Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 09:57 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
Today at 12:56 AM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
October 07, 2025, 09:50 AM

What's happened to the fo...
October 06, 2025, 11:58 AM

New Britain
October 05, 2025, 08:07 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
October 05, 2025, 07:55 AM

Kashmir endgame
October 04, 2025, 10:05 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
October 02, 2025, 12:03 PM

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
September 24, 2025, 11:55 AM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
September 20, 2025, 07:39 PM

Jesus mythicism
by zeca
September 13, 2025, 10:59 PM

Orientalism - Edward Said
by zeca
August 22, 2025, 07:41 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Deconverting From Radical Islam

 (Read 21101 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #30 - March 26, 2012, 08:59 AM

    I recommend a prescription of Disney, Tom and Jerry and Dali.

    I think they're all aready part of Obeah.
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #31 - March 26, 2012, 12:28 PM

    sponge bob square pant?
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #32 - March 26, 2012, 04:13 PM

    A bad, bad bitch. Gets up to all sorts of mischief with Jackie Lantern.
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #33 - March 26, 2012, 11:38 PM

    Lol @ you two!


    continues


    To be fair, we were only homeless for about 2 months and a good part of that was spent sleeping in a friend's used car dealership office, which was sort of like a parking lot that had a little box office that had a sofa in it. We slept on that sofa. For about a week before that though, we slept in the stairwells of buildings or, if we were lucky, at a friend's place. It sounds kind of despondent, but it was awesome. It was a rough way of life, yet it was a hundred times better than living at home.

    Home was constant torture, mental torture. If it wasn't our father threatening some violent punishment for not doing as he said, it was watching his broken mind at work. I mean it when I say that just watching his mind work in the way it did was painful. You actually learn new ways a person can be wrong. It's not a mind that has a bad system of verifying whether they're right or wrong, it's a mind that has no system of verifying that at all. For my father it's, "This makes me feel good, therefore it's obviously true".

    Despite knowing he was wrong about a number of things in the weeks before I left home, I doubted myself from time to time. There's always that chance, that possibility, you're incorrect about any particular thing; that element of uncertainty I'd be afraid of. While my father would proudly attest his beliefs without a fraction of doubt, I would wonder what it was that gave him confidence. Why couldn't I be that way? It strikes me now that I actually do appear that way myself. Whenever I argue, I appear confident, strident, bold, even in the face of the deepest innermost doubt and fear. Now I see that confidence is neither virtue, nor vice, it's irrelevant.

    I got further confirmation of my father's inability to see his own faults one day when he challenged me on the meaning of a word.

    "Impertinent means rude!" he exclaimed.

    "That's one meaning of the word," I replied, "but it can also mean irrelevant". He disagreed, so I opened the dictionary and showed him the meaning of the word. He still disagreed. I wrote him off on the spot. Sure, his pride was hurt, which was what really led him to disagree, but ignoring words that lay in front of you because of pride was going way too far for me. That incident had depleted the respect I had for any opinion he could possibly form either then or in the future to come. See, I could understand having religious differences with someone because of the way you wanted to interpret something, but the dictionary is about as clear cut as it gets.

    "It only has one meaning," is not something you say after reading 2 meanings for a word in the dictionary, not without a good excuse at least.

    Back to dah streetz, my brother and I are walking around the city of Sharjah and Ajman, feeling slight pangs of guilt, but bursting with exuberance in seeing what we had just achieved. We escaped, we left, we were out there in the real world on our own. I was 21 years old, but I had rarely ever stepped outside my own yard without asking my father's permission. Whenever I went out, which was rare, I'd have to tell him where I was going and why, lest the freemason assassins find and torture us.

    Leaving like we did was the best way to give the middle finger to that rule.

    I think I spent an entire year inside our home once. Never leaving much further past the front gate. I had little to no clue what the outside world was like. Sure I spent a few years in school, which was a bad experience overall, and yes, I went out on a few business deals with my dad holding my hand the whole way, but I never really got unmitigated interaction with other humans like I was about to. I never really got to interact with people.

    Throughout my life, I'd been constantly told how bad the world was, how selfish and horrible people could be. That I wouldn't be able to imagine how evil people were, that the only thing I had was family, everything else was meaningless, self-centered and whimsical. That couldn't have been more wrong. People don't go out of their way to hurt each other, they don't constantly look for ways to harm one another and when they actually do harm it's often accidental or out of neglect. It turns out that in a co-operative society, there was a plethora of reasons for humans to work together.

    As I had much more time to myself in the outside world, I found myself enveloped by deeper philosophical thoughts than ever before. At one point I sat down by a traffic light and saw a very usual occurrence in a completely different way. Every car that'd arrive at that point would stop when the traffic light changed red. It would probably do no harm, I thought, for one person to break the light at the last point, allowing them to get to their destination faster, but the majority of people didn't do it. This didn't seem to be a thing they actively considered and chose to avoid, they just fell into place, doing as they would like others to do. The traffic light was a pact, a way men said to each other "Hey, this will benefit us all, but in order for it to work, we must all follow". Nearly everyone followed that rule, and many other rules, blindly.

