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Theme Changer

 Topic: Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus

 (Read 19051 times)
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  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #60 - October 02, 2014, 11:40 PM

    That's a very fair point, but the Qur'an also frequently uses epithets as proper names by deleting the definite article.  "Two horned one" is a perfect example; it has no definite article as used in the Qur'an, but it clearly is an epithet, not Alexander's actual name.  So there has been a sort of conversion procedure.  Another Qur'anic example cited by Reynolds is "Salih," which Muslims have traditionally understood as the name of an otherwise unknown prophet, but which certainly is just the descriptive term "pious" that was originally used as an epithet to describe various prophets, and over time became understood as if it was actually the proper name of a specific actual prophet.  Unfortunately I don't have Reynolds' book in front of me at the moment or I could explain his argument better.

    In fact Salih is a very good example, because the Qur'an seems to take it as being like a proper name of a specific prophet, but in a curiously constrained way that is fairly similar to its use of Muhammad -- you could delete the name in each instance and the aya would still make sense.  So in my view the Qur'an's use of Muhammad is fairly similar to its use of "Salih."  Both were originally descriptive terms for holy figures, within pre-Islamic Arab Christian discourse, that became later taken as the proper names of prophets (one entirely fictitious (Salih), the other used to identify the Arab prophet (Mohammed)).

    Btw, it is a curious fact that Alexander was known as the 'two-horned one' because Greek iconography routinely divinized his head with the "horns of Ammon," as shown in the following example of a Hellenic coin, such imagery likely being the source for his reputation amongst illiterate Arabs.  The classical Islamic exegetes, unaware of this origin, came up with extremely contrived and peculiar ways to try to explain this name by reference to philology and the Qur'an alone.



    The more you dig into it, the more artificial and literary/theological many of the Qur'an's 'proper names' are.  Per Islamic tradition, there are only three proper names of Mohammed's contemporaries in the Qur'an -- Mohammed himself, Zayd, and Abu Lahab -- and all three are actually very odd.  Abu Lahab, as I've said before, is self-evidently a metaphorical name ("Father of Flame," bound for hellfire), not meant to be understood as a real figure.  Zayd, likewise, is the subject of David Powers' analysis and also his new book, entitled "Zayd," that describes him as a literary construct (haven't read that book yet).  Zayd is only referred to in one Qur'anic aya, 33:37, in the context of the highly-artificial and late ayas trying to characterize Mohammed's prophetic lineage (along with 33:40), which as I've said above appear to reflect some of the latest alterations to the basic rasm.  Powers' new book on point:

    http://chronicle.cornell.edu/stories/2014/05/quran-figure-zayd-literary-construct-says-scholar
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #61 - October 02, 2014, 11:46 PM

    I see you replied and made the same point while I was typing out that long-ass post!
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #62 - October 02, 2014, 11:54 PM

    Yeah. Thul-Qarnain is a little different because of the form itself. The Possessor of the Two Horns is probably a better translation, and the form itself implies a definite, known person. There is no need to add a definite article there. For example, Allah's 99 names all begin with a definite article with the exception of Thul-Jalal wal Ikram- The Possessor of (the) Majesty and (the) Glory. When the form is not used to describe a specific person, those articles are dropped. (For example, in 65:7 or 12:76)

    Nonetheless, Salih is an interesting example. I've often thought it was a rather generic sounding name,  given that he was supposedly an Arab prophet simply named "righteous." Still, it works as a proper name in the same way that Khalid or Rashid does. I suppose a case could be made either way, but it is far from a smoking gun in my opinion. There is so much about early Islamic history that we simply may never know.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #63 - October 03, 2014, 12:08 AM

    Yeah I would certainly not say that there is any definite proof one way or another ... just that the name is used in a very peculiar fashion that is not consistent with clear knowledge of a specific historical name.  I personally think it is unlikely to have been the prophet's real name, but there is no clear proof one way or the other.

    As to why the Qur'an does not use the name "Muhammad" more (in the 33:40 sense), I think it's an artifact of its composition process.

    My own belief is that the base Qur'anic texts were originally intended to be delivered anonymously, as commentary on the holy scripture, which is why they are so remarkably non-specific and studiously scrubbed of any limitation to a specific person (particularly in the Meccan surahs).  Instead the texts were a guide to 'saying' things to the faithful, as a lectionary, i.e. Qur'an, which after all is their name, following the Syriac Qeryana.  The message being delivered by the person reading the sermon is the same message that anybody could deliver, and represents the true explanation and commentary -- the true message of Allah, as an explanation in vernacular Arabic, not a divine revelation unique to a specific prophet.  So such messages were probably diffused throughout Arab populations as generalist monotheist preaching.  They lack contemporary names because they are intended to be general restatements of older messages delivered by Allah.

