Beheading in Woolwich

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Reply #60 - May 23, 2013, 07:32 AM

Not sure it helps to sensationalise the story at this stage and call them 'terrorists'.
Until we know that they are affiliated with any sort of organisation they should be treated as a pair of lunatics that commited a lunatic act.

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Reply #61 - May 23, 2013, 07:33 AM

Fair point.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Reply #62 - May 23, 2013, 07:38 AM

Quote from: z10 on May 23, 2013, 07:32 AM
Not sure it helps to sensationalise the story at this stage and call them 'terrorists'.
Until we know that they are affiliated with any sort of organisation they should be treated as a pair of lunatics that commited a lunatic act.

Even if we know they are affiliated to an organisation, they still remain deeply deranged people.

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Reply #63 - May 23, 2013, 07:39 AM

Quote from: _truth_ on May 23, 2013, 01:08 AM
Couple of weeks ago right after the Boston marathon bombings happened, I said in this forum, that in a way these Muslims deserve the backlash. Why?

Muslims have never as a society learned to adapt in the world and become secularized in their own countries. They let their precious Islam rule over them and blind them to the fact that they let extremists take over their government and pass laws to send them back towards the 5th century. Even when they decide to overthrow these islamofascist they revert back to their old ways because they can't ever go against their precious Islam and its grip on their mind. So instead of letting logic, rationality, secularism and progressivism lift their society up and make it better, they let Islamic rules and laws make their country into a shit hole. So now including myself and my fellow Ex Muslim Atheists and including Muslims themselves have to move to western nations for search of a better life. In the end Muslims have themselves to blame for many of the chaos that is going on in the world regarding Islam, meanwhile the rest of us are caught in the middle of it.

But I was told I was being a bigot and ignorant? But am I? We have been seeing this since 2001 and we Ex Muslims are caught in the middle of it. The jews have managed to secularize their society for the most, the christians have managed to secularize their societies for the most part, but why cant majority the Islamic countries do that? How much more of this nonsense will have to go on before Muslims start to secularize and join the rest of the world in the 21st century? I mean after all its about time already isn't it

Why don't those loser now start tweeting "#pleasedontbemuslim".

No matter how frequent these sad stories are, your point remains and always will be ignorant. No person deserves a backlash from the actions of another person irrespective of the group they belong to.
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Reply #64 - May 23, 2013, 07:42 AM

Well that's exagerrating a bit, but in the case of these two clowns and Muslims in general it's reasonable.

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Reply #65 - May 23, 2013, 07:47 AM

Quote from: z10 on May 23, 2013, 07:32 AM
Not sure it helps to sensationalise the story at this stage and call them 'terrorists'.
Until we know that they are affiliated with any sort of organisation they should be treated as a pair of lunatics that commited a lunatic act.

I just had to close down the paper I was reading online because I was a bit sick of reading "We will not give in to terrorists" and more crap like that being spewed by our PM and other idiots who can't see this attack for what it is. So I couldn't agree more really.

Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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Reply #66 - May 23, 2013, 08:06 AM

I suppose the speech writers thought that "We will not give in to brain-dead tossers!" didn't have quite the same stirring ring to it.

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Reply #67 - May 23, 2013, 08:23 AM

Just wow, fu cking wow! @ this event

To the comments from truth I understand the anger but no innocent person deserves backlash from stuff idiots do.

black and muslim? they just fu cked over the uk somali community thanks a lot arse holes, now I have to keep calling to make sure fam is ok over there.

Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Reply #68 - May 23, 2013, 08:35 AM

I don't think they're Somalis.
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Reply #69 - May 23, 2013, 08:40 AM

Quote from: David on May 23, 2013, 08:35 AM
I don't think they're Somalis.

Not sure the EDL know how to distinguish such a thing...

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Reply #70 - May 23, 2013, 08:46 AM

Lol no they definitely don't, since they keep banging on about Pakistanis.

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Reply #71 - May 23, 2013, 09:04 AM

Quote from: z10 on May 23, 2013, 08:40 AM
Not sure the EDL know how to distinguish such a thing...