    Yes, I've been cheated, robbed and abused. I've suffered racism for the colour of my skin and been offended for the jew in my blood, but for the most part these appear to be exceptions, not the rule. Cultures can grow out of bigotry, but a society can not survive without something good in their ethics, because in the end we are good not just because it's good to be good, but because it is selfish to be good. Perhaps helping a blind man cross the road will never do you any benefit, but living in a society where these things are the norm has already helped you endlessly. The idea that one good action will not change society is akin to the notion that laying a single brick will not help build a tower, nor taking a single step will help further your position in a thousand mile journey. Societies that do not have people laying bricks or taking steps, do not have towers and do not move.

    Morality is inevitable.

    Within a month of being homeless I'd land a job with a retouching studio called "The Refinery". It was here I got in touch with my first in-the-flesh non-Muslim I'd consider a friend, Dan. I may have been uneducated, out of touch with society and penniless, but I was not without some talent to present. The past 8 years at home, I had spent studying in my own way.

    Recently, my brother showed me some pictures of me back at home, half of the pictures of me have a certain theme to them.



    Life was so tough, I had to make a cool pose for this picture.






    I'm at a computer in all of those. I was nearly never not tapping away at some code I had written or learning something new. In 2003, I found an e-book about programming in VBScript and a few weeks down the line I was building an e-commerce website which still stands to this day (although it was recently re-written in PHP by my brother). Programming was my thing, I can wrap my mind around a new language or framework in days. I love it. I'd challenge myself to something new everyday. Whenever I'd see something new, I'd break down the programming in my mind and think about how I'd go about putting it together myself. Since I was out of touch with programming communities or any standards I had taken to programming everything bespoke. This was both a curse and a blessing.

    Today, anyone can be a programmer. All you need to do is download a bunch of programs, have a tiny understanding of what variables do what and then edit them a bit getting the program to do what you want. What happens because of this, however, is that most "programmers" don't actually know how to program. They just edit code; they can't build components on their own. It's because of this it is said that only 1 in 200 programmers can actually program. The rest can not even write a single line of code.

    In my case, I spent the first 6-7 years programming, not knowing that there was code online that I could actually download and have do what I needed. This meant that I ended up re-inventing the wheel over and over, but also it sharpened my skills. I programmed shopping carts, CRMs, integrated APIs, made chat rooms, built multiplayer online games and did all that mundane client-side validation code too. So in my own mind, when it came to web development, I was a god. Finding a job wasn't hard.

    Eventually, we decided we wanted to renew our old passports. They had been expired for about 5 years and were pretty much useless, but we thought we'd try anyway. A family friend, the guy that owned the dealership, nick-named "Blade" for how sharp he was, gave us the money we needed and we went ahead with it. The new passports came back in a month. We finally had an identity. It felt as though things were finally working, we were going somewhere, we were making something of ourselves. Still though, we also had about £2000 in fines to pay to the UAE government for staying without a visa for X amount of years. Blade and a few of his friends paid that too. I owe so much to Blade, if it weren't for him I wouldn't be where I am today. I probably would have stayed on the streets, I would have never gone back home. Sometimes I'm not sure how to show my gratitude, so stupidly I remain in silence. What can you ever say or do to repay someone that gave you a chance at life?

    To make matters worse, our father hated Blade. His hatred for Blade knows no bounds. Blade tried really hard to help our family. He saw a lot of what was wrong and instead of telling my father that he was insane, he tried to pass on some advice, my father always took it the wrong way. Hearing that Blade's wife had said something about him that sullied his name, my father resolved never to speak to Blade ever again. Let me tell you a few ways Blade responded to my father's irrational behaviour.

    1) Loaning him 20,000 AED (around 3500 GBP).
    2) Finding one of our stranded sisters at a super market and bringing her home.
    3) Buying lots of groceries and turning up at our door when we were broke and hungry, only to be refused by my father and turned away.
    4) Turning up to help out whenever he was needed.

    I asked Blade, once, why he did these things when our father was quite clearly belligerent to him. He said it was because he watched us grow up, his younger brother was one of our childhood friends. He said he saw us as his own.

    Our father responded to all this by hating him more. In my father's mind Blade was a monster that was doing his utmost to disgrace and sully his name. Blade was an enemy of the family.

    The fact that we turned to Blade for help after leaving home was just another middle finger to our father's thoughts. A well deserved one.

    It was around that time, Tianna and I decided that our relationship could probably work afterall and we started referring to each other as boyfriend and girlfriend.

    A few months down the line, Bilal and I moved into a place in Sharjah. It was a small box room in an apartment we shared with some Somali women, but it worked for us. Tianna and I took to speaking 6+ hours a day again, however, becuase of my previous erratic behaviour Tianna hadn't quite found a way to trust me yet. Also I wasn't ready to talk about my life. I hadn't shared much of this with anyone. It would take a good year and a half before I opened up about what had happened to us. Tianna tells me now that I still had missed out many details I've written here. I honestly don't know any other way to get all of this out.

    A few months down the line, Bilal landed a job with an internet cafe and begun talking to someone online that he was falling for. We were talking to a variety of girls in person around that time, but I couldn't find someone that would stimulate me mentally in the way Tianna would. That, coupled with the fact that she was one of my major inspirations for leaving home, led me to believe we were destined to be together, but she was still Wiccan. She had gone as far as using tarrot cards to answer certain questions around that time too. It wasn't bad actually, it guessed a few things correctly. Mostly by coincidence, but otherwise it was because the cards were vague enough to allow the user to make an educated guess. I didn't really believe they worked at the time, but figured that if they did it was probably by using Jinns (demons). We had that confirmed once when she decided to ask the tarrot cards how they worked, the devil card dropped out.

