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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: How much knowledge of Islam did you have when you apostatisized?
  • I was a dawah master/scholar I had that shit memorized - 3 (6.5%)
  • Too much for my own good. - 27 (58.7%)
  • Average knowledge. - 12 (26.1%)
  • Barely any... just kind of left.. - 4 (8.7%)
  • Total Voters: 45

 Topic: The More you know the Less you want

 (Read 9118 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #30 - February 26, 2013, 08:11 PM
    Quote
    I have said this before and I'll say it again, although most of us would like to argue that ours was a purely intellectual rejection of Islam, I maintain that one needs emotional factors to give us that jolt to wake us up. In my own case I suspect it was several things including divorce, death of certain loved ones, and events like 911.



    I agree.  When I first started doubting Islam, it was because I was going through a really tough, long spell in my life. (that unfortunately still exists now) But that was really never enough for me to give-up my faith.... it only made doubts occur. Nothing more.

    What made me give-up all of this shit, was actually investigating those doubts. (i,e- reading about other subjects, Islam, etc.)

    That's probably the only positive out of this tough spell - Leaving Islam.

    Alhamdulilah wallah.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #31 - February 26, 2013, 08:40 PM
    The whole kids thing is another HUGE reason. No matter what I was willing to rationalize what I was doing, there was no way I could be responsible for perpetuating that nonsense on to my kids.

    Two strong examples stick out right now, though there were many. I remember one day I was driving in the car with a Saudi friend of mine and my son who was either 4 or 5 at the time. We passed by a Jewish cemetery, and the Saudi guy exclaims “Abshiroo bin-naar, Jahannam wa bi’sal maseer!” He then tried to get my son to say it, and my son began repeating it. As my son asked what it meant, the guy went on about how the jews would be in hell and yada yada yada. My son had classmates who were Jewish. All he knew was that they were kids like him. I felt so embarrassed that I was subjecting my son to that sort of bigotry.

    Also, my daughter one day drew a picture of me and her holding hands in a green field with the sun shining. It was a great picture for her age, and she was very proud of it. But of course, there were faces on it. I remember looking at it and of course the hadith about Allah cursing picture drawers came to mind. I expressly remember thinking, “You know what, fuck you Allah. What the hell is wrong with you anyway, dude? If you know you are the “best of creators,” why the hell would you be upset and intimidated over a little girl drawing a picture?”

    Knowing that there was no way I would want to pass this twisted mess of a religion on to my kids was a huge emotional factor for me.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #32 - February 26, 2013, 08:46 PM
    I agree with you Hassan on "emotional factors". For me personally even though I am a man, it was the plight of womens in islam that made me really pissed off. Especially the hypocrisy when it comes to upbringing of Muslims boys vs Muslim girls.

    I also felt a deep existensial emptiness when I said to myself "I cant keep on believing in this religion".

    PS: Kudos to you happymurtad. Do you have a blog?
    "Beauty is truth, truth beauty," - that is all
            Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know.

    - John Keats
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #33 - February 26, 2013, 08:57 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 26, 2013, 08:40 PM
    The whole kids thing is another HUGE reason. No matter what I was willing to rationalize what I was doing, there was no way I could be responsible for perpetuating that nonsense on to my kids.

    Two strong examples stick out right now, though there were many. I remember one day I was driving in the car with a Saudi friend of mine and my son who was either 4 or 5 at the time. We passed by a Jewish cemetery, and the Saudi guy exclaims “Abshiroo bin-naar, Jahannam wa bi’sal maseer!” He then tried to get my son to say it, and my son began repeating it. As my son asked what it meant, the guy went on about how the jews would be in hell and yada yada yada. My son had classmates who were Jewish. All he knew was that they were kids like him. I felt so embarrassed that I was subjecting my son to that sort of bigotry.

    Also, my daughter one day drew a picture of me and her holding hands in a green field with the sun shining. It was a great picture for her age, and she was very proud of it. But of course, there were faces on it. I remember looking at it and of course the hadith about Allah cursing picture drawers came to mind. I expressly remember thinking, “You know what, fuck you Allah. What the hell is wrong with you anyway, dude? If you know you are the “best of creators,” why the hell would you be upset and intimidated over a little girl drawing a picture?”

