Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.

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Reply #90 - September 01, 2013, 02:12 AM

Quote from: Seeker on September 01, 2013, 01:40 AM
let's have a virtual non-alcoholic drink

For a real good time, guaranteed.
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Reply #91 - September 01, 2013, 05:34 AM

Quote from: Seeker on September 01, 2013, 01:40 AM
On another thread, i stated that I believe that morality comes from within, so we're not far apart. Where we differ is your rejection of religion and any role it might have in regulating social and moral conduct.

This was essentially the elitist position of philosophers like Ibn Rushd. Religion is necessary to regulate the desires of the masses — the aristocracy can do and believe (in essence) what they like. In fact some philosophers (might have been Ibn Sina) actually, considered al-falsaffa to be a higher truth than religion. The Platonic ideal of the philosopher king, and all that.

Quote from: Seeker on September 01, 2013, 01:40 AM
Also I've stated on numerous occasions that I have respect for all human beings regardless of their belief-systems or lack of belief-systems.

Relax, and let's have a virtual non-alcoholic drink to break the ice and minimize any tension arising from misunderstanding.

I'm relaxed all right but you seem to skillfully evade my questions. Is this all that the islam of the non-intellectual can manage?
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Reply #92 - September 01, 2013, 08:22 AM

I understood what you meant by a joke, I just don't share your view. There is no god so all of existence is a joke. I don't see it that way.

The question whether or not you'd kill yourself is actually worth asking. If you come to accept allah does not exist will the effect be so horrible you end your life? If you continue to live then you need to find your own meaning and purpose for life. I understand how it may have come across to you but it does make a good point.

My purpose, my morality, my ideology are what I decide them to be. It's the same everywhere. In many parts of Africa, the Amazon, there are people that walk around naked and it's just normal. In other parts of the world members of a different faith will be hunted down, attacked, kidnapped, beaten or murdered to the cheering of a crowd. that is their morality. It's very different from mine.

Being a chromosomes removed from barking or braying or ape-ing isn't something that fills me with dread or revulsion. Quite the opposite. If allah is real then we are meaningless. Our lives have no worth, our triumph, our tragedy, mean nothing. Whatever higher spirituality we have is pointless because we were created solely to worship. We aren't special, we aren't worth anything, we exist to feed ego. No more, no less. All of human advancement, all of life itself, is meaningless.

As to an afterlife, that's a different subject. There could be a god and no afterlife. There could be an afterlife and no god. It's far more likely that there is a god and no afterlife. A god is simply a creator. If there's a god that created everything then that god also created us to not be immortal. Life without death is cancer.

I accept the fact I'll never see my deceased loved ones again. That's why I grieved for them. That's why I shed tears. They are dead. I am alive. One day I will also die. I made my peace with my mortality while I was still a teenager.

Morality isn't just a human construct to shame us. Back in June there was a naked bike ride around London, not the first and not the last. I don't see how the fact they were naked makes them villains. In summers past I've stripped naked and swam in rivers and lakes. I have no shame in my nudity. There are places in the world that if I were born there the 24/7 clothing in public would be very strange to me. I think being ashamed of the human body, teaching it's something offensive is immortal. Likewise your comment about having sex. What exactly is the big deal? Why do you insist that doing thing that harm no one is wrong? What exactly is your logic in being against something completely reasonable?

As for your bacteria, fungi, flora, fauna. No more, no less comment, I just don't get that. I'm a human being. I'm connected to every living thing on the planet, all the way back to the first replicating cell. I share DNA with goliaths and insects. I'm not removed from nature, I'm a part of it. Every living creature is my relative. It fills me with awe.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #93 - September 01, 2013, 01:49 PM

Seeker, I really don't understand how you think that your exaggerated, hyperbolic examples of moral infringement prove, or even suggest, that there is a god. They suggest the opposite. The fact that people of different belief systems generally, but not always, agree on what is right and what is wrong prove that there is no god necessary to reach those conclusions. In America, I am no more likely to see a Hindu couple boning on the floors of Walmart than I am to see an atheist professor giving it to his mistress in the toy aisle. As a society, we've pretty much agreed that would not be cool. We don't need a god for that.
Transversely, when Islam first arrived in the islands of the Indian ocean, Arab proselytizers had a hard time getting the natives to adopt practices like hijab. It is documented that the women were used to being topless and Islamic judges were run away by natives for asking them to cover.
They didn't consider it immoral.
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Reply #94 - September 01, 2013, 02:08 PM