    Coincidence? Yeah, coincidence, I'll go with that.

    To be fair, the system of Tarrot is made in a way where it can only give right answers or vague answers. The right answers are not as common as the vague ones and are purely co-incidental, probably as common as 1 in 10 chance if there's more than one card that can answer it right. The vague answers are actually the wrong answers that you're reading into too much.

    I avoided the topic of religion with her. It felt cheap to try and pawn off ideology on her, despite how important it seemed to me, but I'd approach the subject whenever I had a good excuse to. She must've caught on to this at some point because she said:

    "I know Islam's very important to you, so you should convince me of it," She gave me the ticket I wanted. So I did what I was best at, feigning confidence and arguing for an idea. I frequented sceptical forums around then, so I had gotten pretty good at addressing all the points people made. That said, Tianna still managed to make some fierce penetrating points of her own.

    "Why does the religion elevate men over women?", she asked.

    "Why does it seem limited to the Middle East region, I would expect god to reveal his message to the world." she added.

    "Why do you have to be Muslim to get into heaven, what about people that do good things in their life and aren't Muslim or people that don't know about Islam." These were some questions I had asked myself afore, but hadn't quite gotten round to finding answers. For me, god may have been what we understood to be evil, I was comfortable with that, but we had to obey to avoid an eternity of torment.

    "It's not that Allah elevates men over women, it's that we just have different roles. Who is to take care of the pregnant woman when she's at her weakest? When she's raising children? The natural way is for men to do this. This is the way god has made it." I failed to address why god created us with such disparity and such justification does not justify the Quran's mandate for men to beat women in any way, but equating god's will with nature gave me a get-out-of-jail-free card. She protested a bit longer on that point, but my appeals to nature were hard for her to overcome.

    "Islam wasn't limited to the Middle East region," I began, "As a matter of fact, Allah sent warners to every nation and they responded to that in various ways, but Islam was the one that was responded to best ." I nicely tucked away her second complaint with a bare faced assertion.

    "Well, if you can prove to me that Allah sent a warner to the Inuit, I'll believe you" she gave me the worst challenge. A challenge that would put to test my own faith in my excuses, after a bit of reading and research I responded with.

    "It's hard to find out information on Inuit history because they didn't really keep a written record for everything, to further my point, it's true that Muslims actually spread the good news of the religion to American Indians before Christian Europe had gotten there, but most of this knowledge has been wiped out by the European invasion of that continent. If they could do this to Islam that was spread in the last century, then doing so to any other unwritten message that came before would be much much easier." I stumbled upon a few essays and documents that had suggested that Islamic explorers had found the Americas before the Europeans had and spread Islam to a few of the Indian tribes, I'm not sure of the exact truth of that, but it made a fine excuse. She begrudgingly accepted.

    I countered all of her points like this and then went on to challenge her own beliefs, which we both agreed she had only accepted because it sounded nice, not because they seemed true at all. Eventually she embraced Islam. I wasn't sure how I felt about that, because along with accepting Islam, she wasn't so keen on practising the obsessive rituals that came part and parcel with the religion. She'd have bouts of religious fervency from time to time, coupled with doubts and open questioning of various tenets. She soon became the first person I openly confessed my own doubts to.

    "To be honest, emotionally I'm an atheist. I'm only Muslim because I'm trapped by it." Those were, pretty much, my exact words. I knew I was trapped because I couldn't disprove the concept of god. God, I thought, did a good job of making himself undisprovable. Now, I think, if he did that, he also did a good job of making the flying spaghetti monster and invisible pink unicorns undisprovable. He also did a good job of making conspiracy theories undisprovable, to the point that I wasn't completely sure that MI5 or the CIA wasn't actually after my father. Perhaps they are, if so, they're good...

    It was then I actually came to terms with the idea that I had my own doubts and tried to make sense of them. There were a number of things that had always bothered me about Islam, or maybe god in general. Namely, if god is all powerful and all knowing, why would he choose to create the universe? What would that benefit him at all? What point is there to it? Did he just feel like being creative? That was too anthropomorphic for my likings... Did he do it out of love? Well then why do humans suffer so much? There was no love in having blind spots, cancer, influenza, small pox, pain and death. Was there love in down syndrome and autism? Perhaps good things could come out of things such as those, but the majority of times it resulted in unnecessary suffering and death. What about that woman that was raped in front of her children and then made to watch as her babies were slain, where was god in that scenario? The argument that he valued free will above the torment of others did not satisfy the question, because he didn't have to interfere with free-will to show that he disapproved of the deeds committed, as much as a booming voice from the clouds would suffice "Hey, you guys, I don't like that". Especially when the guys doing the raping and killing are doing so in his fucking name!

    As much as I bounced these ideas around in my mind, as much as I toyed with them, the best I could prove was an evil god, not a non-existent god.

    Okay, so I couldn't quite grasp why he created anything or why he allowed evil to occur, but that didn't mean he didn't exist. Besides, this evil god would only be happier tormenting me after death than a good one would.

