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 Topic: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!

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  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #30 - September 17, 2012, 07:31 PM
    Sure, that says that a lot of Guardian readers are more sceptical. What I mean is the posts that the moderators pick out as a 'Guardian Pick' - are generally the apologetic ones.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #31 - September 17, 2012, 07:42 PM
    Quote from: Yume89 on September 17, 2012, 05:16 PM
    I hate how Western women who are supposed to be well-educated (compared to many women in the Arab world) get brainwashed and convert to Islam and help breed ignorance (Islam honors women, etc)


    Lmao You know what ? They will tell you that you don't know true Islam.

    At least they can't accuse you of not knowing Arabic! rofl rofl, but they could still say you don't know the Arabic of the Koran !   Cheesy Cheesy

    I love it when they blame everything bad on the culture without holding the religion culpable. My point is if even after 1,400 years the religion hasn't brought about the supposed good that it professes; of what use is it to humanity? Despite the threat of hell people are still merrily going about doing evil and to add salt to injury claim divine support! mysmilie_977
    IMO women,especially western women ,who say "Islam honours women", are either mentally sick, lovesick if you will or arrogantly stupid.
    Sorry! honour,respect, etc are not statutory but have to be earned and besides these are attributes that accrue from the accomplishments of INDIVIDUALS. Any group is an abstraction a mere statistical aggregate. Anyway unconditional honour,respect, etc. is phony.

    Shame on the west for dishonouring its women,you need to learn from Islam ! Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Tongue


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #32 - September 17, 2012, 07:50 PM
    Quote
    I love it when they blame everything bad on the culture without holding the religion culpable


    Yes they blame the culture!!! There is a Canadian convert, a second wife to a Bedouin, who keeps saying that I left Islam because I mixed it up with my culture. She just cannot accept the fact that Islam doesn't make sense to me any longer!

    Oh and when I talk about FGM, she always says Mohammed never said FGM was ok.

    Then I wonder why he didn't put it straight and say FGM wasn't OK -_-
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #33 - September 17, 2012, 07:53 PM
    Quote from: billy on September 17, 2012, 04:38 PM
    I wish you would post that under the article Ishina, but you'd probably get censored.

    No doubt there is a lot of abusive stuff under articles like this that is reasonably deleted because its ad hominem abuse, but even stuff like that, which is robust but insightful, sometimes gets censored on their religious threads.

    One way to find out.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #34 - September 17, 2012, 07:57 PM
    ha, lets see.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #35 - September 17, 2012, 07:58 PM

    There are some gems in there. This is supportive of the article:

    Quote
    Islamaphobia by its nature is an irrational fear of islam those who depict Muhammad as anything but the best of mankind do themselves an injustice.


    Where to begin with this? If you don't depict Muhammad as the best of mankind you're an Islamophobe.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #36 - September 17, 2012, 08:01 PM
    Quote from: Tonyt on September 17, 2012, 03:00 PM
    Really?

    There is a someone called Billioislove who has a writing style just like yours and brings up the same kind of issues that you often bring up.

    That’s some other chap. In fact, I follow him on Twitter.

    I liked this comment by someone using a Woody Allen avatar:

    Quote
    The fact that countries like Saudi Arabia use the Hadiths to justify men marrying underage girls is only a reflection of a patriarchal and oppressive society.

    Once again the patriarchal and oppressive nature of religion is conveniently let off the hook- and yet it's because of the religion that they justify their practices.

  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #37 - September 17, 2012, 08:40 PM
    Quote from: Yume89 on September 17, 2012, 07:50 PM
    Yes they blame the culture!!! There is a Canadian convert, a second wife to a Bedouin, who keeps saying that I left Islam because I mixed it up with my culture. She just cannot accept the fact that Islam doesn't make sense to me any longer!

    Oh and when I talk about FGM, she always says Mohammed never said FGM was ok.