Which just goes to show morality is in the eye of the beholder. There are certain things that are fundamentally human. Morality is one of them. I'm perfectly happy to say I come from bacteria or some such in the big picture of things, just like I'm happy to admit that if you trace my bloodline back far enough you'll find an early modern human descended from Africa. Biologically I am an evolved African ape. That's what human are, It doesn't mean I'm going to act like a gorilla, because I'm not a gorilla. I'm a human. Every living thing on this planet comes from the same point of origin, the first replicating cell. And each species evolved differently. Your questions completely miss the point that we are a distinct species. Just as I wouldn't expect an alligator to try and live as if it were a parrot, or a shark to live as if it were an eagle, or a fly to live as if it were a giraffe, or a spider to live as if it were a swan, or a zebra to live as if it were a tyrannosaurus. It's ridiculous. I'm a human being. I will live and act as a human being.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #95 - September 05, 2013, 12:13 AM

Quote from: Seeker on September 01, 2013, 12:13 AM
So since you are a primate mammal and since morality is a man-made social construct, you wouldn't mind, if you had the urge, to copulate in full view of the public with your wife while shopping at your local Tesco, amirite?

First, you can't because I don't have a wife.
Second, why on earth do you have such contempt for man-made social construct ? I love many man-made constructs. I certainly don't want to destroy every man-made construct I stumble upon. I don't get why you do. I'm pretty sure your language is a man-made social construct too. Does that mean you want to speak in gibberish now ?
Man-made social constructs are very useful tools that allow us to live together without falling to complete chaos, and we should just realize what role they serves, why they were created, question if they are efficient and good, and try to improve them when possible. Not just destroy them for no good reason like idiots just because we can.

Also note that animals also usually have their own norms and rules that say when and how they have coitus, so we're not even special in that regard .
Quote from: Seeker on September 01, 2013, 12:13 AM
like a female dog in heat, your fellow primate mammals

That's just… just so wrong, man. Seriously. Dead wrong.
Use bonobos, next time.
Quote from: Seeker on September 01, 2013, 12:13 AM
but can you understand why the general public has a very dim and negative view of atheists?

I'm pretty sure they don't where I live. Actually, where I live, the general public as a much much dimmer and more negative view of Muslims than of Atheists. Can you understand why ?
Quote from: Seeker on September 01, 2013, 12:13 AM
I mean, since you believe there is no difference between you and animals mating in the mud......

Why would animals want to mate specifically in the mud ? I don't think they do, I'm pretty sure most of them don't, and I thought your main issue was with mating in public. Anyway a big difference between me and animals mating in the mud would be that I don't go in the mud if I can avoid it. And also that I don't mate, but that's another completely irrelevant topic. I think you really, seriously should stop being all that emotional, go beyond that stupid epidermic reaction of yours, and really think through what you are disturbed about, and why you are disturbed about it, with mating. As rationally as possible. Then, when you know precisely what you are that disturbed about, you should question if this is something you rationally want to be disturbed about, or just some artifact of your education that serves no actual purpose.
And then enlighten us with this new-found knowledge of yours. I'm pretty confident we can locate the real issue at work here, and maybe even compare the different strategies put by different societies to deal with them, and compare their effectiveness, etc.

I already told you : Reality doesn't care about you. So you'd better start taking care yourself, instead of keeping delusions of some fatherly figure doing it for you. You seem deadly scared of that notion, though. I mean, you explicitly stated this fear as your reason for believing in God ! Either stop being scared, or be brave enough to face a truth you find scary. Grow a spine !
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Reply #96 - September 05, 2013, 03:30 PM

Quote from: Seeker on August 26, 2013, 10:06 AM
happymurtad,

There is a inherent, deep-rooted, instinctive, perhaps even biological, hunger for a God in all humans. That's how different religions came about. Each claiming to have the "one and only truth".

You can't close your eyes, stick fingers in your ears, and simply deny that fact.

I promise you this: if a close family member is on the verge of death, and you are powerless to help or save them, you, happymurtad the proudly cerebral atheist, will get your knees and beg God for help.