    Over time, you saw more and more specificity creep in, and the Qur'anic texts became not just a repetition of the correct explanation of the divine message that Allah sent to his people through the Biblical prophets and through Jesus (a message anybody could deliver by reading it out, reciting it), but rather a divine revelation to a specific prophet/military-leader, aka Mohammed.  In other words, it merged with the Arab prophet's rise to political/religious authority, incorporating his actions/proclamations, and those of his followers.  Subsequently this was all welded together into a composite text by scribes over a period of decades, including various additions, deletions, and modifications.  Such is my theory, at any rate.

    The later texts (aka Medinan) more strongly reflect this transition.  But the text was not completely altered, and the Qur'an thus represents a fascinating evolution, a hybrid text, moving between this sort of anonymous Arab lectionary and the message of an inspired Arabian prophet/leader (still keeping the now-inappropriate name 'Qur'an').  On top of that compilation process you have scribal modifications, some for reasons of form (breaking strophic structure, for example, and creating new rhyme schemes), some for reasons of theology (establishing Mohammed as the final prophet, aka 33:40).
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #64 - October 03, 2014, 12:53 PM

    I've kept this thread open all day, waiting for time to read it. Eventually, bone tired and half drunk, I did.

    Thanks again. Keep it coming.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #65 - October 03, 2014, 01:04 PM

    Ha me too, keep leaving this interesting thread open to read it but never get to it, perhaps later.. 
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #66 - October 03, 2014, 01:19 PM

    Why did a text intended as a book of general readings get to be worshipped? 

    That is the sort of major change that should be able to be tracked back to something.

    Is it a repeating theological problem with monotheism?  Ok, there is one god, how do you approach it?

    Rituals in a temple, a Christ who is both god and man, an immaculate virgin Mary,, a book?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #67 - October 03, 2014, 01:22 PM

    Has anyone checked all the monasteries and churches around there carefully?

    I predict large chunks of the koran are pre existing from earlier writings!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #68 - October 03, 2014, 05:42 PM

    I predict nothing like that ... I think the traditional Muslim account that the Qur'an was assembled from scraps of paper, writings on bone, and the memories of men is a fairly poetic way of stating the truth.

    Nobody in the region seems to have cared about, or heard about, the Qur'an until around the time of the Second Fitna/Dome of the Rock, at which time it was assembled and began being used as a political weapon in conjunction with a new Arab religious empire, most notably by Abd al Malik.

    It is famously true that the Qur'an plays remarkably little role in the development of Islamic law and in contemporary historical accounts of the rise of Islam.

    Prior to the large-scale compilation project, there were likely a bunch of relatively obscure and fragmentary writings, with extremely narrow distribution (Crone describes it as 'debris' from a world-historical event).  If you found any such older writings, they would resemble the 'short' Surahs appended to the end of the modern Qur'an -- in fact I believe those short Surahs are exactly that, largely pre-Islamic fragments, and representative of the types of older materials out of which the larger surahs of the Qur'an were assembled.  My own pet theory is that the short surahs are left over bits and pieces which pious later Muslims appended to the 'compiled' larger texts, as part of a 'don't miss anything' project.  This is why (a) they are notably not present in any of the earliest Qur'anic manuscripts that we have; and (b) their language and references are so remarkably obscure relative to the larger Surahs.

    I therefore doubt you would ever find any examples of such texts.  They were too rare, and if found would simply resemble fragments of what we call the Qur'an, much as the Dome of the Rock quotations do.  They would also seem overtly Christian, and you would not necessarily think of them as distinctively Islamic if you looked at the text alone.

    It is a small miracle that we found the Sanaa I palimpsest ... really an absolute miracle.  But that Qur'an was itself surely a fairly late product of the composition process, even though it diverges markedly from the "Cairo" Qur'an.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #69 - October 03, 2014, 07:00 PM

    Something that is puzzling me is that we have reasonably good records of the Greek/Roman world, but surely the Persian Empire had similar.  Where is it?  Or is Islamic jurisprudence actually the continuation of the Persian Empire?