    Although I had done away with Jihad and hating Kafirs, I hadn't gotten rid of the real problem, God with a capital G.

    "So be it," I thought, "I guess there's no harm in believing, there's a bigger risk not believing." and I left it at that.

    For now, then.

    I used to be powerful, then I started blogging.
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #34 - March 27, 2012, 01:32 AM

     dance Keep 'em coming!

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #35 - March 27, 2012, 02:35 AM

    Whoops, forgot the pictures lol

    I used to be powerful, then I started blogging.
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #36 - March 27, 2012, 02:42 AM

    Oh HAI der, PureInertia

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #37 - March 27, 2012, 02:49 AM

    (Clicky for piccy!)
    Life was so tough, I had to make a cool pose for this picture.


    Is it just me or is that some Gnome-based distro on the computer?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #38 - March 27, 2012, 03:13 AM

    Yup, Fedora 6 or 7 methinks.

    Oh HAI der, PureInertia


    Hai dere u

    I used to be powerful, then I started blogging.
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #39 - March 27, 2012, 04:03 AM

    umm..I think that's OS X. It's a Mac, and that's an OS X wallpaper. I'd guess OS X 10.3-10.4 maybe?

    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #40 - March 27, 2012, 04:15 AM

    Ahem, yes... that is a mac.

    The computer beside it is Fedora, which was Gnome-based.

    Weird co-incidence.

    We had a few GNU/Linux, Mac and Windows boxes bouncing about around then.

    For what it's worth, that's Fedora in that 4th picture.

    I used to be powerful, then I started blogging.
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #41 - March 27, 2012, 04:19 AM

    Oh, maybe I was looking at the wrong pic. Grin

    Sorry. Tongue















































     worship    

    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #42 - March 28, 2012, 12:55 AM

    Quote
    "I guess there's no harm in believing, there's a bigger risk not believing." and I left it at that.

    For now, then.

     i remember learning about pascals wager too..

    i find your journey inspirational , and your story remarkably captivating...
    looking forward to more..





    thank you for sharing it..
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #43 - March 28, 2012, 01:03 AM


    Yes and I will add my words of admiration for the latest instalment too, very well written too and brings everything to life in a memoir style so well.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #44 - March 28, 2012, 05:46 AM

    wonderful story PI  Smiley

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #45 - March 28, 2012, 07:31 AM

    Geek Redemption.
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #46 - March 28, 2012, 12:46 PM

    Hang on - Pascal's wager - you can swap gods and it still works?  That does not compute Will Robinson!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #47 - April 03, 2012, 05:29 PM

    Pascal's wager, I know it's invalid, I knew it was invalid, I learned why Pascal's wager was invalid long before I propped my faith up on it. Nevertheless, it remained convincing. Pascal's wager is very deceptive to a believer, but then maybe it does make sense in it's own way.

    Now, let me qualify that statement.

    The obvious flaw in Pascal's wager is the fact that it omits the possible wrath of a thousand other gods in favour of just one. This line of reasoning doesn't work on the religious for 3 reasons, I think. The first is that every other religion seems obviously false to the theist. Any religion other than their own has obvious flaws that give it away. These are mostly based on looking for something they find in their own religion that doesn't exist in others. They don't even have to make sense, like "Muhammed didn't have a sermon on the mount!" or "Jesus didn't split the moon!". Regardless of their arbitrary nature, these are the criteria that the theist was given, often from a young age, they may also be the things that impress them most by the religion. I suppose the best way to put this is that you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. If they're religious because of some emotional appeal, they'll be looking for those same experiences or appeals to convince them otherwise.

    From what I've seen, no one, other than apologists, claim to be convinced of religion by reason or evidence.

    Then there's the second reason, which feeds the whole appeal to fear; Religion is an investment. Spending years, thinking about, praying to, loving and exalting a god becomes an investment, much like a relationship with a person. Also, you've learned ways to read patterns in the noise, to see what god is showing you against the things that are mere natural occurences, so you feel almost as if you were communicating with the omniscient creator of the universe. You love her as she loves you. It's a relationship, with yourself, but still a relationship. To suggest that another religion may be true to a person in that deluded state of mind is almost to tell them that god had been fooling them, that she was hiding this truth from them all along. In it's own crazy way, the suggestion is nonsensical.

    The third reason ties in with the previous. The investment part. For me, spending years making the effort to pray, fast and exalt god felt almost as if I'd been putting money into a business idea which I'd see the benefit of after death. To suggest that another god could also be valid is to say that my investments may have been in vain. Even if they were, I thought, it can't be proven otherwise. I'd been putting all this effort into it for so long, I may as well continue with this one god just in case it was the one that was true. Even if the odds were bad, I couldn't just throw all my efforts away!

    Essentially, Pascal's wager is helpful only for those who already have faith, but fails overall to be a cogent argument. It wasn't only Pascalian goodess, however, that kept me on faith, I also had a few other justifications. The first one was the inerrancy of the Quran, something I consistently read up on. When I said inerrancy, I meant that it wasn't wrong about anything in it's text, nor was it wrong about any scientific matters it expounded. This is obviously false, so in order to believe this I was willing to change the meanings of verses as much as the individual words would allow me to vary their meanings to suit the conditions I required of them.

