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 Topic: 9/11

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  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #30 - September 11, 2011, 04:02 PM
    Why do we constantly need to compete over each tragedy? Why can't we accept that we mourn those we care about? America was savagely attacked by Muslims on this day, they have the right to mourn and to be angry about it.
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #31 - September 11, 2011, 04:10 PM
    I was in NYC. A recent grad, living there, between Queens, Brooklyn and Manhattan, looking for work. Had been in the Wall St. area the day before at an interview at a recruiters' office 2.5 blocks from the WTC. Afterwards... gave blood, took pictures, talked to family members of victims, lived through the aftermath.

    It was not a time period that I glorify either. Can't stand the way it is an event used by many people to pump up tribalistic nationalism, and to cheaply pull up emotions out of people.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #32 - September 11, 2011, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: Jesus Christ on September 11, 2011, 04:02 PM
    Why do we constantly need to compete over each tragedy? Why can't we accept that we mourn those we care about? America was savagely attacked by Muslims on this day, they have the right to mourn and to be angry about it.


    I never hear much about competing over tragedy, all I hear is everyone thinking 9/11 was the worst thing that ever happened. But the event has been hijacked and is being used to pull emotions out of people as allat. I don't think America has any intention of trying to overcome it and move on, not until "justice" has been done, it won't be done because you can't satisfy the loss of life with further loss of life. I don't think on the whole people have learnt from 9/11. I think those lost relatives and so forth it was a different event to what people see it as in general.
    "The words that oscillate between nonsense and supreme meaning are the oldest and truest." - C.G. Jung
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #33 - September 11, 2011, 05:00 PM
    Grief whoring is the natural consequence of being obliged to keep a conforming opinion on spectacles not apprehended by one's choosing.

    Discuss.

    (Points will be deducted upon reference to grammatical structure.)
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #34 - September 11, 2011, 05:59 PM
    Quote from: toor on September 11, 2011, 05:00 PM
    (Points will be deducted upon reference to grammatical structure.)

    2 points deducted for that sentence alone.


    I was on a little Caribbean island, sitting in the verandah of the local shop/bar.

    The news was garbled at first, as much speculation as hard fact. My ex-girlfriend called from London to say that there were rumours of Canary Wharf being blown up as well.

    We sat there all day listening to the news and drinking beer.


    I thought it might be the moment America, a young nation, started growing up. I was wrong, sadly. It took me a long time to realise quite how many people had died and quite how awfully.

    It was in the year after 9/11 that hijabs started appearing in numbers on the streets of London, and I realised then that it was going to be a long, hard fight - a fight that the Iraq war only made longer and harder.
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #35 - September 11, 2011, 06:05 PM
    I was on the University of Calgary campus, it was my second day of university. I entered the library and noticed they had TV's out everywhere and there were crowds gathered around them. I joined in, it was CNN, saw the first tower on fire... thought it was some explosion, didn't know a plane had hit it. 5 min in saw the second plane come in and hit the other tower. I knew right off the bat it was Muslims, and while I gasped like everyone else... part of me actually had a smug satisfaction and was thinking "well they had it coming". I'm ashamed of that thought to this day. I was a Muslim back then, and was one of those kids that regularly watched Chechen Mujahideen videos and had a mind corrupted by Islamic tribalism.
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #36 - September 11, 2011, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: Jesus Christ on September 11, 2011, 04:02 PM
    Why do we constantly need to compete over each tragedy? Why can't we accept that we mourn those we care about? America was savagely attacked by Muslims on this day, they have the right to mourn and to be angry about it.

    Hmmm… Indeed. In fact, I believe the only viewpoint we should take is unconditional solidarity with ALL victims.
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #37 - September 11, 2011, 06:34 PM
    Quote from: Jesus Christ on September 11, 2011, 04:02 PM
    America was savagely attacked by Muslims on this day, they have the right to mourn and to be angry about it.

    Don't forget that Muslims fell victim to the attacks.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #38 - September 11, 2011, 07:29 PM
    Quote from: saleri on September 11, 2011, 03:54 PM
    just posted something really offensive and decided to take it down,

    suffice it to say there is much worse stuff in the world and to me it just seems like political powers try to ensure that people feel this was the most awful day and purposely leave the 9/11 wound open so as to use sentiment and trauma to rally up irrational anger against people who were completely innocent and suffer much worse than America on 9/11


    It was the largest single attack on the soil of the world's greatest imperial power at the time, perpetrated by irregulars-- which would necessarily lead to far-reaching consequences. That in and of itself makes it a bigger deal than all the other tragedies around the world.

