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Theme Changer

 Topic: Rape: It is your fault!

 (Read 28412 times)
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  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #30 - June 19, 2014, 03:15 AM

    question to men: when someone tells you it's part of your nature to rape, how does that make you feel?

    Doesn't bother me. I'm human and male, so arguably it is "in my nature" to do everything that male humans do, given the same genes, upbringing, beliefs, circumstances, etc. Humans are programmable. That includes all sorts of nasty shit. So, if you want an honest answer, someone saying that makes me think there is probably an element of truth in it.

    That doesn't mean nasty shit is justifiable. The element of conscious choice overrides that.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #31 - June 19, 2014, 03:18 AM

    Even if we were to accept that some fundamental part of us has this basic, instinctive desire to rape, I'm pretty sure we're also naturally programmed to have the conditional desires to fight, kill, et cetera. Trying to make a correlation in the modern age to a woman wearing revealing clothing and a man acting on this "rape instinct" you believe they have is like trying to police how annoying/infuriating a person can be before it was totally expected that he's going to be murdered because of our instinct to kill. It's just not how it works, and it's a ridiculous thing to say.

    I'd also get into why the idea that some women's behavior or appearance can be innately rape-provoking is total bullshit, but it looks like everyone's got that well under control here.

    This is a mentality that I find often from people with an islamic background. Gender and sexuality come before empathy and individuality. Basically, you're male/female first, human second, rather than human first male/female second.


    In my experience, you're completely right. The most subtle signs of some sort of sexism or misogyny in the early stages of getting to know someone are often remarks about disliking certain kinds of traits in a woman. He might say he hates loud women, obnoxious women, bossy women, women who go to parties, et cetera, instead of saying he doesn't like loud, bossy, obnoxious people or isn't that into partying. That's a common first red flag for me. That distinction that he might make, usually casually and unnoticed by him when he's saying it, that shows you that he has a unique standard and expectation for women that might be stricter than his expectations for men. You're a woman first, and your worth is judged after you've been run through that initial filter.

    Of course, some are going to take you by surprise, some are going to be outliers, but they are so few and far between. I've almost exclusively had male friends and companions, and I have found almost all of them to be honest, decent, trustworthy people, and most who, like Quod, would be offended or repulsed by the suggestion that they have some underlying inclination to rape.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #32 - June 19, 2014, 03:22 AM

    jesus fucking christ no that is not what i am saying.

    I am saying, it is pretty fucking stupid of women to just roam about in their short clothes in every corner of the world and NOT expect to have some guy wanting to rape her. i am not excusing the rapist. i am not blaming the rapee. i am just saying, are we so fucking blind to human nature that it baffles us when a male decides to impose his will on a woman who is already roaming around in short clothes.

    does this mean that if a woman was roaming around in a full abayya and niqab to not get raped? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

    I know what you are saying. It's still a dumb thing to say, because the attitudes you are supposedly deploring are supported by what you are saying, whether you intend to support said attitudes or not. The only way to change said attitudes is to make it clear they are unacceptable. If the current situation is bad, you should want to change it.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #33 - June 19, 2014, 03:31 AM

    In my experience, you're completely right.

    Gender segregation just allows this sort of shit to flourish. It really does. It's much harder to have this sort of attitude if you grow up around both sexes all your life and develop deep relationships/friendships from birth/early childhood and as an adult either friends or lovers or both. It's a fundamental difference between islamic thinking and western thinking. Western culture is mixed. In the mind of most westerners, you're human first. In islam, you're human second. If this were to change, the rape culture islam champions will have less and less ground to stand on.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #34 - June 19, 2014, 03:40 AM

    Yep. And the funny thing is the idea of modesty is so subjective that I sometimes don't even understand how this is such a common belief.