    To present how far I and many others are willing to go to make these verses do what we need them to, take this.

    Many places in the Quran Allah describes the heavens and earth as being created in six days:

    7:54 Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.
    10:3 Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.
    11:7 And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days.
    (props to scepticsannotatedbible.com for that)

    But at one point he says something a little different:

    41:9-12 Say (O Muhammad, unto the idolaters): Disbelieve ye verily in Him Who created the earth in two Days ... He placed therein firm hills rising above it, and blessed it and measured therein its sustenance in four Days ... Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days....

    Now in those verses, it appears that the days would add up to being 8 days, so the obvious acrobatic response is to say that the creation of the earth only took four days and that the first two days mentioned is combined with the second four days, which actually adds up to being just 6 days overall, but according to some scholars like Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi "this...  ...is against the apparent words of the Qur'an" as he claims that the creation of the heavens can be combined with the creation of the earth instead and that this explains away the error.

    So now we have a different problem, which is it? Do we combine the first two or the second two? Maududi says in his Tafheem Al Quran that "almost all the commentators agree that these [first] four days include the two days of the creation of the earth.", but then goes on to make a good argument for combining the second two instead, so there are a lot of people at odds with him, but the real answer is not apparent to a mere lay man like me. Which did Allah mean?

    The only thing apparent is the fact that those verses are a problem and Islamic scholars are desperately fiddling trying to fix it.


    My other justifications for my faith at the time were personal experiences, not just my own, but those of others around me.

    "I saw a Jinn last night, it came to me and sat by my bed at night. I started reciting the Quran and it immediately burned up." I heard countless stories such as these from peers as I grew up. Not just like that, however, but also shared experiences, which would involve more than one person seeing the same things. Surely one person could have a hallucination, but two people, no... two or more people couldn't share exactly the same experience.

    "Recite chapter Yasin, every week. It'll protect you from the demons that people are sending for you. It shields you in such a way that the demon sent after you will return to the sender and destroy them instead." my father gave this warning to one of the cult members once. The member did as he was told.

    "That woman you're living with is a witch, she's casting spells on you, leave her immediately." another piece of advice my father gave to the same cult member. After leaving the woman and reciting the chapter every week as he was told, she, and her roommate, would later confess to him that they were raped by invisible entities. This, my father took as a confirmation of his warnings. He had warned the man that the woman was a witch and that reading that chapter from the Quran would send the demons back to harm her and this is exactly what had happened. What's more, several people confirmed this story to me, they had spoken to either the woman or the roommate who had told them of their experiences.

    It was experiences like those, among many many others, being relayed to me from a young age that really confirmed Islam to me. Despite that, however, I still had a problem at hand. I couldn't demonstrate the veracity of any of them.

    I couldn't so much as prove that demons existed to myself. I didn't have the kind of fantastical experiences that the others had that'd make me believe. To make matters worse, I had begun reading and watching the religious lives of people from other religions and their anecdotes were quite similar to mine, but instead of having the Quran save the day, it had been the Bible or some Taoist incantation and the like.

    My own anecdotes, in the end, were just as valid as another's and human beings have plenty of these stories that easily contradict each other. Around then, I tended to interpret other people's personal experiences in accordance with my own religion. Exorcists that use the Quran were real, but other exorcists were just using demons to get done what they claimed they were getting done with their holy books. That explained away a good portion of other people's experiences to me, but it left a bad taste; other religious people could easily say the same for mine.

    It slowly became apparent to me that the experiences people were having were extremely culture-centric. Never hearing about Jesus severely decreased your chances of ever having a Jesus-related vision or dream. You don't find a lot of Red Indians having miraculous revelations from Jesus before the Europeans invaded. You don't have demons talking about their fear of Allah or the Quran until Islam has permeated the culture. It seemed, the prerequisite for having a specific religion's experiences were to have said religion in your mind.

    There was an uncanny connection between learning about a religion and then having experiences connected to them.

    This still didn't quite satisfy an explanation for how people could have shared religious experiences. However, I already had the answer I wasn't quite looking for. See, I had been accused of being possessed before, twice. So I had learned how easily personal experiences could become distorted and confabulated even among large groups declaring shared experiences.

    First, let me tell you exactly what happened.

    When I pretended to be possessed the second time, I actually believed I was. I was accused of having Jinn's inhabiting my body because of my reaction to listening to the Quran being blasted into my ears with these massive headphones, whilst being told to sit completely still in a specific position. I looked around the room, afraid that I'd be accused of being possessed somehow. Barely able to hear what they were saying as they, the exorcist, my father and a family friend, stood around me, I wondered what punishments my father would have in store for me if it would be found that I was possessed. I tried to relax and sit back against the sofa, but I wasn't allowed. I was made to sit up with my back straight and my palms faced upwards on my knees.

    I begun trembling.