    Other people in other countries feel the same suffering when they lose people in tragedies or have other circumstances befall them, but not all of those countries and circumstances have the potential to lead to increased aggression from the world's most powerful country and from their vast and far-flung global enemies and allies which leads to a bloody, destablizing, decades-long war with disparate irregular forces in every corner of the globe with no end in sight.
    fuck you
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #39 - September 11, 2011, 07:49 PM
    10 years? Wow I feel old.
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #40 - September 11, 2011, 07:50 PM
    9/11 was an inside job.
    I shouldn't be here. Really. Shaytan SWT deluded ALL of us. Amen.
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #41 - September 11, 2011, 07:52 PM
     Cheesy
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #42 - September 11, 2011, 08:42 PM
    I was 12 years old. I remember exactly where I was sitting. My mom and I were preparing to go out,and we went to the living room where the TV was on. The news woman said that there was a plane that hit the WTC by mistake,and at that same moment,the second plane hit the second tower. We were shocked of course. We saw the two towers collapse after that. There was also the other planes and the Pentagon. My mom said that there might be a third world war because of this. She called my dad at work and told him the news. It was crazy. The whole thing was weird. I mean who'd come up with such a sick idea,crashing two planes at two towers? Evil bastards.

    Quote from: saleri on September 11, 2011, 03:54 PM
    suffice it to say there is much worse stuff in the world and to me it just seems like political powers try to ensure that people feel this was the most awful day and purposely leave the 9/11 wound open so as to use sentiment and trauma to rally up irrational anger against people who were completely innocent and suffer much worse than America on 9/11

    +1

    Look at what these cows are doing:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/september-11-attacks/8755834/911-anniversary-Muslim-protesters-burn-US-flag-outside-embassy-in-London.html

    Quote
    One said: "You will always face suffering, you will always face humiliation, unless you withdraw your troops from Muslim lands."


    9/11 victims weren't soldiers at war. They were innocent civilians you fucking morons -_-



  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #43 - September 11, 2011, 11:27 PM
    On an individual basis 9/11 was a tragedy, on the whole though it was about time America got what was coming to it. You reap what you sow.

    I don't buy any of the conspiracy theories whole hog but neither do I buy the official version 100%.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #44 - September 11, 2011, 11:41 PM
    Quote from: Free Spirit on September 11, 2011, 11:27 PM
    On an individual basis 9/11 was a tragedy, on the whole though it was about time America got what was coming to it. You reap what you sow.

    I don't buy any of the conspiracy theories whole hog but neither do I buy the official version 100%.




    OH! YEAH! THAT'S WHAT GOD SAID!


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #45 - September 12, 2011, 12:18 AM
    In the last 50 years the US has killed (literally) millions of civilians (that includes women and children by the way) in other countries - Germany, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Somalia, Iraq (twice) and has funded or supported slaughter in places like Chile, Panama and Nicaragua. The mass murder in New York on 9/11 was terrible but when placed in the balance of total civilian casualties the US total is still smaller by a very big margin.

    Dont get me wrong, I'd rather the guy with the big stick be the American than any mad mullah but all I am saying is that if America behaved as though the citizens of other countries were as sacred as their own then they might be less likely to be attacked.

    I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #46 - September 12, 2011, 01:23 AM
    None of that matters. A lot of people die and you say that's fine because people other than themselves have killed people? How the fuck are you better than your description?
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #47 - September 12, 2011, 01:27 AM
    Quote from: Free Spirit on September 12, 2011, 12:18 AM
    In the last 50 years the US has killed (literally) millions of civilians (that includes women and children by the way) in other countries - Germany, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Somalia, Iraq (twice) and has funded or supported slaughter in places like Chile, Panama and Nicaragua. The mass murder in New York on 9/11 was terrible but when placed in the balance of total civilian casualties the US total is still smaller by a very big margin.

    Dont get me wrong, I'd rather the guy with the big stick be the American than any mad mullah but all I am saying is that if America behaved as though the citizens of other countries were as sacred as their own then they might be less likely to be attacked.




    So do you believe the massacre of Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica is also "understandable"?
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #48 - September 12, 2011, 01:42 AM
    Ooh, is it that time? Where did I leave my pitchfork and torch?
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #49 - September 12, 2011, 02:26 AM
    For people who believe that America had it coming, this is a really pathetic and nasty statement- America, or any country/religion/nation/race, isn't an entity to attack, it's just people on the whole. Is it fair that random people get killed? Are you so ignorant that you think every single person in America supported and condoned any negative actions by America? Do you seriously think that the acts of the country to dominate others, to gain power and wealth even benefits the mass majority? Yes, if you say a certain person had it coming, I can somewhat see where you're coming from, but to say 'America had it coming' is as perposterous as me killing any random white guy cos a different white guy killed someone I love!