    Then I wonder why he didn't put it straight and say FGM wasn't OK -_-


    The zeal of the convert ?   A bunch of them can give you a preview of zombie apocalypse.
    He was a smart cookie you see, straight talking is suicidal for cons and frauds so he loved his metaphors and made his followers hallucinate about beauty,divinity and what have you.
    If he had said upfront you can beat your women the game would have been up long back.
    So he invents a nebulous sura where a miswak is involved and the door is opened for any number of ridiculous interpretations so that the apologists and the faithful can confabulate and defend their beloved prophet,in the mean time  a wife beater can go about his business peacefully thinking that he has allah's permission. He would be someone who loves metaphors.
    BTW how can something that's the clear word of GOD use metaphors ? Are all the followers poets or scholars ? It's funny because they claim " direct connection with GOD" as one of its USP s. Why does the guaranteed "direct connection" need intermediaries ?

    ETA: FFS she has no problem being the second wife ! Was she a Mormon before conversion?


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #38 - September 18, 2012, 02:07 AM
    Quote from: -Tmp- on September 17, 2012, 01:45 PM
    This article brought to you by a deluded hijabi.   bullshit

     

    haha so true.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #39 - September 18, 2012, 06:41 AM
    Quote from: billy on September 17, 2012, 07:57 PM
    ha, lets see.

    It's still there this morning.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #40 - September 18, 2012, 07:04 AM
    Quote from: Tonyt on September 17, 2012, 03:32 PM
    The only explanation I can think is a combination of being afraid of violence and not caring enough about it. (i.e. Islam does not affect them or their own families so why risk upsetting a bunch of angry fanatics when your own society has nothing to gain from it). But still this does not explain it fully because usually leftists will go out of their way to highlight the plight of some poor, opressed people on the other side of the world. The only explanation can be that the threat of violence is so real and so strong that they decide it is not something they want to tackle....

    I think it's guilt as much as anything. Guilt for stuff they didn't do.

    Their good intentions have been horribly warped, but they are so attached to the idea of their goodness that they are blind to the warping.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #41 - September 18, 2012, 11:37 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on September 18, 2012, 06:41 AM
    It's still there this morning.


    Where?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #42 - September 18, 2012, 12:04 PM
     Huh? Cheesy It's like searching for a needle in the haystack there!


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #43 - September 18, 2012, 12:41 PM
    I feel vindicated in the 'i hate' thread

    Quote from: dr_sloth on May 04, 2012, 02:41 PM
    (Clicky for piccy!)

    the too smug for words; Myriam Francois-Cerrah, and her collection of trendy hijabs

  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #44 - September 18, 2012, 01:22 PM
    I'm interested as to where the account of Aisha being 19 came from.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #45 - September 18, 2012, 02:14 PM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji9W0MiBie4
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #46 - September 18, 2012, 03:21 PM
    Where does the Quran say that marriage between people should be between 2 consenting adults, I see some people keep repeating this there, I am not sure if I have ever read such a thing in Islam.

    Also what about this Claims???

    Actually, your memory fails you Tony. This is a matter of statistical history so there is never a determinable and provable number in the sources. Furthermore, according to Tabari, the most authoritative Islamic historian she is 19. According to Imam Abdullah al-Khatib, Hadith compiler, she is 19. Ibn Kathir, famous Islamic chronicler also corresponds to the two previous sources.

    Therefore, it is you who lack references and are distorting, for whatever purpose, the age of Aisha. At the battle of badr', it is one of the most soundly established events that specifically 313 men fought against the Meccans who numbered over one thousand. Yet in Bukhari, it says 317 which all the scholars unanimously agree to be erroneous. This is not a clear cut affair, and a little more integrity on your behalf would not go unnoticed rather than presenting your wholly mischievous reply as a matter of academic fact.



    WHERE DOES THE QURAN SAY THIS. I have read the Quran and it might say this because I don't remember what I read a very long time ago, so, does anyone know where does the Quran say this:


    Critics allege that Aisha was just six years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad, himself in his 50s, and only nine when the marriage was consummated. They base this on a saying attributed to Aisha herself (Sahih Bukhari volume 5, book 58, number 234), and the debate on this issue is further complicated by the fact that some Muslims believe this to be a historically accurate account. Although most Muslims would not consider marrying off their nine-year-old daughters, those who accept this saying argue that since the Qur'an states that marriage is void unless entered into by consenting adults, Aisha must have entered puberty early.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #47 - September 18, 2012, 03:35 PM
    Tabari isn't a sahih collection and is usually dismissed by most muslims.

    is it only of use to them when it backs up a defence they have?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #48 - September 18, 2012, 03:38 PM
    Grin  Do you have any idea how many times muslims have refused to accept tabari in an argument because he is not sahih, how is he the most authoritative voice on Islamic history if he is not sahih, and is dismissed in favour of those that are? 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #49 - September 18, 2012, 03:41 PM
    I think there is a hadith in which Mohammed said he would marry a baby girl when grown up. He liked her, which means he kinda had a lust for her!
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #50 - September 18, 2012, 03:43 PM
    @ BerberElla:

    I checked what Tabari had to say about Aisha's marriage, the guy I quoted is obviously Lying, this is what Tabari says:

    Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated when she was nine. However, al-Tabari records that she was ten.