    Quote
    Qutayba tore down the main Zoroastrian temple at Samarkand and melted down its treasure, repeating the process in other cities.
    [...]
    Of more lasting consequence was Qutayba's systematic destruction of books and religious literature. In Bukhara he destroyed an important library, but in Kath, the capital of Khwarazmian (near the Aral Sea in present-day Uzbekistan), he succeeded in wiping out an entire literature in the Khwarazmian language, including works on astronomy, history, mathematics, genealogy, and literature. Writing in the eleventh century, the great scientist Biruni rued this destruction as a crime against an ancient culture. Qutayba's special animus was directed against Zoroastrianism. Besides killing various writers from this faith, he obliterated much of the corpus of Zoroastrian theology and letters, a tragic loss to civilisation


    There have been worse losses than the Library of Alexandria - it looks as if most of the work of a huge empire over several centuries has gone.  Maybe Persia had a greater dark age than Europe.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #70 - October 03, 2014, 09:26 PM

    Wow,, I've literally wet myself reading this thread. It makes a lot more sense reading Zoaters posts within the contexts of a thread, as opposed to reading his individual posts, without reference to what he is replying to, plus reading them all chronologically backwards (I still don't know why I did that  wacko)

    Anyways, please can one of you clever people tell me more about what we know about the Sanaa 1 that Zoater mentions? What's it's relative age to (various parts of) the Quran, who are the authors? What do they have in common? Is one an evolution of the other, or are they linked branches? A nice link would do...I could Google it, but with my luck and judgement, I will end up reading horseshit.

    Hi
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #71 - October 03, 2014, 09:29 PM

    The Saa'naa palimpest musivore?
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #72 - October 03, 2014, 09:34 PM

    I also am interested in what exactly the Sanaa manuscripts show. I've heard everything from they show how well the Quran is preserved to it shows that the Quran has changed in significant ways since its compilation.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #73 - October 03, 2014, 09:36 PM

    Would be interesting to know jest justperusing.

    Need to get one of these scholars posting on the forum interesting stuff :p!
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #74 - October 03, 2014, 10:02 PM

    Sanaa Qur'anic manuscripts is a broad category that should not be mixed up.  There are two separate categories of significant Sanaa manuscripts -- early Qur'ans and the "Sanaa I" palimpsest.  The early Qur'ans are what Gerd Puin was talking about in his famous interview in the Atlantic (referring to variant spellings, unconventional verse orderings, etc.), which is how most people have heard of them.  But they are not really that interesting tbh except in terms of establishing what the original Qur'anic orthography was and how it evolved (which is what Puin is interested in).  You are not really talking about huge variations, you are talking about how different the base Uthmanic rasm is from the fully vocalized readings that Muslims imposed on it.  That's a fascinating subject, but the end result is more a Luxenberg type situation (radically re-reading the same rasm), not significant variations in the rasm itself.  IMO, it is correct to say that the manuscripts show that Muslim tradition has made a relatively good preservation of the base Qur'anic rasm of the Uthmanic text -- what they call into doubt is the tradition of vocalizing and interpreting that rasm.

    But the FAR more important find, and a separate issue, is that one of the Sanaa manuscripts is actually a 'palimpsest,' meaning it is an Uthmanic Qur'an that was written OVER an earlier Qur'anic manuscript, sometimes called Sanaa I.   In other words, an EARLIER Qur'an.  This palimpsest is sensationally interesting because it is chock full of major variations from the Uthmanic rasm -- it is a non-Uthmanic Qur'an, the only one ever found.  The first examples of such variations were published by Elisabeth Puin and then Alba Fedeli in the late 2000s.

    The neotraditionalist scholars Sadeghi and Goudarzi have published (in 2012) a full transcription of what they maintain the lower text says in half of the available manuscripts (other half has not been published yet).  They argue that it is a "Companion Codex," akin to the non-Uthmanic codices that the Muslim tradition records, although the Sanaa I palimpsest apparently has 25 times (!) the variants that Muslim tradition had recorded for such companion codices.  Sadeghi and Goudarzi contended that this palimpsest was extremely early, based on carbon dating, but Francois Deroche has subsequently (and I think correctly) rejected their claims, and dated it towards the end of the 7th Century.

    We do not yet have much scholarly commentary on the variations and their significance.  In some places, it appears the Sanaa I lower text has preserved the more archaic Qur'an text, and that the Uthmanic Qur'an has made additions to the base text.  In other places, it appears the Sanaa I lower text added additional material to the more archaic Qur'anic text.  So IMO it appears to be an early divergent form of Qur'an following the initial major compilation.  It is not itself 'more original' in the sense of being a direct ancestor of the modern Qur'an, but as a sibling Qur'anic text it is likely to shed a great deal of light on what the putative common ancestor of the Qur'anic manuscripts was like, as well as the climate in which it was produced (what kinds of changes were being made after that point, but before the standardized Qur'an project of Al Hajj and Abd al Malik).