    Somehow a woman in a culture where women go without anything covering their breasts can be respected members of society who are not constantly being raped and harassed, but a woman in Saudi Arabia who walks with full niqab and abaya down a street at night is asking for it, as is one who isn't covering her hair, etc etc. I know we've talked about this a lot on here, but, if anything, this crazy "modesty" standard leads to further sexualization and dehumanization of the woman. It's just an irritating misconception all around, and one I had to tackle with my husband not too long ago...but I think I mentioned that before, as well. The segregation just creates this completely warped, myopic view of reality.  wacko
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #35 - June 19, 2014, 03:42 AM

    #FreeNudism for mine.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #36 - June 19, 2014, 03:46 AM

    Islamic modesty is an oxymoron. Take the hijab. It specifically highlights and draws attention to the fact you have girly bits, and at the same time tells you not to notice. It's like being told not to notice a black dog by a person shoving a black dog in your face.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #37 - June 19, 2014, 03:51 AM

    Must admit I don't have that reaction to hijab. I think a better analogy would be a stripper shoving her tits in your face. Then you might have a point. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #38 - June 19, 2014, 03:53 AM

    I didn't look at it that way until I learned what the point of it was.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #39 - June 19, 2014, 03:55 AM

    K. Well I knew what the point of it was, and still don't have that reaction. Hijab or no hijab makes no difference to me.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #40 - June 19, 2014, 04:01 AM

    It's not the only thing that goes through my head, just pointing that out. Grin

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #41 - June 19, 2014, 04:05 AM

    The hijab doesn't do it for me like others do, either...I don't know why. I know the implications are there, but maybe it's just because I find hair so unremarkable. Grin

    The one that bothers me like that is seeing young girls in full veil, though. Fuck that, man.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #42 - June 19, 2014, 04:13 AM

    Seeing children wearing the hijab/veil/whatever, I have to say I find it disturbing. The other day I saw a girl no older than 5 wearing the whole modest clothing thing. It unsettled me.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #43 - June 19, 2014, 04:16 AM

    I understand why. I get that for some parents they see it as cultural/religious dress, and they don't necessarily acknowledge its purpose as a protective device/modesty thing, but it's nevertheless troubling to me.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #44 - June 19, 2014, 04:26 AM

    You're a smart lass. One day you're going to have to start a thread listing your apologist arguments. Be interesting to see.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #45 - June 19, 2014, 04:29 AM

    Aw, thanks! But if I put all my old arguments up here for you all to see, you wouldn't think I was that smart anymore. Grin
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #46 - June 19, 2014, 05:55 AM

    The only way to change said attitudes is to make it clear they are unacceptable. If the current situation is bad, you should want to change it.


    And i agree with you 500%. but at the same time, let us not act ignorant to the nature of men.  we should not pretend as if such behavior is just unimaginable. why are we even pretending to be surprised and flabbergasted when women wearing short dress get raped? also, as i alluded to in post, it is not as if women wearing burkahs do not get raped.

    I am not making excuses for rapists. all i am saying is we are NOT LIVING IN A WORLD WHERE every single man knows or have control over his desire. and that we should not be so fucking wide eyed when a women does get raped. whether she is wearing a burkah or a miniskirt.

    am i saying that men have this innate desire to rape? no
    am i saying men are born with the desire to rape? no
    am i saying that women wearing short dress deserve to be raped? no
    am i saying women wearing burkahs do not get raped? no

    smite me oh mighty smiter? i will remember this.

    "There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life." ― Frank Zappa
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #47 - June 19, 2014, 06:44 AM

    Most rapes, about 2/3 happens between the victim and someone she knows. Clothes has nothing to do with it. Rape commited by an unknown attacker rarely happens because of the victims clothes since many of them are dressed in "normal" everyday clothes. I know there is this idea that only women who are "immodest" in some way get raped. That is simply not true. As the video stated, a woman can be dressed in a burqa and still be raped. I don't think the actual number of rapes in Saudi is that much smaller than say France etc. It just happens in slightly different cultural context, and most likely goes unreported.

    In the end Harith, your attitude is the exacts same Islam has which leads women to be confined to their homes. A woman is never covered enough, she still gets raped. So now she must become invisible.
    If even dawah man understood this, I have hopes you will too...

    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #48 - June 19, 2014, 06:47 AM

    why are we even pretending to be surprised and flabbergasted when women wearing short dress get raped?

    Because of how rare an event it is. And because of how irrelevant the short skirt factor is in rape statistics. And because of how counterfactual the idea that short skirts increase risk is.

    What's the difference between saying women wearing short skirts are asking to be raped and women wearing short skirts should expect to be raped?

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #49 - June 19, 2014, 07:28 AM

    Do you think the little girl who is far from being pubescent should not be surprised if her father rapes her? 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #50 - June 19, 2014, 12:23 PM



    I am not making excuses for rapists. all i am saying is we are NOT LIVING IN A WORLD WHERE every single man knows or have control over his desire. and that we should not be so fucking wide eyed when a women does get raped. whether she is wearing a burkah or a miniskirt.





    Dude. What the hell are you talking about. Like, seriously, what the actual fuck??

    What do you mean we shouldn't get wide eyed about it?? That is exactly the sort of thing we SHOULD get wide eyed about. Any assault on any human being is something to get wide eyed about. A sexual assault such as a rape is a CRIME! It is a crime with huge and often long lasting impacts on the victim and the family. I'm flabbergasted and repulsed that you would say something as horrific as a rape is not something to get wide eyed about.


  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #51 - June 19, 2014, 12:27 PM

    You know what? Please don't answer. I can only see you digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. I'm not speaking in the capacity of a moderator here, though your initial smite was entirely warranted. Please just read up on the subject some more and refrain from making senseless comments that go against forum rules.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #52 - June 19, 2014, 12:57 PM

    Yeah clothes have nothing to do with rape atall, perverts don't sit and wait for the one with the shortest skirt, they attack when the timing is right.  Dress can draw unwanted attention, provoke or lead to a random attack though in certain situations, doesnt mean they deserve it or provoked it.  I've had unwanted attention in the past for my lack of clothes, one episode was with a bunch of muslim teenagers abroad, the other fully covered, so it doesnt really make much difference..  if we're to say that every guy is a potential rapist, then we are also potential murderers too and peadophiles etc.. ?  ?   
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #53 - June 19, 2014, 12:59 PM

     

    I am not making excuses for rapists. all i am saying is we are NOT LIVING IN A WORLD WHERE every single man knows or have control over his desire. and that we should not be so fucking wide eyed when a women does get raped. whether she is wearing a burkah or a miniskirt.



    To rape someone is a choice, every single time, not a fucking inevitability you moron.  finmad

    "The greatest general is not the one who can take the most cities or spill the most blood. The greatest general is the one who can take Heaven and Earth without waging the battle." ~ Sun Tzu

  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #54 - June 19, 2014, 01:07 PM

    Yeah clothes ,,,,,,,,,,,

    Oh! I FULLY agree with that statement ..   "Rape: It is your fault!" .. if guys and girls want to rape themselves..   the best Rape is "SELF  RAPE".. rape yourself..

    Quote
    Dress can draw unwanted attention, provoke or lead to a random attack though in certain situations, doesnt mean they deserve it.  

    well it proves people are still animals and we are evolved animals species  
    Quote
    I've had unwanted and violent attention in the past for my lack of clothes, one episode was with a bunch of muslim teenagers abroad, the other fully covered, so it doesnt really make much difference..  if we're to say that every guy is a potential rapist, then we are also potential murderers too and peadophiles etc.. ?  ?    

    I think around the globe., women get harassed/ molested  by their own acquaintances much more than rather some strangers or some Muslim teenagers irrespective of their religious background.. But it is true in war like situation such as present Iran/Iraq  things could go wrong  with strangers also..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #55 - June 19, 2014, 02:27 PM

    ^ just saying from my own experiences of receiving the wrong attention, one being scantily dressed the other in jeans and an outsized sloppy jumper makeup less etc,  it didnt make any difference. 

  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #56 - June 19, 2014, 02:31 PM

    I think American Pie did much to dismiss the notion that, to get aroused all a man needs is to be in the presence of a scantily clad woman. Still, I hear no protests against pie rape.

    Man: control thy penis.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #57 - June 19, 2014, 03:18 PM

    Yeah clothes have nothing to do with rape atall, perverts don't sit and wait for the one with the shortest skirt, they attack when the timing is right.


    Very well said, suki.
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #58 - June 19, 2014, 04:45 PM

    I'm curious Harith. If it really is an instinct we all share, why do your posts disgust and repel me instead of having me nod along in agreement?


    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Rape: It is your fault!
     Reply #59 - June 19, 2014, 05:46 PM

    Don't hold your breath, Quod.
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