    "That means he's possessed," A family friend, translated what the exorcist had said himself as the exorcist could only speak Arabic. I heard that part very clearly, so I begun shaking more. They stood around me talking to each other about what to do with the demon that was inside me. I couldn't completely hear what they were saying, but I had heard what happened to a few other people that were accused of being possessed by this same exorcist and knew this wasn't going to end pretty. I braced myself, trembling more. I wasn't shaking like normal, by now I was convinced of my own possession which only served to aggravate the symptoms. This is called the nocebo effect. Just like giving someone a sugar pill as medicine can help their road to recovery; placebo, giving someone the same thing as poison can cause them to exhibit the symptoms of sickness; nocebo. Of course, placebo and nocebo don't have to be delivered in sugar pill form, they can be anything from something acupuncture to a simple ritual. The person only needs to believe they are being made better/worse. Realising that the shaking was a symptom of demonic possession, I begun to shake more. More than was natural or usual. I didn't try to fight it, I knew I was possessed. I accepted it for what it was and waited to see what they would decide to do.

    They begun to beat me.

    From using a cane to whip my legs, forcing me to hold a cup of boiling water, to physically manipulating my body in painful ways. The torment was endless. I was determined to rid my body of the demons, so I went ahead with it. A good amount of time passed with this going on. Bilal, unable to bear what he'd been watching, left the room and cried. I just sat there enduring it for maybe half an hour, perhaps an hour or more, I completely lost track of time. Each time, they'd say to the demon, or perhaps me.

    "Speak!" and each time I was tempted to say something, to pretend I was in fact the demon, so the torture would desist, but I never did. I had already tried to deceive them in ways I wasn't happy with. When they'd beat me I'd pretend it didn't hurt much, but when they'd make me drink Quranic water, I'd react to it in a really bad way, making myself believe that would probably harm the Jinns more. I hoped they'd stick to that so they wouldn't keep beating me. It worked for a while, but only for so long. Eventually the beatings were too hard to bear. They were obviously much more effective than the water. I writhed, cried, squirmed. It went on.

    "Speak!" I wanted to speak, I really did. I could just pretend to be possessed and it'd be over, but I couldn't. I just couldn't do it. I couldn't lie. I couldn't deceive them, besides, I was actually possessed. I couldn't just come out and pretend the demon was talking when it would probably end up doing that itself and again I had already tried deceiving them, that hadn't gone so well for my conscience. I remained quiet. It took every part of my integrity to do, but I simply refused to speak. I'd lied before, I've lied many times, but, unlike what Ray Comfort would like to say, I'm not a liar. I do not routinely reap the benefit of expedient advantages and lie to the people around me. Lies cheapen my relationship with people, I couldn't do it so overtly. No matter how much pain I was in.

    "Speak!" the man had endless patience. Perhaps somehow he enjoyed this, torturing evil demons for Allah, he must have felt like this was a righteous thing to do. I think we do the worst things when we're sure we're right, because then, who's to say you're wrong? I sometimes think about that exorcist dude. I don't think he's evil, he's not doing this to hurt people. He's just managed to put together an effective means of deceiving himself. Soon, I'd be thanking him for relieving me of the demons that inhabited my body and he'd be feeling a sense of fulfilment for having helped a poor Jinn infested muslim boy, but for now, I'd have to speak.

    I didn't.

    No matter how long it went on, I refused to speak. I tried to deceive myself into speaking, but I knew what I was doing. That said, I did deceive them in another way.

    I had this weird habit. Sometimes when I was alone, I'd sit, almost in meditation and extend my arms, pretending I wasn't in control of them, that they were being controlled by mystical powers. It was a game I'd play alone from a young age, I'd not done it often recently, but I'd become connected with that state of mind again when the exorcist brought a pen and paper claiming that some Jinns can't take full control of a body, so perhaps it could write instead.

    Pen in hand, paper below, I closed my eyes, connecting with that mystical game.

    I realised I was about to lie and dropped the pen. I immediately heard the crack of the cane against my legs and the pen was put back into my hand. I closed my eyes, feeling the sting of pain on my calves, imagining that my arms were not mine, that they were being controlled by something else. I didn't care if it was true or not. I couldn't anymore...

    "What is your name?" they asked. I wanted to respond as honestly as possible, the first name that came into my head was the name of a girl I knew at the time.

    "Mansi" I imagined the words and the movements of my hand as I scribbled the words on the paper.

    "M- Ma- Maria?", somehow they read it differently than I'd imagined. I had scribbled the words onto the paper almost unintelligbly. I took this to mean that perhaps I wasn't deceiving them, perhaps my arms were being controlled all along. I wanted to believe that, I needed to.

    I continued this way, writing whatever came to mind as they asked me. Slowly feeling less and less guilty as they stopped being violent. I was only half aware that I was in control. I assure you, reader, when you're beaten and pushed far enough, you'll believe anything to stop the pain. I say I was half-aware because I answered the questions they asked very oppurtinistically.

    "How long have you been inside his body?" they asked.

    "10 years" I wrote. I did this because in that amount of time I'd have been too young to know all the incantations my father taught me. In doing this, I'd escape his punishment.

    Along with things like that though, I was trying really hard to believe this shit as it happened. I didn't want to feel like I was lying, so my answers were haphazard, almost random sometimes. This only made the whole event more believable.

    In the end, I had pretended to be 4 different demons, a family of Jinns that didn't mean any harm, they just liked being around me.

    "What's your name?" they asked the second one.

    "James" I replied. I could think of something more believable now, but I was just writing whatever random words came to my head at the time. I was presented with a new problem, however, when James the Jinn was asked to leave my body, they were prepared to beat me to make this happen, but I wasn't quite sure what a demon leaving a body would look like. Was I supposed to just say "Okay, I'm going now" and then just say "Okay he's gone" as me? or...