By using their eyes? (Admittedly tricky in those brand new polytester balaclavas.)
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Reply #72 - May 23, 2013, 09:06 AM

Quote from: z10 on May 23, 2013, 07:32 AM
Not sure it helps to sensationalise the story at this stage and call them 'terrorists'.
Until we know that they are affiliated with any sort of organisation they should be treated as a pair of lunatics that commited a lunatic act.
Quote from: Naerys on May 23, 2013, 07:38 AM

Even if we know they are affiliated to an organisation, they still remain deeply deranged people.

Sick and sad. This whole thing reminds me more of Charles Manson and The Tate Murders than anything else.
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Reply #73 - May 23, 2013, 09:28 AM

Quote
Paul Berman is from the left politically, but, as with Christopher Hitchens, is appalled at the current attitude of the liberal left to the Iraqi war and the Palestinian situation. He argues that the short 20th century (1914-1989) didn't see the final defeat of the totalitarianisms of left and right, but that these survive in the Middle East, both in the teachings of Islamic fundamentalists and with the secular Baathists. Both of these groups in their different ways incorporated elements of the worst of European totalitarian philosophies. And the left, following the ignoble traditions of many in the thirties (Berman cites the example of the French socialists under Paul Faure), pretend it isn't happening.
One of the most interesting points that Berman raises, for me, is the question of the Palestinian suicide bombers. I find it quite extraordinary that this repellent form of terrorism is so remarkably effective in raising support for the Palestinian cause, and how many on the left think it quite reasonable (well yes, it's a shame about those innocent deaths, but...), and take it as proof that the Palestinians are suffering so appallingly under the Israelis that comparisons are blithely made not just with apartheid South Africa, but even, pace Tom Paulin and others, with Nazi Germany. But this is completely to misunderstand the mentality involved here. These suicide bombers are part of a profound pathology within the Arab world, a chiliastic movement, where death is glory. The same lazy shallow thinking, whereby everyone acts rationally in the light of their perceived interests, had it that the 9/11 bombers were protesting American foreign policy and the plight of the Palestinians. No, no, no. These people were protesting the very existence of liberalism. These people were fanatics.

Read the book. It's well-written, and will make you think.

Terror and Liberalism [Paperback]
Paul Berman
Amazon

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Reply #74 - May 23, 2013, 12:14 PM

Nigerian Michael Adebolajo Named as Suspect in Woolwich Beheading., as Police Raid Saxilby Village in Lincolnshire

Quote
Police have raided an address in Lincolnshire and one in Greenwich, south London, as part of their investigations into the murder of a soldier in Woolwich. Metropolitan Police detectives searched the house in Saxilby in connection with the butchering of the man in broad daylight on a southeast London street. Police are investigating claims that one of the suspects may have links in Lincolnshire. The house is said to belong to the father of named suspect Michael Adebolajo.

A Lincolnshire Police spokesman said: "This is in connection with the ongoing investigation into the murder of a man in Woolwich." Two men have been arrested in connection with the incident which police are treating as a terrorist attack. The men, who are both believed to be British but of Nigerian background, remained at the scene for around 20 minutes until the police arrived.

The men were shot and apprehended by armed officers. The extents of their injuries are not known. Following the killing, a video emerged of Adebolajo holding a meat cleaver in his bloodied hands, telling the person filming :"We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you". Adebolajo added: "The reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers.

"And this British soldier is one. It is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. By Allah, we swear by the almighty Allah we will never stop fighting until you leave us alone "I apologise that women had to witness this today but in our lands women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your governments, they don't care about you."

According to reports, Adebolajo converted to Islam in 2003. Anjem Choudary, a former leader of the banned Islamist group Al Muhajiroun, told the Independent he met the suspect in the video two years ago. He said: "He was just a completely normal guy. He was interested in Islam, in memorising the Koran. He disappeared about two years ago. I don't know what influences he has been under since then."..

THIS BRUTAL ROGUE converted to Islam from Christianity 3 years back and he is already expert in Quran/hadith and the meaning of Jihad ? Sure he was on some cocaine,/ metamphe..and he must have been attending the gatherings of these IDIOTS that are associated with that London baboon of Pakistan Origin . Apparently this brutal rogue Belonged To that Banned Islamist Group Al Muhajiroun of London Baboon . I wish I could kidnap that London Baboon and clean shave the rascal and lock the fool in a room with full of mirrors..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9XiVuKhzyE

Any way what a lady to argue with that piece of meat born in Nigeria..