    Source: D. A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: the Legacy of A'isha bint Abi Bakr, Columbia University Press, 1994, p. 40

    I was wondering in what basis did the reporter make this claim:

    Critics allege that Aisha was just six years old when she was betrothed to Muhammad, himself in his 50s, and only nine when the marriage was consummated. They base this on a saying attributed to Aisha herself (Sahih Bukhari volume 5, book 58, number 234), and the debate on this issue is further complicated by the fact that some Muslims believe this to be a historically accurate account. Although most Muslims would not consider marrying off their nine-year-old daughters, those who accept this saying argue that since the Qur'an states that marriage is void unless entered into by consenting adults, Aisha must have entered puberty early.


    OK she made the same claim 2 times, not only once, where is the reference about the Quran saying that marriage is valid only if it is done among 2 consenting adults???

    Because of this, it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse. As the living embodiment of Islam, Muhammad's actions reflect the Qur'an's teachings on marriage, even if the actions of some Muslim regimes and individuals do not.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #51 - September 18, 2012, 03:45 PM
    Plus I am highly doubtful it is in Tabari anyway. I have never heard anyone saying that before.

    I have not read Tabari, but seeing as Tabari got his info on the Life of Muhammad from Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Ishaq does not mention the age of Aisha then I really doubt that he says she was 19.

    The only way to be sure would be to buy a copy of Tabari yourself, or get it at the library and check it. But i am pretty sure he does not say that.

    I think when he says "according to Tabari she is 19", what he really means is according to some passage in Tabari where it says that Aisha was present at some battle, she must have been at least such and such an age when the battle occured to be there (they wouldn't bring a baby to a battle) so therefore she must have been older than 9 when the marriage occured.

    So in other words by investigating the info in Tabari we can deduce that she was older than 9, perhaps 19. This I have heard Muslims saying before.

    That commenter is probably just mistaking what someone else wrote at some point and is now convinced that tabari said she was 19 when he probably has not even looked himself.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #52 - September 18, 2012, 03:48 PM
    In Islamic countries you can marry your children to other people, it;s called a betrothal, and in order to comply with the whole 'consent' thing, she is supposed to be asked when she comes of age.

    Age being when she bleeds.

    Bleeding does not = her vagina being ready for sex under any circumstance, just that her journey is starting to full maturity.

    Even if Aisha began to bleed aged 9, she was not physically ready for sex, and consent is easily and fearfully give since bleeding again does not = maturity.

    The quran is too vague about how and what = maturity.  A woman is a woman when she bleeds. 

    Either way though, I'm curious about you choosing to use Tabari when he is not really that acceptable.   Huh?

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #53 - September 18, 2012, 03:52 PM
    Quote from: sturmgewehr on September 18, 2012, 03:43 PM


    Because of this, it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was. What we do know is what the Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse. As the living embodiment of Islam, Muhammad's actions reflect the Qur'an's teachings on marriage, even if the actions of some Muslim regimes and individuals do not.


    Hmm I read the Quran several times but I'm still trying to remember where it says so!!!!
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #54 - September 18, 2012, 03:54 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on September 18, 2012, 03:48 PM
    Either way though, I'm curious about you choosing to use Tabari when he is not really that acceptable.   Huh?


    Quote from: Tonyt on September 18, 2012, 03:45 PM
    So in other words by investigating the info in Tabari we can deduce that she was older than 9, perhaps 19. This I have heard Muslims saying before.


    I was not suggesting that this is correct or that I agree with it. All I was saying is that I have heard Muslims trying to use this argument before.