    Knowing that there was no way I would want to pass this twisted mess of a religion on to my kids was a huge emotional factor for me.



    I was worried about my kids but from a slightly different angle. I was worried that saying I no longer believed after having taught them Islam was the truth would confuse them and may harm them. But I decided honesty was my only course. Children are resilient and they would find their own way.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #34 - February 27, 2013, 02:24 AM
    I'm sorry you had to lose your kids murtad :/ to your religious wife's family. Will you ever see them again?
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #35 - February 27, 2013, 04:42 AM
    I remember a salafi sister talking to me about how hard it was "to find baby clothes without any images on it"

    I srsly wanted to smack her

    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #36 - February 27, 2013, 07:53 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 26, 2013, 08:40 PM
    Two strong examples stick out right now, though there were many. I remember one day I was driving in the car with a Saudi friend of mine and my son who was either 4 or 5 at the time. We passed by a Jewish cemetery, and the Saudi guy exclaims “Abshiroo bin-naar, Jahannam wa bi’sal maseer!” He then tried to get my son to say it, and my son began repeating it. As my son asked what it meant, the guy went on about how the jews would be in hell and yada yada yada. My son had classmates who were Jewish. All he knew was that they were kids like him. I felt so embarrassed that I was subjecting my son to that sort of bigotry.

    Also, my daughter one day drew a picture of me and her holding hands in a green field with the sun shining. It was a great picture for her age, and she was very proud of it. But of course, there were faces on it. I remember looking at it and of course the hadith about Allah cursing picture drawers came to mind. I expressly remember thinking, “You know what, fuck you Allah. What the hell is wrong with you anyway, dude? If you know you are the “best of creators,” why the hell would you be upset and intimidated over a little girl drawing a picture


    I skim read these first time and didnt take them in. Yes I can see how that would have a powerful effect, especially the first example. Mx ex and family still say stuff to them that bothers me. But I'm able to explain to them now and they understand he situation and are able to think for themselves.

    I may have missed where you talked about your situation HM but I assume you are divorced or separated ? Do you see the children a lot?
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #37 - February 27, 2013, 11:01 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 26, 2013, 05:33 PM
    For me it wasn't finding out more about Islam but looking at it in a different way - a way I hadn't looked at it before. I think the process of confirmation bias and selective vision that sustains most believers in the face of overwhelming evidence, began to fail me and the pretty vision I had previously had of Islam gradually began to fade and I started seeing a much more ugly reality.


    It was an emotion of anger for me, because I felt left out of a relationship that I badly wanted to have but was told was sinful.    However, that wasn't enough because I just packed all the homophobic verse in a box like it didn't exist for a long time.  As if it didn't apply to me because I was somehow special.  But I still felt guilt and self loathing.   

    I think you reach a point of critical mass where finally you are open to something new because you just don't like the way this religion makes you feel about yourself, this world and the people around you.

    Also that theory about 911 is still in the community and a lot of people feel that bc of Palestine somehow 911 was justified which is nonsense.  I remember I used to believe it was as well and it turns my gut to think I was so cruel.

     
    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #38 - February 27, 2013, 11:26 AM
    It was definitely learning more about Islam that drove me away. I can't say there was really any emotional catalyst that started the process. I've always been a curious person but having no real social life meant I had plenty of online time and that's when my online life began. 

    I read and research a whole lot of random shit, and I mean completely random, I'm also a huge fan of documentaries. I just love knowledge and the pursuit of it, and a couple of years ago when my online activities began I was very fascinated by religion (with Islam being of particular interest) and read up briefly on the various religions; I looked into Islam so I could learn more and hopefully be more pious seeing as I'd gotten lazy and been neglecting my prayers. It pretty much all went downhill from there. 
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #39 - February 27, 2013, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 26, 2013, 08:40 PM
    Knowing that there was no way I would want to pass this twisted mess of a religion on to my kids was a huge emotional factor for me.


    I have a huge amount of respect for people like you. People who are willing to shatter their own identities, sense of stability and risk ostracism for the love of their children.

    One of the reasons why I began questioning was because one of the injunctions of Islam is dawah, and I remember thinking there is no way I can continue to invite people to Islam unless I follow these doubts wherever they take me.

     Like we all know following Islam can turn your life upside down, tear apart families, fuck up your dick  Cry , etc. There was no way I could in good conscience invite people to Islam without alleviating my own lingering doubts.
    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #40 - February 27, 2013, 02:49 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on February 27, 2013, 07:53 AM

    I may have missed where you talked about your situation HM but I assume you are divorced or separated ? Do you see the children a lot?


    Yes, I am divorced now. "Coming out," as it were, was very disastrous for me on the one hand. Practically everything that I anticipated happening really did happen. I almost don’t want to go into too much detail because it really does open up wounds that are just too much to deal with right now. My (ex) wife remarried to a brother who I knew (and used to teach Arabic to.)

    I used to see my kids regularly, but about a month ago they moved about 3 hours away. I’m dealing with that now.

    Honestly, I’m not sure if I made all the right moves, but I don’t know how I could have done things any differently either. The legal battle was so expensive and not overly productive for me. I try to be a bit stoic about the whole thing, but it’s tough. My daughter in particular is definitely the love of my life and not being there every day of her life is new for me. My son is almost a continuation of me--I really see my young self in him. He's an awesome little guy. So to not be there for those normal things we used to do together is like really, really shitty. There is no way to sugar coat it.

     Anyway, I can only hope that as the years go by, things will straighten themselves out. I don’t want to put too much stress on the kids, so when I speak to them (she is required to have them call me regularly) I try not to focus on anything negative.

    So yeah, that’s my deal.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #41 - February 27, 2013, 03:25 PM
    Big hugs to you Happy Murtad. That must be Si difficult but at the end of the day you have to be true to yourself because living a lie would have eaten away at you. I hope all goes well with your kids and their love and respect for you increases even with the distance.
    -------------------
    Believe in yourself
    -------------------
    Strike me down and I'll just become another nail in your coffin
    -------------------
    There's such a thing as sheep in wolfs clothing... religious fanatics
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #42 - February 27, 2013, 03:32 PM
    Yeah HM - maximum solidarity on that front with you and the sacrifices you've made after following your conscience.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #43 - February 27, 2013, 04:12 PM
    Thanks brothers.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #44 - February 27, 2013, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 27, 2013, 02:49 PM
    Yes, I am divorced now. "Coming out," as it were, was very disastrous for me on the one hand. Practically everything that I anticipated happening really did happen. I almost don’t want to go into too much detail because it really does open up wounds that are just too much to deal with right now. My (ex) wife remarried to a brother who I knew (and used to teach Arabic to.)

    I used to see my kids regularly, but about a month ago they moved about 3 hours away. I’m dealing with that now.

    Honestly, I’m not sure if I made all the right moves, but I don’t know how I could have done things any differently either. The legal battle was so expensive and not overly productive for me. I try to be a bit stoic about the whole thing, but it’s tough. My daughter in particular is definitely the love of my life and not being there every day of her life is new for me. My son is almost a continuation of me--I really see my young self in him. He's an awesome little guy. So to not be there for those normal things we used to do together is like really, really shitty. There is no way to sugar coat it.

     Anyway, I can only hope that as the years go by, things will straighten themselves out. I don’t want to put too much stress on the kids, so when I speak to them (she is required to have them call me regularly) I try not to focus on anything negative.

    So yeah, that’s my deal.



    I can feel your pain and really can empathise  far away hug my kids mean everything to me, and that's not a throw away line. This whole stupid world means nothing to me. Only them. And I have felt and continue to feel what they've gone through like a knife twisted in my heart. But I have been fortunate that they live with me most of time. Though my eldest daughter now lives with her mum and my eldest lives away from home but I see them regularly.

    You will have a good relationship with them, trust me. Dad is always dad just as mum is mum. No matter the situation now it will change and you will see them and have a good relationship with them. When I was a kid my mum and dad divorced and the court said we must live with mum and we hardly saw dad. But as I go older I spent more time with him and from age of 19 until he died in 2000 we had a wonderful relationship and I treasure those years. So it will be for you.

    You are clearly a wonderful, good-hearted,  witty and intelligent person nod your kids are lucky to have you as a dad and I know things will turn out ok. Just hang on.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #45 - February 27, 2013, 05:28 PM
    Thanks Hassan, that means a lot to me. I lost my father at a young age so the idea of my son growing up with out me there was always my biggest fear. I totally agree with you. The world literally means nothing to me, but when I'm around my kids, everything is perfect.

    It is strange that when I see them or talk to them, I have so much pain and emotion bottled up, but to them, everything is just normal. They are asking for toys, or to go to the park, or to go see a movie. To them, I'm just dad. It's like nothing ever happened. And that's the best feeling ever. Kids are kids at the end of the day, and being kids is exactly what I want to see them doing right now. It is my hope to stay as close as I can for now and to rekindle that really close relationship as they grow. If I had a prayer that could be answered, that would be it.

  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #46 - February 27, 2013, 05:55 PM
    Quote
    You are clearly a wonderful, good-hearted,  witty and intelligent person nod your kids are lucky to have you as a dad and I know things will turn out ok. Just hang on.


    Agreed.
    Do not go gentle into that good night.
    Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #47 - February 27, 2013, 05:59 PM
     far away hug
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #48 - February 27, 2013, 06:07 PM
    HappyMurtad, you are a man of courage for sacrificing your irrational religious passions for the freedom of your mind. I hope you re-unite with your daughter and son more often, and that things become much better. If anything, both will hopefully end up with the same intelligent mindset as you Smiley
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #49 - February 27, 2013, 06:12 PM
    Wow, HM that's so hard to read. Solidarity sent your way  far away hug

    Quote
    so when I speak to them (she is required to have them call me regularly) I try not to focus on anything negative.


    Great, great point and I admire you for this. I wish my own father could think above his abundant self-pity and irresponsibility and understand this.
    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #50 - February 27, 2013, 09:11 PM
    Hopefully things will get better for you dude.

    Glad that you're focusing on the positive.  Afro


    An alternative to religion;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2nfXfTg92E

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNW-NXEudk
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #51 - February 27, 2013, 10:24 PM
     Big hug for murtad
    ***~Church is where bad people go to hide~***
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #52 - February 27, 2013, 10:58 PM
    I don't post much (perhaps i feel a little bit like a don't belong as i am not an ex-muslim) but i read these forums everyday and feel like i know many of the member's here (Hassan, HM, nessrin etc) and i feel like i have to give a big   Big hug to happymurtad after reading this thred.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #53 - February 28, 2013, 05:21 AM
     far away hug to happymurtad. From the bottom of my heart, I really hope it all works out with your kids, and something tells me it will.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #54 - February 28, 2013, 07:29 AM
    It must be incredibly tough not being able to see your kids as often as you would like. Hope things get better for you soon and regardless of distance something tells me you are the best kind of dad a kid could wish to have  far away hug
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #55 - February 28, 2013, 07:35 AM
    Just went through this thread... big big Big hug from me too, HM. You are a great person and I am sure that your kids will appreciate you more and more the older they get. You have set examples for them by following your conscience, this is an invaluable thing you've done for them, and the sacrifices you've had to make, they will come to understand those too. May take a while, but they will come around to understand why you did what you did. Hang in there and yeah, just let them enjoy their childhood like you do... it's best for them and for you.

    You've made us all happy murtads too. Thank you for being part of this community.  Big hug
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #56 - February 28, 2013, 09:03 AM
    Quote from: allat on February 28, 2013, 07:35 AM
    You've made us all happy murtads too. Thank you for being part of this community.  Big hug


    ^This

    It was partly because I read some of your posts that I wanted to participate in the forum after a long break.
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #57 - February 28, 2013, 04:59 PM
    Aww thanks guys. You all just put a huge  grin12 on my face.  far away hug to all of you!
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #58 - March 01, 2013, 11:38 AM
    damn, and wow and hugs
    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • The More you know the Less you want
     Reply #59 - March 01, 2013, 01:11 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on February 28, 2013, 04:59 PM
    Aww thanks guys. You all just put a huge  grin12 on my face.  far away hug to all of you!


    At least you've got your cyber Prophethood (not to mention this adorable bunny rabbit  bunny)  thnkyu for your posts and  far away hug

    We eagerly await your next revelation (and pls, we want some type of Night Journey; pls claim Mecca... or Utah... Fly away on a large bobbing parrot  parrot)
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