It's not Islam....

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #60 - November 24, 2011, 04:43 PM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on November 24, 2011, 03:49 PM
I thought I answered when I said I am brown and circumcised. I asked one of my closest, intellectual even, english friends (who knows my thoughts and practices) Why am I muslim? he said because you are brown. I suppose becoming a coconut was a bridge too far. I suppose everyone brown in the uk goes through a phase of being a coconut, being insecure in their own skin, some just stay there.

Perhaps Bernard manning was onto something when he said something along the lines of - a dog born in a stable is not a horse.

A lot is to do with your surroundings when growing up. I have two indian friends from nominally muslim families who grew up without any strict religious parenting who were allowed to associate with whoever they felt like, and most of the time, their skincolour just doesn't even get noticed let alone commented on even amongst some rather narrowminded company. My Bangladeshi muslim friends (brother and sister) however, grew up with a strict muslim family and were very restricted on who they were allowed to be friends with. Even though they are both ex-muslims and dress in western clothes, there is just something about them that cries out muslim and their skin colour just seems to stand out more than the other two who are actually darker skinned. It is difficult to pinpoint, but I think you may be right about the insecurity within their own skin - primarily due to their upbringing

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #61 - November 25, 2011, 10:42 AM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on November 24, 2011, 03:49 PM
I thought I answered when I said I am brown and circumcised. I asked one of my closest, intellectual even, english friends (who knows my thoughts and practices) Why am I muslim? he said because you are brown. I suppose becoming a coconut was a bridge too far. I suppose everyone brown in the uk goes through a phase of being a coconut, being insecure in their own skin, some just stay there.

Perhaps Bernard manning was onto something when he said something along the lines of - a dog born in a stable is not a horse.

Bernard Manninmg was a racist bastard. You take your cue from him? How sad.

Anyway, being brown skinned doesn't equate with being Muslim - there are people of other religions like Hinduism, Sikhism, Christianity and Buddhism and those with no religion with brown skin.

You can self-identify as you like - everyone is free to create their own identity and sense of self. But predicating that on a racist bastard's idiocy, and a notion of racial-religious immutability, even equating 'brown skin' with Islam, is ridiculous.

Note - I'm not knocking your decision to self-identify as a Muslim despite not believing in Islam - you are attatched to the community because it has formed you, I understand that, and I respect that. And frankly, in a free secular society everyone is free to self-identity as they like, if you identified as a follower of the alien Emperor Zorg from the planet Mars that would be cool too. Its all good.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #62 - November 25, 2011, 01:53 PM

Quote from: billy on November 25, 2011, 10:42 AM
Bernard Manninmg was a ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIHN1UkcSGo

Well add ego in to the Russian Juice you get that fat head freak..

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #63 - November 25, 2011, 04:44 PM

Quote from: neale
Can a Muslim still be a Muslim and eat pork, drink alcohol, neglect to pray or ever go to a Mosque, fail to fast during rammadan, never go on Hajj, be openly homosexual,

Objectively definitely not. We have only ONE objective definition of "Islam" ie "submitting to the will of Allah" as laid out in the Qur'an. A "gay-friendly", wine-imbibing "version" cannot therefore be objectively accepted as equally warranting the name "Islam" as a gay-unfriendly, wine prohibiting "version".

Quote
When does a Muslim stop being a Muslim; when the Muslim stops self defining as a Muslim? This is clearly wrong.

Not according to Hassan Radwan. Actually HR rountinely contradicts him on this since, in contravention to his words to Robert Spencer, he does often take issue with Muslims' "interpretations".

Quote
Can Islam be anything other that what it defines itself to be?

No

Quote
The word "Muslim" is not a catch all term, it is for identifying a specific person with a specific set of beliefs. If you stray from the path of a non-evolving rigid dogma then you should heve the courage to call a spade a spade.

I think "Muslim" is so core to the identity of those who regard themselves as such that without it they do not know who they are. So they cling to it like a shipwrecked person clings to a fragment of rotting flostam even though they know it stinks.

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #64 - November 26, 2011, 05:06 AM

Religion never fails to amaze me.

I'm on Facebook right now, and I stumbled over this awkward fanpage for the Somali national football team. There is a buzz among Somalis nowadays, because the Somali national team has been re-established and it actually plays professional, lisensed matches again.

All over this fanpage, there is this praise to Allah. Thank Allah for re-establishing Somali football. Thank Allah for giving Somalia some joy again. Alhamdulilah, Mashallah, etc etc etc.