There's a reason why the statement :"there are no atheists in foxhole" has an equivalent in almost every language.

We hunger for God, even when He does not (immediately) answer.
We hunger for God, even when we do not understand Him and His judgements.

I love how people use this argument over and over again, without actually realizing that it supports the very point us unbelievers make : You only call on the supernatural when
your mind is not rationally stable.
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Reply #97 - September 05, 2013, 03:53 PM

Quote from: Seeker on August 31, 2013, 10:21 AM
" But for me personally, I cannot accept it......even if it is true.

This is your problem.
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Reply #98 - September 05, 2013, 05:15 PM

I personally know some atheists, who are among the kindest people. I know also some very religious people (including Muslims) who are very dishonest, cruel and perverts.

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Reply #99 - September 08, 2013, 03:09 AM

"really think through what you are disturbed about, and why you are disturbed about it, with mating. As rationally as possible. Then, when you know precisely what you are that disturbed about, you should question if this is something you rationally want to be disturbed about, or just some artifact of your education that serves no actual purpose.
And then enlighten us with this new-found knowledge of yours. I'm pretty confident we can locate the real issue at work here, and maybe even compare the different strategies put by different societies to deal with them, and compare their effectiveness, etc.

I already told you : Reality doesn't care about you. So you'd better start taking care yourself, instead of keeping delusions of some fatherly figure doing it for you. You seem deadly scared of that notion, though. I mean, you explicitly stated this fear as your reason for believing in God ! Either stop being scared, or be brave enough to face a truth you find scary. Grow a spine !"

Thanks, dude. The patronizing tone notwithstanding, that was some raw truth right there. Why exactly does it bother me if two men or two woman want to love each other? Or hump each other? Because i find it immoral and unnatural? Ok, but they don't. They think it's perfectly ok to take it up the tailpipe even if that leads to a prolapse, polyps, warts, and early-onset of incontinence. It's their body, their business. Or is it? What about family values and the sanctity of the family unit? Well, why, then, are many family values advocate caught having a affair or frequenting prostitues?

So again, why am I bothered? At a time when the muslim world is facing mass poverty, starvation, religious-based violence......why on God's green earth am I and my fellow believers fixated on sexuality and matters of the flesh?

I have a few answers in mind, but I would be better served with more thinking and rumination on this painful dichotomy

But yeah, should you ever want to fornicate in the dairy aisle at Walmart or maybe the sporting equipment section, I'll do my best not to judge you. I'll be shocked and disgusted, but I'll do my best to remind myself: He's only human. And he's acting on the most basic, most fundamental human urges: the urge to get jiggy. After all, if I was a godless primate mammal who was the product of billions of years of evolution, I too would probably be shagging Belinda in the dairy aisle at Tesco. Why? Because it feels good, spur of the moment, spice of spontaneity.
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Reply #100 - September 08, 2013, 03:16 AM

Quote from: kutta on September 05, 2013, 03:53 PM
This is your problem.

That I know. You are asking me to accept the notion that after we die, we turn to bone and dust and our consciousness ends there.

I find that very hard to accept. I cannot accept it, for if I do, the foundations that support my whole mental, spiritual and emotional outlook will collapse. I cannot afford a collapse, at this juncture in my life.

There is a reason why the vast majority of humans on this earth believe in a Supreme God and a HereAfter. Because without Him, and His Grace, we are too weak and too puny.

I bow down before His Might and His Majesty and ask him for His Guidance and His Mercy during this tumultuous and bewildering period in my life.
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Reply #101 - September 08, 2013, 03:31 AM

"I accept the fact I'll never see my deceased loved ones again. That's why I grieved for them. That's why I shed tears. They are dead. I am alive. One day I will also die. I made my peace with my mortality while I was still a teenager."

A few questions, mate:

- After you die, what then? Are you absolutely positive of the finality of it all?

- Why is it that only humans have evolved to have a "higher order" brain? How come chimpanzees and dolphins and cheetahs didn't also evolve to wear clothes and cook their food? Is there room in your atheist brain to concede that maybe, just maybe, evolution is the intelligent design of a God(lets keep it generic)?