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Reply #75 - May 23, 2013, 12:16 PM

David Cameron says "there is nothing in Islam to justify this act".

I seem to remember the Quran saying "slaughter the infidels wherever you find them"

Did anybody see the video of the guy with the machete talking? There is an old lady that walks right past him as if nothing has happened, she probably just thought it was kids playing around as usual. If this was in a film then in the background everyone would be running away screaming. Truth is stranger than fiction.
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Reply #76 - May 23, 2013, 12:22 PM

let me put the link on that
Quote from: Tonyt on May 23, 2013, 12:16 PM
David Cameron says "there is nothing in Islam to justify this act".

.......................

David Cameron: Woolwich Soldier Murder was 'Betrayal of Islam'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9BGFbwh-vo

That guy sounds like as if he is lost in a jungle with no where to go and he doesn't know what to say.. he is just mumbling..

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Reply #77 - May 23, 2013, 12:53 PM

Quote from: z10 on May 23, 2013, 07:32 AM
Not sure it helps to sensationalise the story at this stage and call them 'terrorists'.
Until we know that they are affiliated with any sort of organisation they should be treated as a pair of lunatics that commited a lunatic act.

Terrorism is indeed a strong word to use in these instances of individual lunacy.

At the same time, is it right to absolve extremist Islam from all blame, even though it obviously tapped into the existing craziness of these individuals? If we deflect all blame onto the individuals, as opposed to those that helped radicalise them, then surely nothing will be addressed, and we leave ourselves vulnerable to continued repeats of this in the coming years and decades?

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Reply #78 - May 23, 2013, 12:58 PM

http://quran.com/8/12

"strike upon their neck and fingertips"

yeh guys, absolutely NOTHING to do with islam

Thankfully 99.9 percent of muslims are good people who are better human beings then the islamic scriptures. Most muslims are ignorant of the violent instructions in the quran or ignore them, or they make a stupid explanation like the violent parts were for then(i'm yet to see the part of the quran where it says any of it is for a certain time)
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Reply #79 - May 23, 2013, 12:58 PM

Quote from: musivore on May 23, 2013, 12:53 PM
Terrorism is indeed a strong word to use in these instances of individual lunacy.

At the same time, is it right to absolve extremist Islam from all blame, even though it obviously tapped into the existing craziness of these individuals? If we deflect all blame onto the individuals, as opposed to those that helped radicalise them, then surely nothing will be addressed, and we leave ourselves vulnerable to continued repeats of this in the coming years and decades?

A few days ago a person was convicted in the UK for killing 4 servicemen and their horses during the IRA bombings. He was irish catholic. Was he radicalised? Do we bring his religion into what was a politically motivated act of violence?
Interestingly, the entire problem with the IRA disappeared when the British troops left Ireland. Funny how that works.

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Reply #80 - May 23, 2013, 01:08 PM

True. But if we'd had hardline Catholic clergy at the time spouting rhetoric that encouraged and justified the acts of violence, we'd have been similarly naive not to address these clerics and to try to dampen their influence.

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Reply #81 - May 23, 2013, 01:16 PM

I think religion adds that mindless, righteous zeal and delusions of invincibility. It replaces the conscience with dogma.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Reply #82 - May 23, 2013, 01:18 PM

Quote from: z10 on May 23, 2013, 12:58 PM
A few days ago a person was convicted in the UK for killing 4 servicemen and their horses during the IRA bombings. He was irish catholic. Was he radicalised? Do we bring his religion into what was a politically motivated act of violence?
Interestingly, the entire problem with the IRA disappeared when the British troops left Ireland. Funny how that works.

Its possible to make a critique of British foreign policy and still focus on how a British Nigerian convert decides to commit violence whilst citing Jihadi dogma. Most Muslims who disagree with X or Y policy don't ever contemplate such action.

It also feeds into wider streams of a very real and identifiable purifying jihadi takfiri ideology that is being disseminated and doesn't just make foreign policy its generating target.

Its not a zero sum game.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Reply #83 - May 23, 2013, 01:19 PM

Quote from: Tonyt on May 23, 2013, 12:16 PM
David Cameron says "there is nothing in Islam to justify this act".