    I was trying to rationalize why that commenter said "according to Tabari she was 19".
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #55 - September 18, 2012, 04:00 PM
    The first period usually doesn't even contain an egg, and girls often remain anovular for a long time.
    A young girl is unlikely to even be fertile, let alone mature. Period or not
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #56 - September 18, 2012, 04:02 PM
    @ Tonyt: Even According to Tabari she was not 19 when the marriage was consumed, she was 10.

    Quote
    Aisha stayed in her parents' home for several years until she joined Muhammad and the marriage was consummated when she was nine. However, al-Tabari records that she was ten.

    Source: D. A. Spellberg, Politics, Gender, and the Islamic Past: the Legacy of A'isha bint Abi Bakr, Columbia University Press, 1994, p. 40


    @ BerberElla:

    I wasn't asking what people in Islamic countries do and how they marry their kids, I was simply asking what does the Quran say about the age of consent concerning marriage, what Islamic countries do might definitely not be what the Quran says.

    I think KlingSchor dealt with this issue in one of his videos and I think he had done a pretty damn good research on this matter, his conclusion was that the Quran is completely MUTE on this issue.

    Tell me BerberElla, how do you define a woman? If what makes a woman is her menstrual cycle then Islamics are justified that if Aisha was bleeding out of her vagina she was a Woman thus woman are a wife material, I don't think that is the case, even if a Girl gets her menstrual period at the age of 7 that doesn't mean she is a woman, she is a Child, I think what consists a woman is mental maturity.

    Take it this way, what if there was a woman who has never had her period?? How do we call her? a baby girl? of course not.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #57 - September 18, 2012, 04:12 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on September 18, 2012, 04:00 PM
    The first period usually doesn't even contain an egg, and girls often remain anovular for a long time.
    A young girl is unlikely to even be fertile, let alone mature. Period or not




    The average age of menarche in the United States is about 12.5 years[a]. In postmenarchal girls, about 80% of the cycles are anovulatory in the first year after menarche, 50% in the third and 10% in the sixth year. [c]

    Sources: a) Anderson SE, Dallal GE, Must A (April 2003). "Relative weight and race influence average age at menarche: results from two nationally representative surveys of US girls studied 25 years apart" . Pediatrics 111 (4 Pt 1): 844–50. doi:10.1542/peds.111.4.844 . PMID 12671122.

    b) Apter D (February 1980). "Serum steroids and pituitary hormones in female puberty: a partly longitudinal study". Clin. Endocrinol. (Oxf) 12 (2): 107–20. doi:10.1111/j.1365-2265.1980.tb02125.x . PMID 6249519.

    c) Apter D (February 1980). "Serum steroids and pituitary hormones in female puberty: a partly longitudinal study" . Clin. Endocrinol. (Oxf) 12 (2): 107–20. doi:10.1111/j.1365-2265.1980.tb02125.x . PMID 6249519.
  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #58 - September 18, 2012, 04:19 PM
    Oh I got it! Lol finally I remembered something about marriage in the Quran. This verse is taken from the chapter of divorce. It's not about when marriage is valid but about divorce:

    اللَّائِي يَئِسْنَ مِنَ الْمَحِيضِ مِن نِّسَائِكُمْ إِنِ ارْتَبْتُمْ فَعِدَّتُهُنَّ ثَلَاثَةُ أَشْهُرٍ وَاللَّائِي لَمْ يَحِضْنَ وَأُوْلَاتُ الْأَحْمَالِ أَجَلُهُنَّ أَن يَضَعْنَ حَمْلَهُنَّ وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِ يُسْرًا

    "Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. " [65:4]

    That part shows that it's fine in Islam to marry girls who didn't even have their first period.

  • Re: Muhammad & Aisha article in Guardian... comment now!
     Reply #59 - September 18, 2012, 04:22 PM
    I'm not defining a woman as being a woman because she has a period, I was saying she isn't, that's just the islamic justification for why you can have sex with young girls.

    As to what makes a woman, as in someone old enough to have sex with?  dodgy area to put a number on, 15-16 is still young but it happens so often in the UK I'm guessing that's the age that people want to try having sex themselves.  still doesn't make them women as in mature adults since they don't fully understand the consequences as well as age and wisdom will.

    I find it hard to say an age since it varies for each individual, I can't even say when she feels ready since she can be groomed to feel ready sooner.

    I'm just saying I think that bleeding doesn't all of the sudden make her old enough for sex.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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