    As for the event, I don't care any more or less than all the other bad shit in the world. Politics is something new to me and too complicated for me to understand. I feel a detached sadness for any people who die painfully/needlessly but nothing more. I think the even is more painful for people who actually lost someone but I don't really understand why people get so over dramatic at the 9/11 deaths and not every other bad shit going on in the world.
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #50 - September 12, 2011, 02:29 AM
    Was in computer school when the attacks happened. Was looking over course material when one of the students came in saying a plane flew into the north tower. Later on the class took a break and some of the students who were listening to walkmans said another plan flew into the south tower. The strange thing about this is exactly two weeks before, I went down to NYC for the day with an with a former teacher assistant from high school and we went in the North Tower to meet her daughter on the 92nd floor.

    I heard from my old TA in the evening and she told me her daughter was ok. The night before the attacks the daughter was up making a cake for her sister and because of this she arrived after the towers were struck.

    Some of my friends and a family member that commuted or worked near the towers were also fine.





  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #51 - September 12, 2011, 02:42 AM
    Quote from: Jesus Christ on September 12, 2011, 01:27 AM
    So do you believe the massacre of Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica is also "understandable"?


    Bad comparison.

    9/11 attacks were on economic, military and political targets (all of which have been considered legit targets by the militaries of Western nation-states in conventional wars), as opposed to indiscriminate slaughter of civilians (which Islamic terrorists also do, but I don't think 9/11 was one of them).
    fuck you
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #52 - September 12, 2011, 02:58 AM
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on September 12, 2011, 02:42 AM
    Bad comparison.

    9/11 attacks were on economic, military and political targets (all of which have been considered legit targets by the militaries of Western nation-states in conventional wars), as opposed to indiscriminate slaughter of civilians (which Islamic terrorists also do, but I don't think 9/11 was one of them).


    Disagree.

    Whatever one might want to paint the 9/11 attacks as, that is your interpretation. What we know the 9/11 attacks were is that it was an indiscriminate slaughter of civilians. Do you think the attackers would be fine if those planes and buildings were empty? It was most definitely intended to massacre as many civilians as possible. Which how Islamists always have operated when commiting terror attacks. Symbolism of military and political targets is all secondary, the dead civilians is the meat of the matter. Without it, they can't draw the equivalency between the their (fake) outrage they feel over their fellow muslims that have been killed by the US.

    At the end of the day 9/11 and Srebrenica are equivalent in that they were both ways of punishing an entire collective for past grievances suffered by the perpretators peoples.

    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #53 - September 12, 2011, 03:15 AM
    Quote from: Jesus Christ on September 12, 2011, 02:58 AM
    Do you think the attackers would be fine if those planes and buildings were empty?


    Bush wasn't in the White House when the plane was scheduled to hit it. The terrorists could not have known whether or not he would be there nor whether or not he'd be evacuated to a bunker as soon as the plane entered the airspace.

    Quote
    It was most definitely intended to massacre as many civilians as possible.


    WTC perhaps, but Pentagon and White House definitely not.

    Quote
    Which how Islamists always have operated when commiting terror attacks.


    Always? One of the most notable attacks by Al-Qaeda prior to 9/11 was the USS Cole bombing-- again definitely not intended to maximize civilian casualties as it was plainly against a military target.

    Quote
    Symbolism of military and political targets is all secondary, the dead civilians is the meat of the matter.


    Unless you were involved in planning the operation you don't know that. There are certainly attack plans that could have taken more civilian life than the 9/11 attacks did-- say routing those planes destined for the White House and Pentagon into residential high-rises in Manhattan. They could have easily doubled or tripled the body-count by doing that.
    fuck you
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #54 - September 12, 2011, 03:23 AM
    I don't remember too much since I was only 10 but the day consisted of getting ready for and attending school. I was in Arabic class at my madrasa when the teachers started shuffling about and talking in hushed tones. They ended up sending all the kids home and advised the parents to wait a week to let them back into school. I had no idea what was going on until a few days after the event. If I happened to walk with someone who was visibly Muslim (beard, kufi, hijab, etc.), we were stared down. Really frightening, but I don't feel any emotional attachment to the day even now. I mean, I know people equate 9/11 to a turning point in their idea of faith or practice of Islam but...I got nothing.
    "I know where I'm going and I know the truth, and I don't have to be what you want me to be. I'm free to be what I want."
    Muhammad Ali
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #55 - September 12, 2011, 03:32 AM
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on September 12, 2011, 03:15 AM
    Bush wasn't in the White House when the plane was scheduled to hit it. The terrorists could not have known whether or not he would be there nor whether or not he'd be evacuated to a bunker as soon as the plane entered the airspace.

    WTC perhaps, but Pentagon and White House definitely not.