    Links to this awesomely fascinating subject (there aren't many neutral descriptions so I included Muslim and non-Muslim sources):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript

    http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/oskar/palimpsest.html

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/soth.html

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/110978941/Sanaa-1-and-the-Origins-of-the-Qur-An

    The short version of all this is that it appears that the so-called Uthmanic rasm was rather well-preserved as we now know it in the Cairo text, but the Uthmanic rasm itself was a heavily modified form of a proto-Qur'an, and many of those Uthmanic modifications were later scribal additions imposed on the text -- not original content.  A good example is the extra 'and in the hereafter' that was included in Surah 9:74 -- the shorter Sanaa palimpsest version of 9:74 (which omits that phrase) is much more coherent, and the "and in the hereafter" phrase rather clearly looks like a later interpolation into the rasm that Muslims now know as 'the Qur'an.'  The rasm was very fluid at the stage when these texts emerged, and there was evidently little control against adding material that modified or explained its meaning.  So what you have in the standard version of 9:74 is a scribal addition that attempted to add that you ALSO will be punished in the afterlife (not just punished in this world, as the Sanaa palimpsest version has it).  An awkward addition designed to emphasize hellfire, and to remove the reader's possible perception that punishment would be *only* in this life.

    A sensationally interesting subject, and we have just begun to get academic reports on it.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #75 - October 03, 2014, 10:08 PM

    Wow, you write quicker than I can read. Thanks  Smiley

    Hi
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #76 - October 03, 2014, 10:17 PM

    if this thread was a book I'd buy it


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #77 - October 03, 2014, 10:22 PM

    Thanks Zaotar, voted for you for POTM!

    Your stuff is fascinating!
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #78 - October 03, 2014, 10:22 PM

    if this thread was a book I'd buy it




    ^ LIKE!

    Agreed; clear, interesting and concise!

    Zaotar, what do you think?
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #79 - October 03, 2014, 10:28 PM

    Thanks Zaotar, voted for you for POTM!

    Your stuff is fascinating!


    You don't want me to write down how much love I have for this guy. If I opened my heart on here, I fear the world would end with the volcano of emotions that I would unleash. So I won't. Instead, I'll add a

    +1

    Hi
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #80 - October 03, 2014, 11:07 PM

    I am currently thinking of stuff to put into an essay I want to write about my journey as the partner of an ex-muslim. It is going to take some serious thought but want to inject some humour into it.

    I hope I can be half as good a writer as Zaotar is.
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #81 - October 03, 2014, 11:14 PM

    Don't want to derail this beautiful thread any more than I already have done, but can you give us an update, perhaps on your intro thread, to let us know how that journey with him is going (or has gone?).

    And I'm sure it'll be a great read  Smiley

    Hi
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #82 - October 04, 2014, 12:29 AM


    Links to this awesomely fascinating subject (there aren't many neutral descriptions so I included Muslim and non-Muslim sources):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript

    http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/oskar/palimpsest.html

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/soth.html

    https://www.scribd.com/doc/110978941/Sanaa-1-and-the-Origins-of-the-Qur-An

    The short version of all this is that it appears that the so-called Uthmanic rasm was rather well-preserved as we now know it in the Cairo text, but the Uthmanic rasm itself was a heavily modified form of a proto-Qur'an, and many of those Uthmanic modifications were later scribal additions imposed on the text -- not original content.  A good example is the extra 'and in the hereafter' that was included in Surah 9:74 -- the shorter Sanaa palimpsest version of 9:74 (which omits that phrase) is much more coherent, and the "and in the hereafter" phrase rather clearly looks like a later interpolation into the rasm that Muslims now know as 'the Qur'an.'  The rasm was very fluid at the stage when these texts emerged, and there was evidently little control against adding material that modified or explained its meaning.  So what you have in the standard version of 9:74 is a scribal addition that attempted to add that you ALSO will be punished in the afterlife (not just punished in this world, as the Sanaa palimpsest version has it).  An awkward addition designed to emphasize hellfire, and to remove the reader's possible perception that punishment would be *only* in this life.

    A sensationally interesting subject, and we have just begun to get academic reports on it.


    Thanks for adding more to this post, and summarising the links for those of us who are too slow, or too lazy, to digest that.

    I love the conclusions reached by the Answering Islam guys: now that we have proof that the Quran is not the unchanging word of God, you can react in one of three ways:
    Anger
    Denial
    Turn to Jesus!