    "Leave this body!" The excorcist grabbed the cane. I didn't really give a fuck at this point, I didn't want to be beaten again, I was going to give them a display that they wouldn't forget. I wasn't going to be coy about this, this was madness, I was insane, I had to do something in that instant to make it work.

    I threw an epileptic fit.

    Well, I feigned one, I think. A lot was going through my mind at the time. I wasn't entirely sure what I was doing or if it even looked right, but I remember being mildly annoyed when they made me repeat the little show for each Jinn inside me.

    That was a little tedious.

    Nevertheless, it was over. I was free, I've never had such a feeling of relief in my entire life. My body felt lighter, my mind was whizzing, I was high. I took this to mean that perhaps I really was possessed, I felt lighter because, perhaps I wasn't deceiving them. Perhaps that's how possession works, they tell you what to do and you do it. Maybe I was possessed, but then, maybe I just deceived them all. Maybe I felt good because the torment was over.

    It sounds stupid, but that question would bother me for years to come.

    Did I deceive them?

    I took every excuse to believe otherwise, thus enforcing my beliefs.

    To make matters worse, the following day, the exorcist reckoned that the Jinns had returned.

    I knew how to deal with that.

    I think I was much more aware of my deception the second time, but oddly I felt less guilty about it.

    That said, let me get back to my original point. Confabulation. That event may seem innocent enough (well other than the part where I'm beaten up), but the stories told by one particular individual a year after the events had changed. Somehow, extra parts of the story that were only half true had crept into his account of it.

    "Then his hand pointed towards the window and the curtains shook as the Jinns went through it" that, that shit right there, didn't happen. A few of his claims of what happenerrd also didn't, but what did the others do, including myself, when he retold the story? We simply agreed.

    I agreed because I was trying to put most of it out of memory. It was a traumatic experience and I felt guilty for maybe having led people into believing an amazing thing that didn't happen. Also, though, I agreed because it was my father.

    "It was like a horror movie right?" He said.

    "y-yeah" I muttered in response.

    Why the other people simply agreed with him is up for questioning, but this taught me how easily stories could be created and recreated by minds. People didn't have to have shared hallucinations for groups to believe crazy things, right here I witnessed human minds "telephoning" an experience before the story had even passed to another.

    This wasn't the first or last time I'd seen a story distorted by the very witnesses and then only to see said witnesses agreeing on a new distortion. In fact it happens all the time. Memories can be planted, rewritten and given to humans by others intentionally or unintentionally. Especially a year or two after the event.

    Funny then that we're asked to accept miracle claims from people that wrote about what they or perhaps someone else saw 50-100 years after the events took place.

    All that said and done. Around the time all of this was going through my mind Tianna, still not quite able to trust me, distanced herself from me and our relationship dwindled. The Refinery, where I worked, would all but shutdown. Bilal would find a job and move out and I would find myself sitting alone in a dark room, with little food, no money and unable to pay rent.

    "Life has never been this good bro!" Bilal began, "I swear, I didn't even know life could get this good, I didn't know it was even possible." He seemed so happy. I was happy for him. One of us had made something of ourselves. The other one was just stubborn. Bilal wanted me to move into his new apartment, but I wasn't sure at that time, what would make me happy. I had no food, no money, no way to pay rent for a tiny box room, but I enjoyed the solitary confines of that dark windowless place. I wasn't really after riches or comforts, the only thing I wanted was the one thing I would never get.

    Tianna.

    And I didn't feel as though I could be happy until I did.

    "Are you guys ready to come back yet?" It seemed that my brother, Khalil, didn't get it. He seemed to think we were trying to rebel by leaving home, that we decided that we'd do something we essentially thought was wrong. He couldn't have been further from the truth. I left because our father was insane enough to attack and threaten us with death over mere theological differences. I wanted to respond to him by asking how he had the audacity to assume that there was something amiss about us that founded the reasons for our absence, but I couldn't, I didn't have the energy nor did he have the ability to completey understand what I would have meant if I had said it. No one at home could.

    "No..." I replied.

    Slowly, I begun seeing in them that horrific thing I used to be.

    I used to be powerful, then I started blogging.
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #48 - April 03, 2012, 06:14 PM

    Quote
    "It's hard to find out information on Inuit history because they didn't really keep a written record for everything, to further my point, it's true that Muslims actually spread the good news of the religion to American Indians before Christian Europe had gotten there, but most of this knowledge has been wiped out by the European invasion of that continent. If they could do this to Islam that was spread in the last century, then doing so to any other unwritten message that came before would be much much easier." I stumbled upon a few essays and documents that had suggested that Islamic explorers had found the Americas before the Europeans had and spread Islam to a few of the Indian tribes, I'm not sure of the exact truth of that, but it made a fine excuse. She begrudgingly accepted.


    Are you aware how many tribes there are in North (as well as Central and South) America?

    Even if islam was wiped out in the west, I will put money on the line that if it DID crop up, it would be
    included in their oral traditions.  I would further scrutinize this theory, and demand to know
    WHAT TRIBES had accepted Islam, and demand to know WHO preached it.  Muslims are so
    vain, they would have incredibly detailed records of American indian tribes they dawah-ed.