    Always? One of the most notable attacks by Al-Qaeda prior to 9/11 was the USS Cole bombing-- again definitely not intended to maximize civilian casualties as it was plainly against a military target.

    Unless you were involved in planning the operation you don't know that. There are certainly attack plans that could have taken more civilian life than the 9/11 attacks did-- say routing those planes destined for the White House and Pentagon into residential high-rises in Manhattan. They could have easily doubled or tripled the body-count by doing that.


    I agree there was an important symbolic component to these attacks, but killing civilians was - at the end of the day - the primary result. We can interpret whatever we like of the attacks, but it doesn't change the fact that these men knowingly slaughtered thousands of people. I think you're splitting hairs with your differentiation between 9/11 and Srebrenica because it's besides the point I was making.

    Both were cruel slaughters of innocents motivated by a sort of political and historical grievance. Can we agree with this basic description at least?

    My main point is that one can point to Srebrenica and easily say "Well the Bosnian muslims had it coming, after all their Ottoman brothers slaughtered and oppressed the Serb people for 500 years". It's the concept of collective punishment I'm going after. Every person (like this poster) who goes "well they had it coming" would never say the same if their respective peoples were slaughtered indiscriminately based on what their government or historical predecessor did.

    Fact is, all our governments and ancestors have done terrible terrible things. If we use this logic of "chickens coming home to roost" then practically any tragedy and war crime can be written of as "they had it coming".
    Formerly known as Iblis
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #56 - September 12, 2011, 03:34 AM
    I am a New Yorker and I was in school. It was a very very sad and scary day for us. Something  I will never forget
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #57 - September 12, 2011, 04:01 AM
    Quote from: Blade Gunner on September 10, 2011, 10:44 PM
    slightly off-topic, i really hate conspiracy theories, but one thing i've been getting the impression of is that the plane that crashed down in pensylvania was actually shot down by an american jet rather than passengers making it inside the cockpit and stopping the terrorists - anyone in US have any thoughts on this?


    The very small debris field where that plane crashed and the lack of reported debris elswhere has me thinking the plane was flown into the ground at a very steep angle the  NTSB would say "controlled flight into terrain".

    If it was shot down there should be bits and pieces of the aircraft away from the impact point and from what i have read there were 2 pilots in F16's chasing one said he would crash into the cockpit the other said she would take the tail out as they were not fully armed.
    The F16 pilots would have to eject if they damaged their aircraft by crashing into an airliner which means 2 F16's become  lawn darts.

    I hate conspiracy theories as well.......










  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #58 - September 12, 2011, 04:12 AM
    Quote from: Jesus Christ on September 12, 2011, 03:32 AM
    I agree there was an important symbolic component to these attacks, but killing civilians was - at the end of the day - the primary result. We can interpret whatever we like of the attacks, but it doesn't change the fact that these men knowingly slaughtered thousands of people. I think you're splitting hairs with your differentiation between 9/11 and Srebrenica because it's besides the point I was making.

    Both were cruel slaughters of innocents motivated by a sort of political and historical grievance. Can we agree with this basic description at least?

    My main point is that one can point to Srebrenica and easily say "Well the Bosnian muslims had it coming, after all their Ottoman brothers slaughtered and oppressed the Serb people for 500 years". It's the concept of collective punishment I'm going after. Every person (like this poster) who goes "well they had it coming" would never say the same if their respective peoples were slaughtered indiscriminately based on what their government or historical predecessor did.

    Fact is, all our governments and ancestors have done terrible terrible things. If we use this logic of "chickens coming home to roost" then practically any tragedy and war crime can be written of as "they had it coming".


    If we're talking solely about the moral justifications people make for it, then yeah, I'd agree they're sufficiently equivalent, but as to the acts themselves I still do discern a difference. 9/11 was the irregular warfare equivalent of strategic bombing population centers to damage manufacturing and infrastructure in a conventional war, whereas Srebrenica (or whatever, fuckin Balkans and their lack of vowels) was just a straight-up war crime with no discernible tactical aim other than pure terror and ethnic cleansing.
    fuck you
  • Re: 9/11
     Reply #59 - September 12, 2011, 04:23 AM
    Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on September 12, 2011, 04:12 AM
    If we're talking solely about the moral justifications people make for it, then yeah, I'd agree they're sufficiently equivalent, but as to the acts themselves I still do discern a difference. 9/11 was the irregular warfare equivalent of strategic bombing population centers to damage manufacturing and infrastructure in a conventional war, whereas Srebrenica (or whatever, fuckin Balkans and their lack of vowels) was just a straight-up war crime with no discernible tactical aim other than pure terror and ethnic cleansing.


    You're arguing logistics, I'm really not. I'm talking about the way people color and justify a crime.
    Formerly known as Iblis
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