- So let me ask you: if there is no God and no hereafter, have you ever thought of the futility of starting a family and raising children? A family that you will never be reunited with after death? I've heard of atheists who refuse to start a family for this reason........have you considered it?
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Reply #102 - September 08, 2013, 03:34 AM

"I'm relaxed all right but you seem to skillfully evade my questions."

I've answered all of your questions, but if you still have some more, do ask, and I'll answer.
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Reply #103 - September 08, 2013, 04:15 AM

Quote from: Seeker on September 08, 2013, 03:31 AM
"I accept the fact I'll never see my deceased loved ones again. That's why I grieved for them. That's why I shed tears. They are dead. I am alive. One day I will also die. I made my peace with my mortality while I was still a teenager."

A few questions, mate:

- After you die, what then? Are you absolutely positive of the finality of it all?

- Why is it that only humans have evolved to have a "higher order" brain? How come chimpanzees and dolphins and cheetahs didn't also evolve to wear clothes and cook their food? Is there room in your atheist brain to concede that maybe, just maybe, evolution is the intelligent design of a God(lets keep it generic)?

- So let me ask you: if there is no God and no hereafter, have you ever thought of the futility of starting a family and raising children? A family that you will never be reunited with after death? I've heard of atheists who refuse to start a family for this reason........have you considered it?

Yes, I am positive of the finality of it all. I suppose in a way you could call me agnostic because I'm open to the possibility of a god but just not convinced of it, but I'd refer to myself as atheist precisely because I'm not convinced of it. I've said before, perhaps on this forum, you could convince me to adopt a deist outlook but it would have to be a very broad kind of deism. When I look at the gods described in the holy books/scripture I see so many errors, so many things that have been proven false, I just can't see them existing. There is not a single religion I believe is true. Which isn't to say I can say flat out there is no god or gods, but if there is one it's not to be found in the religions of this world.

In all honestly we never did evolve to wear clothes. We evolved in the very hot climate of Africa, and if you go to parts of Africa and other places on the planet with a good portion of heat people don't wear clothes. Also, saying we evolved to wear clothes itself is just ridiculous.

There's plenty of room in my mind to accept intelligent design, just as I said I'm not convinced by it. When I was in school, I remember learning about biology, evolution, physics, and the more I learned about science the more likely it seemed there was a god. Learning about evolution in particular really made me think about a sort of guiding hand, if I can use the phrase. All the things we could of become, and we became a species of consciousness and imagination really stood out to me. But because I don't know I don't say "I don't know the answer therefore god did it" I just say I don't know and am excited to find out. And the more I learned the less likely it seemed to me. Some people learn what I learn and go the opposite way. And that's fine, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Every human being will believe or disbelieve as they see fit. I don't know why we're self aware. I know we're not the only creatures to be like this, but I do not no how consciousness came to be. I don't know how life first started. I know what happened once there was life, but the start of life itself? I don't know.

I'm not sure what you mean by the futility of starting a family and raising children. I'm assuming you don't think we love each other any less. Why is family useless? I've never said that. Why would an afterlife or no afterlife have any effect whatsoever on my family or any children I may one day have?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #104 - September 08, 2013, 04:39 AM

My offer to Skype is still on if you fancy? An actual conversation may give more insight than a few posts here.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #105 - September 08, 2013, 04:50 AM

Also, the none religious are now apparently the third largest group worldwide religiously. Christians are the biggest, muslims second, then none religious third, then hindus fourth at a billion. So out of 7 billion people, more than a billion are none religious and that number is growing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2250096/You-wouldnt-believe-atheism-worlds-biggest-faith-Christianity-Islam.html

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-12-19/national/35929111_1_pew-forum-new-report-atheists-and-agnostics

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/10/09/new-report-a-third-of-adults-under-30-have-no-religious-affiliation/

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #106 - September 08, 2013, 10:42 AM

Quote from: Seeker on September 08, 2013, 03:34 AM
I've answered all of your questions, but if you still have some more, do ask, and I'll answer.

Hm. Let's have a look.

Quote from: schizo on September 01, 2013, 05:34 AM
This was essentially the elitist position of philosophers like Ibn Rushd. Religion is necessary to regulate the desires of the masses — the aristocracy can do and believe (in essence) what they like. In fact some philosophers (might have been Ibn Sina) actually, considered al-falsaffa to be a higher truth than religion. The Platonic ideal of the philosopher king, and all that.