    The "good" Jinn has spoken.   cool2

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #49 - April 04, 2012, 08:30 AM

    Quote
    Are you aware how many tribes there are in North (as well as Central and South) America?


    No, but I am very aware of how much bollocks my apology for Islam was. That's the important part  Wink

    I used to be powerful, then I started blogging.
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #50 - April 04, 2012, 09:33 AM

    You give me a Chris Rockoid vibe to me Smiley

  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #51 - April 04, 2012, 11:00 AM

    I gotta say I normally skim walls of text but I have enjoyed reading every paragraph you've wrote so far. At times while reading I felt like I can empathize a little with your story and at most others I feel like I can't even begin to imagine what it has been like. I look forward to the next installment.  Afro
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #52 - April 04, 2012, 11:15 AM

    ^ +100
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #53 - April 04, 2012, 11:38 AM

    Thanks a lot everyone, it really means a whole lot to me to have people willing to read this.

    Writing this is really helping me wrap my mind around all this and come to terms with it.

    I used to be powerful, then I started blogging.
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #54 - April 04, 2012, 12:00 PM


    You're a good writer and what you write is compelling mate.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #55 - April 04, 2012, 01:11 PM

    ^i concur..
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #56 - April 04, 2012, 01:40 PM

    You're a good writer and what you write is compelling mate.


    Good??   

    PureInertia  is a terrific writer .. a very rare talent there..

     
    .......................................

    First, let me tell you exactly what happened.

    When I pretended to be possessed the second time, I actually believed I was. I was accused of having Jinn's inhabiting my body because of my reaction to listening to the Quran being blasted into my ears with these massive headphones, whilst being told to sit completely still in a specific position. I looked around the room, afraid that I'd be accused of being possessed somehow. Barely able to hear what they were saying as they, the exorcist, my father and a family friend, stood around me, I wondered what punishments my father would have in store for me if it would be found that I was possessed. I tried to relax and sit back against the sofa, but I wasn't allowed. I was made to sit up with my back straight and my palms faced upwards on my knees.

    I begun trembling.

    "That means he's possessed," A family friend, translated what the exorcist had said himself as the exorcist could only speak Arabic. I heard that part very clearly, so I begun shaking more. They stood around me talking to each other about what to do with the demon that was inside me. I couldn't completely hear what they were saying, but I had heard what happened to a few other people that were accused of being possessed by this same exorcist and knew this wasn't going to end pretty. I braced myself, trembling more. I wasn't shaking like normal, by now I was convinced of my own possession which only served to aggravate the symptoms. This is called the nocebo effect. Just like giving someone a sugar pill as medicine can help their road to recovery; placebo, giving someone the same thing as poison can cause them to exhibit the symptoms of sickness; nocebo. Of course, placebo and nocebo don't have to be delivered in sugar pill form, they can be anything from something acupuncture to a simple ritual. The person only needs to believe they are being made better/worse. Realising that the shaking was a symptom of demonic possession, I begun to shake more. More than was natural or usual. I didn't try to fight it, I knew I was possessed. I accepted it for what it was and waited to see what they would decide to do.

    They begun to beat me.

    From using a cane to whip my legs, forcing me to hold a cup of boiling water, to physically manipulating my body in painful ways. The torment was endless. I was determined to rid my body of the demons, so I went ahead with it. A good amount of time passed with this going on. Bilal, unable to bear what he'd been watching, left the room and cried. I just sat there enduring it for maybe half an hour, perhaps an hour or more, I completely lost track of time. Each time, they'd say to the demon, or perhaps me.
    .........................................

    Slowly, I begun seeing in them that horrific thing I used to be.

    Damn  did that really happened PureInertia?? 

     Childhood nightmare  comes in to my head..these fucking jinns in the brains of those exorcist ruined lives of many people I know


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfJvezncLjI

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5OBoK97o7Q

    Hmm  that guy is dr. Jamil.,  that guy has stethoscope and white coat., Now I am also afraid these guys apart from those exorcists..


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T4Zc9bNJfI


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #57 - April 05, 2012, 05:35 AM

    I just wanted to comment on something very specific that struck me as a woman.

    ""It's not that Allah elevates men over women, it's that we just have different roles. Who is to take care of the pregnant woman when she's at her weakest? When she's raising children? The natural way is for men to do this. This is the way god has made it."

    To a man yes the woman appears her weakest but this where she must be her strongest. To carry the pains of carrying the precious life in her stomach, as well as to giving birth. To call a pregnant woman weak is to call a warrior who is tired after fighting a hard brutal battle weak. If a woman is truly weak then the life which she carries would be lost. If she is strong then that new life will be successfully be born. A man is needed for only the few minutes to create life, the rest of the process is on the shoulders of women for 9 months and a few years after. Other women can care for a pregnant woman (such as mid-wives, her sisters etc.) in her weaken state not necessarily a man, so to make that a gender specific role is irrelevant. 


    Besides that very interesting story.

    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #58 - April 05, 2012, 06:18 AM

    MOAR, MOAR!

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: Deconverting From Radical Islam
     Reply #59 - April 05, 2012, 06:19 AM

    I really can't wait for the part when you actually meet Tianna for the first time.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »