision because you are completely self-directing your course of study.

    Granted, almost all my knowledge of history is self-taught, but I think there are still benefits to learning such subjects in the "traditional" way.

    Quote
    I did not say completely eliminated   


    Yes you did. You said:

    Quote
    If one wishes to specialise in history for one's own pleasure, then the tax payer should not pay for it.


    Then edited it out of your post after I called you on it.

    Quote from: ras111 on November 11, 2010, 06:02 PM
    Did I ever say that people from poorer backgrounds could not make those contributions?  But then again how is he going to make a contribution if there is no situation in which he can apply what he learned in the first place?


    I studied philosophy. Am I a philosophy professor? No, but the abstract analysis and critical thinking skills I learned in my studies have helped me in my current job and in life in general. Just because you don't get a job directly related to your field of study immediately after graduating does not mean those studies did not lead to that person using what they learned to make a contribution to society or their own lives.

    That being said, if I had it to do all over again, knowing what I know now, I woulda dropped out of university the minute I lost my Army scholarship.  grin12

    Quote
    This all boils down to the attitudes and the over importance place on university degrees.  Today the priority is not getting an education it is getting a degree and that is what the trouble is.


    There are a lot of jobs out there that just require a college degree and it doesn't matter what your major was.
    fuck you
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #50 - November 11, 2010, 06:14 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 06:06 PM
    You don't have to go to university to learn history, but being taught history in university will expose you to different areas you might not otherwise study. Learning subjects on your own can very easily lead to tunnelvision because you are completely self-directing your course of study.


    And you think going to university solves that?   You think many people who go there do not have their preformed interpretations of what happened?   Not to mention the subjectivity and potential bias from the part of the lecturer?  Tunnel vision?  Read books by alternative authors at home.  That's what I do when I want to read about international events.

    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 06:06 PM

    Granted, almost all my knowledge of history is self-taught, but I think there are still benefits to learning such subjects in the "traditional" way.


    Learn them the traditional way, just don't whinge when you find that you don't have a lot of money and expect to find a good well paid job at the end of it as most who go for those courses do.


    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 06:06 PM

    Then edited it out of your post after I called you on it.



    I said that it should not be eliminated for people who have proven to be exceptional and when their skills are in demand and useful for all of society.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #51 - November 11, 2010, 06:18 PM
    Quote
    Did I ever say that people from poorer backgrounds could not make those contributions?


    no you didn't, but the consequences of what you're proposing is that people from poorer backgrounds will not be able, or much less likely to be able, to have a say/make contributions in vital arenas such as law, media etc.  I know that your stance is not aimed at being discriminatory toward poorer people, in fact on the contrary you might have their best interests at heart. But what i'm trying to get at is whether you've overlooked the benefit of having poorer/less priveliged people having their say/making their contributions to arenas that bear a significant impact on society.

    Quote
    But then again how is he going to make a contribution if there is no situation in which he can apply what he learned in the first place?


    why is a poorer student less likely to get a good job in their chosen feild of study compared to a more wealthy student ?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #52 - November 11, 2010, 06:23 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 06:06 PM

    I studied philosophy. Am I a philosophy professor? No, but the abstract analysis and critical thinking skills I learned in my studies have helped me in my current job and in life in general.


    Did you have to go to university to study philosophy and develop those skills?  I know quite a lot people who never went to university and developed them from elsewhere.  And they are far smarter and deep than many graduates I know.  Emphasis on those skills should be made during primary and secondary education.

    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 06:06 PM

    Just because you don't get a job directly related to your field of study immediately after graduating does not mean those studies did not lead to that person using what they learned to make a contribution to society or their own lives.


    The point is that those skills should be taught to people earlier in life, when they are still young.  Primary and secondary education should be free and mandatory for all people, tertiary education is a different story.    

     
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 06:06 PM

    There are a lot of jobs out there that just require a college degree and it doesn't matter what your major was.


    Only because of the overrating of getting a degree and the fact that there are too many graduates.  Being a graduate does not mean that you are capable of using what you learned.  It means that you were capable of passing an exam and doing an assignment.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #53 - November 11, 2010, 06:24 PM
    Quote from: ras111 on November 11, 2010, 06:14 PM
    I said that it should not be eliminated for people who have proven to be exceptional and when their skills are in demand and useful for all of society.


    Yeah, AFTER you threw the post of yours I just quoted down the memory hole.
    fuck you
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #54 - November 11, 2010, 06:38 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on November 11, 2010, 06:18 PM
    or much less likely to be able, to have a say/make contributions in vital arenas such as law, media etc.  


    That is easily solved if the said students scores above average marks in entry examinations, theoretically that should not be too affected by one's economic situation .  Exceptional students should be given scholarships, the average ones should not be entitled to them.

    Quote from: abuyunus2 on November 11, 2010, 06:18 PM

     But what i'm trying to get at is whether you've overlooked the benefit of having poorer/less priveliged people having their say/making their contributions to arenas that bear a significant impact on society.


    It depends on which arenas you are referring to.  Till now I cannot see why they cannot have the same impact if they enroll in technical courses.

    Quote from: abuyunus2 on November 11, 2010, 06:18 PM
    why is a poorer student less likely to get a good job compared to a more wealthy student ?


    Poorer students are not less likely to get the jobs, its just that certain jobs are not readily available as there is little use for them and if a student is not fortunate enough to have a wealthy sponsor or daddy's dosh, his priorities should be to increase his chances of becoming financially stable.  That is why many science and technical courses should be subsidised because they are in demand and the poor student will have a good chance of getting a good job, changing his situation as well as making the contributions you are talking about
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #55 - November 11, 2010, 06:44 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 06:06 PM
    That being said, if I had it to do all over again, knowing what I know now, I woulda dropped out of university the minute I lost my Army scholarship.  grin12

    why?
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  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #56 - November 11, 2010, 06:45 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 06:24 PM
    Yeah, AFTER you threw the post of yours I just quoted down the memory hole.


    The post is not down memory whole,  I accidentally replaced it with an addition and rewrote it when I realised, in a way that was truer to my opinions

    My initial sentence was
    "If one wishes to specialise in history for one's own pleasure, then the tax payer should not pay for it."

    By this I meant that people wishing to study history simply as a hobby should not expect to have the tax payer funding them to do it.  I don't have the right to demand public money to be able to pay my gym membership fee.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #57 - November 11, 2010, 06:49 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on November 11, 2010, 06:44 PM
    why?


    Cause I'm still paying on the student loans I took out to finance it and I only ever had one job that required a college degree and that was for a few months and was low-paying project work without any benefits.

    Financially, it would have made a lot more sense for me to have gone into a trade apprenticeship program of some sort.
    fuck you
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #58 - November 11, 2010, 07:39 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on November 11, 2010, 06:49 PM
    Financially, it would have made a lot more sense for me to have gone into a trade apprenticeship program of some sort.


    Exactly. They are darn useful and they work. Germany has one of the best apprenticeship programs, and we should promote it more in the UK.
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Muslim challenge to tuition fee interest charges
     Reply #59 - November 11, 2010, 07:46 PM
    The student loans are going up too, and the 25-year cut off date will stay... so I don't see it making that much difference tbh...

    Though I am curious about whether anyone who joins uni before the higher fees come in will have to pay them once they do, or if they will still be on the old scheme?
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