I can't feggin understand it. Over two decades with constant civil war, unimaginable hunger and starvation, diseases and epidemics, violence and rape, hundreds of thousands of people killed, women raped, children starved to death. An unimaginable hell hole for over two fegging decades...

For that, Allah is not to blame. No, no, thank Allah for making London-based Somalis play football!

Had I not been afraid to expose my apostasy, I would've asked why they're not thanking Allah for Somalia anno 1990-2011 either.

Fucking religious nutcases..

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #65 - November 26, 2011, 11:32 AM

I've cut and pasted your comment on the Somali National Football Team The Ocean Stars page for you.

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #66 - November 27, 2011, 11:49 PM

Quote from: billy on November 25, 2011, 10:42 AM
Bernard Manninmg was a racist bastard. You take your cue from him? How sad.

Anyway, being brown skinned doesn't equate with being Muslim - there are people of other religions like Hinduism, Sikhism, Christianity and Buddhism and those with no religion with brown skin.

You can self-identify as you like - everyone is free to create their own identity and sense of self. But predicating that on a racist bastard's idiocy, and a notion of racial-religious immutability, even equating 'brown skin' with Islam, is ridiculous.

Note - I'm not knocking your decision to self-identify as a Muslim despite not believing in Islam - you are attatched to the community because it has formed you, I understand that, and I respect that. And frankly, in a free secular society everyone is free to self-identity as they like, if you identified as a follower of the alien Emperor Zorg from the planet Mars that would be cool too. Its all good.

It's a bit more than just having a brown skin, it's the fact of being circumcised as well lol. i would say that most brown-skinned men who are circumcised would be defined as muslims when push comes to shove.

As for Bernard Manning, it's not as if I take my cue from him, I arrive at that decision independently.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #67 - November 27, 2011, 11:55 PM

He's saying that unless you're white you can't be British, which isn't just racist, its untrue on a scale that renders it laughable.

If you came to that conclusion yourself you're subscribing to ideas as bigoted as the racist who said it.

You're also making a category error by projecting religious identity as being as immutable as skin colour.

Its all a lie.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #68 - November 28, 2011, 12:03 AM

Oh I do identify myself as british, as my nationality have said so. I think Bernard Manning was talking about being English. I maybe wrong.

Quote
You're also making a category error by projecting religious identity as being as immutable as skin colour.

imo when push comes to shove, by that I mean if and when the natives decide to get rid of muslims, the two most distinct identifiers will be skin colour and circumcision.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #69 - November 28, 2011, 12:10 AM

Mimicking the language of racists ('natives') to make a point that is supposedly about racism. And then conflating race and religion again.

Two sides of the same coin, basically.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #70 - November 28, 2011, 12:27 AM

That's a cheap shot - ('natives'). Thats not me being racist. Though admittedly i do think everyone has a latent prejudice/racism in them - perhaps not based on race but on skin colour - As for conflating race and religion - hmm you do have a point hence why sikhs and jews can be protected under race laws and muslims not - I get that.

But the fact that the vast majority of muslims are brown does imo play a part in their demonisation. I would say that if there were no muslims in the uk, there would be a latent/overt hostility to Indians, no matter how well they integrated.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #71 - November 28, 2011, 02:19 AM

Quote from: billy on November 27, 2011, 11:55 PM
You're also making a category error by projecting religious identity as being as immutable as skin colour.

Who said skin color is immutable?

Michael Jackson anyone?

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #72 - November 28, 2011, 10:32 AM

Quote from: devilsadvokat on November 28, 2011, 12:27 AM
That's a cheap shot - ('natives'). Thats not me being racist.

Thats you using the racist language of nativists to make your argument.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #73 - November 29, 2011, 01:14 AM

Quote from: billy on November 28, 2011, 10:32 AM
Thats you using the racist language of nativists to make your argument.

Lol - come off it fella - natives is just a term for english, i'll use english if you like from hereon. I have used it for many years, not in the racist sense but just in social science context etc.

I am my own worst enemy and best friend, itsa bit of a squeeze in a three-quarter bed, tho. Unhinged!? If I was a dog I would be having kittens, that is unhinged. Footloose n fancy free, forced to fit, fated to fly. One or 2 words, 3 and 3/thirds, looking comely but lonely, till I made them homely.D
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #74 - November 29, 2011, 01:14 PM

You're confused dude.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #75 - November 29, 2011, 03:48 PM

Manning was a jew

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #76 - November 29, 2011, 05:29 PM

Quote from: asbdsp on November 28, 2011, 02:19 AM
Who said skin color is immutable?

Michael Jackson anyone?

Skin colour is not immutable, you have pigmentation disorders such a Vitiligo which by all accounts Michael Jackson had. This is why I hate the term race in terms of skin colour, I prefer African-American, European, etc.
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #77 - November 30, 2011, 06:02 AM

Quote from: Lilyesque on November 29, 2011, 05:29 PM
Skin colour is not immutable, you have pigmentation disorders such a Vitiligo which by all accounts Michael Jackson had. This is why I hate the term race in terms of skin colour, I prefer African-American, European, etc.

I hate this term, but I digress.

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #78 - November 30, 2011, 05:47 PM

asbdsp, curious what do you think of the term say Afro-European?
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #79 - November 30, 2011, 06:00 PM

Quote from: Lilyesque on November 29, 2011, 05:29 PM
Skin colour is not immutable, you have pigmentation disorders such a Vitiligo which by all accounts Michael Jackson had. This is why I hate the term race in terms of skin colour, I prefer African-American, European, etc.

African-American is such PC bullshit. Most Black people themselves don't use it. Besides, it's not an accurate description. Technically I'm African-American cause my dad is from Egypt, yet this is not what's meant when one says African-American, it's simply a contrived way of saying Black. I find that most White people who feel the need to use African-American all the time do so because they somehow think Black is a dirty word and grew up in all White environments and feel some sort of misplaced guilt by saying "Black"-- it's fucking retarded.

fuck you
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #80 - November 30, 2011, 06:11 PM

Not at all, I just think Black as a term itself is meaningless, there are lots of Black cultures and cultures which have no relation to skin colour. I just think it is absolutely meaningless. You are far more likely in the US to be under some form of discrimination if you are not European (white), i.e African-american which yes does include imo those from Egypt as it is Africa, the main reason why I said I don't like the term Black as a definition of race in the first place. Some Egyptians I would class not only as African-American but also Arabic-American, they can be both.
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #81 - November 30, 2011, 07:27 PM

The line is blurred between describing oneself as being from a country. E.g being born in Japan despite being a different ethnicity. Or describing your heritage as it is, or the color of your skin. Political correctness is so troublesome.

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #82 - November 30, 2011, 07:57 PM

I'd prefer people saying their heritage, black doesn't mean anything but the colour.
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #83 - December 01, 2011, 07:03 AM

Quote from: Colonel Q-Daffi on November 30, 2011, 06:00 PM
African-American is such PC bullshit. Most Black people themselves don't use it. Besides, it's not an accurate description. Technically I'm African-American cause my dad is from Egypt, yet this is not what's meant when one says African-American, it's simply a contrived way of saying Black. I find that most White people who feel the need to use African-American all the time do so because they somehow think Black is a dirty word and grew up in all White environments and feel some sort of misplaced guilt by saying "Black"-- it's fucking retarded.

+1

Also, in response to Lilyesque, I find that most people in the US don't really care about the nuances of heritage when using these kinds of terms, mostly because they can't be bothered with those details. Most of the times its used to politically-correctly describe a certain type of appearance. No one will call Q-man African-American, ever, because that's not the accepted de facto usage of the term.

The melting-pot nature of American culture means that ethnic heritage is often blurred anyway, so these finer distinctions are rather rendered moot.

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #84 - December 01, 2011, 09:57 AM

Okay as fair enough, I just hate using colour as a thing of identity for some reason.
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #85 - December 01, 2011, 05:49 PM

If you were witness to an event, lets say a crime, and you had to describe someone you didn't know, wouldn't skin color be one of the first distinguishing features that you would note?

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #86 - December 01, 2011, 06:07 PM

It would be but that is a description of looks not of background and history as such. So could say there were lots of pink flowers in that field but a more in depth thing would be to say there were daisies which were pink in that field. Daisy being an identifier of an individual colour being how they are on the outside.
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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #87 - December 01, 2011, 07:02 PM

Do you really think that <insert ethnic background here> serves to identify who you are inside in any meaningful manner?

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #88 - December 01, 2011, 07:05 PM

is who you are inside the same as background and history?

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Re: It's not Islam....
Reply #89 - December 01, 2011, 07:11 PM

Good point. But a daisy is a daisy is a daisy. Can you really tell anything about a person, simply because they call themselves, Afro-Indian or whatever?

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