No response.

Quote from: schizo on August 31, 2013, 02:42 PM
Hmm. Your problems aren't limited to reading and comprehension, are they?

Whether God exists or does not exist changes nothing insofar as morality is concerned. A hereafter does, but only in as much as God himself is an indeterminate.

No response.
More to follow below.
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Reply #107 - September 08, 2013, 10:45 AM

Quote from: schizo on August 26, 2013, 12:12 PM
And equating mental turmoil with allah is just farcical. I could do the same with Jesus, or Brahman, or Tengri. The desire for a supernatural force during periods of great distress is supra-historical, yes, but that does not validate the existence of said supernatural force ipso facto.

By all means adopt a posission of ontological deism but you're intelligent enough to see that anthropomorphic Allah is an incoherent and inconsistent construction. Don't disappoint me, old chap.

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Reply #108 - September 08, 2013, 10:47 AM

Quote from: schizo on August 31, 2013, 12:35 PM
No, because a 'lie' presupposes a meaning of sorts. Life is meaningless. Both your average atheist and a sufi influenced by Ibn Arabi and Yunus Emre would concur with this assessment.
No, suffering is something that must be affirmed. You're suspiciously starting to sound like a Christian . But if necessary, I seek comfort in my fellow man or mankind as a supra-historical entity.
Ontologically perhaps. But as soon as you start conflating a transcendent being with space and time (which islam must do to survive) you conceive of more questions than you answer.
51:56 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.

Couple this verse with qadr and life is still a fucking joke. Hence the Jabariyah secht.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_in_Islam

The Jabariyah view is the only coherent one, even if we account for quantum indeterminacies. The orthodox sunni view/Asharite theological position (codified by Al-Ghazzali) is untenable whichever way you look at it. I'm not even going to go into the herecies of the qadariyah.

Hello? Where art thou? Am I talking to a wall?
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Reply #109 - September 08, 2013, 11:18 AM

Quote from: schizo on August 13, 2013, 02:50 AM
Whilst I take issue with muslims and ex-muslims alike! restricting their history to Bukhari and Muslim I object to your assertion that hadith can/should only be varified with recourse to fitra (something non-corporeal). Intellectual dishonesty here, not to mention the subjectivity of the term 'fitra.' You're going to have to do better here, buddy.

Also, pls reply to my proposition that morality does not exist (even if one is a muslim) in the rants thread. Thanks mate.

Quote from: schizo on August 13, 2013, 02:02 AM
No, actually.

Quote
Let me outline the Euthyphro dilemma with recourse to two propositions:
a) something is pious because the God's love it.
B) Something is loved by the Gods, because it is pious.

X is true if and only if G exists, where G is God and X is either (A) or (B).

G = X (a) which entails amorality. Not immorality but amorality, as moral standards are determined by God with no intrinsic worth unto themselves. This would be acceptable if we reduce God to a being of no intellect, yet this is patently not the case within islamic discourse. All things considered, given that God is omniscient, omnipotent and exceptionally intelligent (not rational) we must capitulate to the hypothesis that if X is (a) morality cannot be said to exist as a paradigm of any worth. Certainly God can wax poetical about good and evil, but seen as existence is entirely causally determined, then these ideas become utterly absurd — in fact existence is intrinsically absurd.

If X =(b) we encounter what I would call reified shirk. Reification is the process of considering an abstract concept to be real. AFAIK, no islamic theologian has delt with this modernist/frankfurt school critique of popular culture. Reification may serve to indict in the empirical world, but I don't think the delineation between abstract and real is that clear cut in Islam. Anyway, if (B) is X then muslims are committing a form of shirk as they are ascribing partners (moral values) with God, inasmuch as moral values are independent of God, hence G loves X because it is inherently good.

This is either a simplistic and cunning argument against morality insofar as it can be said to exist in islam, or, it is an incredibly risible conclusion. Thoughts?

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=24387.0

Forget the quran, forget the tafsir, forget the hadith. If morality and free will are nonsensical constructs then islam is clearly ridiculous.