Gee, now David Cameron fells like he's an imam, or some sort of Islamic scholar. Why don't he stop telling other people what one religion which he doesn't even believe in is supposed to “really says”. I ain't Muslim and I won't turn on him to learn what Islam justifies, and if I was Muslim I wouldn't turn on him either. I really, really fail to see who could possibly turn on him to learn that.

I can't understand the slightest what those murderers had in mind. They seemed to live in some make-believe world where it's the Muslims against the rest of the world. So, killing non-Muslim, going to great length to described how you hate them and will always fight them can only turn them to mortal enemies that will want to kill every possible Muslim (to protect themselves, since Muslim will always fight them ). Did this guy thought it was a good idea to persuade non-Muslims go kill every Muslim in the UK just to make sure there are no bombing ?
Of course I'm approving any “revenge” on innocent Muslims, but I mean, even when putting oneself into those madmen super-confrontational mindset, their act still don't make any sense except if they want their fellow Muslim to die. Or maybe they are loonies enough to think Allah will allow the British Muslims to overcome the British Infidels when the big war breaks in ?
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Reply #84 - May 23, 2013, 01:30 PM

Dangerous times, dangerous times. The vast majority of Muslims are in the 'Moderate/Mainstream Islam' category. Unfortunately there is a small, 'cancerous' element which then decides to move to 'Islamist/Islamisation' category. From there, an even smaller group goes onto 'Ultra-Conservative/Salafist/Wahhabism' category. It's like a drug, these ever smaller groups need more and more. After that comes the unfortunate 'Jihadi/Terrorist' category but the link between the 'Ultra-Conservative/Salafist/Wahhabism' and the 'Jihadi/Terrorist' is radicalisation which is something which politics, society and academia have not found a credible way to deal with locally, nationally or internationally and this is why things remain difficult to deal with.

I feel that the EDL/BNP muppets will try and cause more frustrations by releasing their own frustrations in all kinds of stupid ways. Tensions, animosity and suspicion will increase and we'll all be worse off because of it.

All-in-all I am not justifying these attacks nor any counter-attacks but there are valid issues behind both of them just poor ways of expressing them and dealing with these expressions and persons/groups. Muslim communities (there is no one Muslim community, wish non-Muslims would realize that!) need to have better ways of identifying, segmenting and then targeting these groups. There is a failure within the communities and organisations. The guy on BBC News from the Muslim Public Affairs Committee (although by no means great) has a good grasp of some of the stuff going on. I can't post the link but its on the news 'Video and Audio' section.
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Reply #85 - May 23, 2013, 01:50 PM

I'm glad you decided to join in Breakerofsilence. You are well informed and seem to have lots to say

Keep posting and you'll soon be trusted enough with dangerous and exciting things, like links and images

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Reply #86 - May 23, 2013, 02:02 PM

Whoops I could see how that picture I posted could taken out of context. I was simply saying everyone has their head in the sand. Not any particular group just everyone. Damnit why is everything I post -__- mis-understood.

Honestly I don't agree with them calling it a terrorist attack. I really just thought when I heard this story that it was some crazy person and I ignored it at first, because crazy shit like that could happen occasionally on the news . Then it caught my interest when it started being headline as a terrorist attack once the motives, victim and attacker's background was announced. Do you think the government is going to take steps in a reaction to this event? Or is it just going to blow over and business as usual?

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Reply #87 - May 23, 2013, 02:03 PM

lol musivore why do your posts always make me smile? XD
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Reply #88 - May 23, 2013, 02:26 PM

Thanks for saying that Jila

What's worrying is that I've been trying to be deadly serious recently. Must redouble my efforts from now onwards

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Reply #89 - May 23, 2013, 02:32 PM

Quote from: BreakerofVows on May 23, 2013, 01:30 PM
The vast majority of Muslims are in the 'Moderate/Mainstream Islam' category. Unfortunately there is a small, 'cancerous' element which then decides to move to 'Islamist/Islamisation' category. From there, an even smaller group goes onto 'Ultra-Conservative/Salafist/Wahhabism' category.

On which level are you speaking ? International ? England ?
I'd say on a international level it's more relevant to consider regional brand of Islam than to split into “more or less extremists” groups. I mean, the “more or less extremist” nuances will still be present in each of those regional brands, but people won't emphasize on the same parts of the doctrine, and the “lowest” level of extremism will vary a lot between countries.
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