Quote from: schizo on August 07, 2013, 07:41 AM
If events are independent of God, manifest shirk is the only position that can conceivably be adopted. A fire is not extinguished by water because the oxygen molecules are displaced, thereby circumventing the burning process, but, because God has created the occasion. Ergo, the occasion is within the juristiction of Allah, not science (as all things in the world are). To deny this means that you may have to postulate a God in time, which is a very, very precarious position to adopt.
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Reply #110 - September 08, 2013, 03:50 PM

Quote
Why is it that only humans have evolved to have a "higher order" brain? How come chimpanzees and dolphins and cheetahs didn't also evolve to wear clothes and cook their food?

Survival, my friend. Think survival. The ability to make clothing allowed us to survive outside of our original habitat.

Similarly, the ability to cook our food allowed us to digest and gain nourishment from animals that we hadn't immediately killed and that might have been teeming with bacteria.

The ability to learn, master, and pass on those skills is also directly related to our survival.
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Reply #111 - September 08, 2013, 04:24 PM

One more thing, seeker. You seem to think that just because we share a common ancestor with other primates, we are bound to act like other primates. This simply is not the case. We will behave like humans because we are humans. Our behavioral norms work for us. Even amongst our primate relatives, there is a great degree of variance in behavior from species to species. A chimpanzee does not behave like a gorilla and a gorilla does not behave like an orangutan. Each has its own patterns of behavior, social structure, mating habits, etc that are conducive to survival in their respective environments.

You call your self seeker, you should really do research into those topics. Both the similarities and the differences we have with our primate relatives are fascinating. That does not make us any less human. We are what we are and we do what we do.
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Reply #112 - September 08, 2013, 05:29 PM

Pretty much what I said.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #113 - September 08, 2013, 07:29 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9cWkUhZ8n4

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #114 - September 09, 2013, 02:09 AM

Quote from: Seeker on September 08, 2013, 03:16 AM
That I know. You are asking me to accept the notion that after we die, we turn to bone and dust and our consciousness ends there.

I find that very hard to accept. I cannot accept it, for if I do, the foundations that support my whole mental, spiritual and emotional outlook will collapse. I cannot afford a collapse, at this juncture in my life.

There is a reason why the vast majority of humans on this earth believe in a Supreme God and a HereAfter. Because without Him, and His Grace, we are too weak and too puny.

I bow down before His Might and His Majesty and ask him for His Guidance and His Mercy during this tumultuous and bewildering period in my life.

But don't you see? The beauty of truth is in its independence. Independent from what you desire.
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Re: Hi, I'm new and I'm lost.
Reply #115 - September 11, 2013, 12:14 AM

Quote from: Seeker on September 08, 2013, 03:09 AM
Why exactly does it bother me if two men or two woman want to love each other?

So that's yet another one of your issues with mating. You pick up a new one every time ! Mating itself seems to have traumatized you, really…
Quote from: Seeker on September 08, 2013, 03:09 AM
But yeah, should you ever want to fornicate in the dairy aisle at Walmart or maybe the sporting equipment section, I'll do my best not to judge you.

Good news for you, it's not going to happen anytime soon. Even though I'm pretty sure most Muslim men of my age have already fucked, and way more than once .
Have you heard about the straight edge movement ? I think you should definitely look at the views of atheist straight-edge people about sexuality, I hope it would give you more fuel for thought.
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Reply #116 - September 21, 2013, 06:25 PM

Quote from: schizo on September 08, 2013, 10:47 AM
Hello? Where art thou? Am I talking to a wall?

Schizo, I thought I answered all of your questions through my responses to others, but I must have overlooked a few. Anyway, some of the topics you bring up, while very interesting, are overly broad and require another thread to give it due justice. But I'm on restricted status which means I can't participate, so that, as they say, is that. Maybe you can lean on one of the mods and get me off this forsaken island of Elba?
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Reply #117 - September 21, 2013, 06:39 PM

Quote from: Seeker on September 21, 2013, 06:25 PM
Schizo, I thought I answered all of your questions through my responses to others, but I must have overlooked a few. Anyway, some of the topics you bring up, while very interesting, are overly broad and require another thread to give it due justice. But I'm on restricted status which means I can't participate, so that, as they say, is that. Maybe you can lean on one of the mods and get me off this forsaken island of Elba?

Check your PM's. Looking forward to a purely technical (not moral — because I'm not a moralist) theological discussion.
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Reply #118 - September 21, 2013, 07:20 PM

Let's get Seeker off restricted, he's been on long enough.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #119 - September 21, 2013, 07:28 PM

A few days ago, I was having an altogether bad day. My car broke down, trouble at work, trouble at home. Just your average not good, very bad day.

I was walking home when the skies opened up. Great, just great. Still have a good half a mile to go and I'll be soaked along with all of my important documents. Would've called a cab but my cell phone was out of juice. I sought refuge from the rain at a nearby construction site. Knowing the showers in my area, once it starts it tends to go on for hours. I had two choices: walk and get soaked the bone. or stay put for hours. Neither option was desirable.

I was totally disheartened, totally worn, totally spent. Then, a idea popped into my head. What if I prayed for God to stop the rain so that I can get home after this long rough day? For the record, at this point, while still nominally a Muslim, I was entertaining atheist thoughts for most of the past few weeks, was spending most of my free time laughing at ridiculous 'muslamic' beliefs and practices like the saudi fool who was counting how many 'hand-maidens' each muslim would get in Jannah, and I haven't prayed for months(years, if it means regular prayers), and was just very disillusioned with religion(all religion) in general.

Still, at this moment of need, whilst defeated and depressed and sad and miserable, I got into the ruko3 prayer position and prayed. "Please, Lord. I need to get home. Please, Lord. Find me a way. Please, Lord, stop this rain"

Then, I blurted out, almost instinctively, "Please, Lord, give me a sign". What did I mean by that? I don't know. But I was just sick and tired of this meandering meaningless neigh-atheistic non-living. I guess I was hoping for some dramatic "sign from the heavens" that God exists. It was a plea. A prayer. Give me a sign. Show me you are there. That you are listening to me.

I was hoping that when I lifted my head from ruko3, the rain would stop.

I lifted my head up, stood up, but no, the rain didn't stop. Just kept on raining. And I became even more depressed.

A few minutes after that, while stuck inside the construction, I see a dude walking by with a huge umbrella. Aha! Even though I'm a very proud(not in the arrogant sense, but in the not-asking-for-help sense) person, I hailed him: "Yo, buddy"

He stopped. I said, " Are you going that-a-way(where I lived)? I was hoping I could walk with you." (the umbrella was huge, easily fit 2 people).

He said: "No, I'm going that-a-way(another direction)

My heart fell like a plunging elevator. Damn, I'm stuck. The no good, very bad bad day continues.

Then, he says: "I'll sell it to you for 5 dollars"

Great! I look at my cash and I have a 10 dollar bill. I give it to him and say keep the change. He thanks me profusely. Turns out, he's a transient worker(odd jobs), he's been out working all day and wasn't able to find any work which means he won't have enough for the bunk bed he rents by the night. Cost of bunk bed? $9/night. I gave him $10.

I offer to walk him to his destination with recently acquired umbrella, but he refuses. I insist, he refuses again, says he'll dry off when he arrives. I start walking under the protection of the umbrella. Not a drop of water comes through. For the first time in a long time, I'm happy, like, natural-happy. Not alcohol-induced happy. Not just-fapped-to-porn happy, not party till the sun comes out happy. No, it was a happiness that can only be described as organic and inward springing.

Ladies and gents, there was my sign. Delivered to me by a hard-working workman who didn't know how he was going to come up with the 9 dollars for rent until he was guided my way. Guided? By what force? Those of you who are adamant atheists will scoff and chalk it up to coincidence. You know, the same coincidence that caused the Big Bang

I got home. The first thing I did was make wudu(ablution done before prayer) and pray Salatul Isha and Maghrib. Then I thanked God. Then I cried. Then I asked for His help. Then I deleted my multi-gigabyte porn collection. Some of the most clips to be found on the interwebz, guaranteed for a most-excellent fap. But I deleted them, without hesitation. Not out of any puritanical impluse or even moralizing, but out of a desire for a new life and a new leaf.

The not-good, very bad day had a happy ending. A long-lost Muslim just rediscovered his faith and the power of prayer.

I was home. I am home.

I wish each and every one of you the same happiness and tranquility in whatever way of life and whatever belief-system you choose. But please be humble and beware of the pitfalls of falling in love with your own intellect: herp derp burp
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