    Lol

    Hi
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #83 - October 04, 2014, 07:06 AM

    @Zaotar

    You mentioned that you thought the gospel being referred to in the Quran is the Diatesseron. Do you think the version they used included the apocryphal stories from the Protoevangelium of James and the Infancy Gospel of Thomas that appear in the Quran? Or was the Diatesseron merely a mish-mash of the the canonical gospels?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #84 - November 17, 2014, 06:14 AM

    Watching the Reynolds vids. If the Quran essentially originated in something of a Christian context, how did they understand the crucifixion of Jesus? I know the traditional readings say that Jesus was not crucified, but Zaotar was explaining that this is a garbled reading of the passage in an earlier thread. Were they like early Jewish Christians who saw Jesus death as a blood sacrifice for sins or did they just see it as an unfortunate end to a great prophetic career?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #85 - November 17, 2014, 05:40 PM

    The argument, as I understand it, is that in Eastern Semitic Christianity the crucifixion was not understood as conferring salvation in the same way that it was in Hellenized doctrinal Christianity.  Rather the divinity of Jesus was expressed through his extreme *obedience* and *piety*, by which death was rendered powerless over him.  So it was not the sacrifice of crucifixion that saves the believers.  Instead the message of Jesus was one of complete and total piety and obedience to the Father, by emulation of which we are saved.  Jesus was so radically obedient that (like Abraham sacrificing Isaac) he willingly went to his own death.  But because of that same piety, he could not genuinely be killed by the Jews -- he was crucified, but as a perfect martyr, he ascended instantly to heaven, rather than being killed in the ordinary sense.

    Put in more Muslim terms, just as the first jihadi martyrs are said by Mohammed (in Muslim tradition) to have 'run' into Paradise as they ran to their deaths in Jihad against the Byzantines, literally transitioning mid-stride into the Garden, so Jesus through his jihad-like devotion to Allah instantly was taken up into paradise.  The Jews did not succeed in killing him for real (in the sense other people die) because he was instantly 'taken up.'

    So this explains why the crucifixion does not figure nearly as much in Eastern Semitic Christianity -- the salvation came from devotion to Allah, and Jesus brought that salvation through his words and holy life.  The salvation did not come from a divine Jesus's death as a sacrifice for everybody.  In other words, the details of crucifixion are technically irrelevant to the mechanism of salvation, it is the absolute obedience to Allah, unto death, that saves (again, paralleling Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac).

    Here's how Wiki describes the Ebionite view on Jesus.  As explained above, I don't think that Islam literally reflects the Ebionite sect, but rather than both are examples of the obedience-centered Christology prevalent in Semitic Christianity.

    "The majority of Church Fathers[citation needed] agree that the Ebionites rejected many of the precepts central to Nicene orthodoxy, such as his pre-existence, divinity, virgin birth, atoning death, and physical resurrection.[6] On the other hand, an Ebionite story has Jesus eating bread with his brother Jacob ("James the Just") after the resurrection, which indicates that the Ebionites, or at least the ones who accepted this version of the Gospel of the Hebrews, very much believed in a physical resurrection for Jesus.[54] The Ebionites are described as emphasizing the oneness of God and the humanity of Jesus as the biological son of both Mary and Joseph, who by virtue of his righteousness, was chosen by God to be the messianic "prophet like Moses" (foretold in Deuteronomy 18:14–22) when he was anointed with the Holy Spirit at his baptism.[4] Origen (Contra Celsum 5.61)[55] and Eusebius (Historia Ecclesiastica 3.27.3) recognize some variation in the Christology of Ebionite groups; for example that while all Ebionites denied Christ's pre-existence there was a sub-group which did not deny the virgin birth.[56] Theodoret, while dependent on earlier writers,[57] draws the conclusion that the two sub-groups would have used different Gospels.[58]

    Of the books of the New Testament, the Ebionites are said to have accepted only a Hebrew (or Aramaic) version of the Gospel of Matthew, referred to as the Gospel of the Hebrews, as additional scripture to the Hebrew Bible. This version of Matthew, Irenaeus reports, omitted the first two chapters (on the nativity of Jesus), and started with the baptism of Jesus by John.[22]

    The Ebionites believed that all Jews and Gentiles must observe the commandments in the Law of Moses,[21] in order to become righteous and seek communion with God.[59]"
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #86 - November 17, 2014, 05:52 PM

    So Islam (submission) is seen as the salvation, not believing Christ died for our sins. Interesting Zaotar, thanks for that! Now what is the definition of submitting to allah? Standing up to authority and injustices despite any hurt caused to yourself, or is it submitting to living in a certain way with rules? I remember somewhere in the Qu'ran or Hadith Mohammed saying, if anything here gets proved wrong, follow that instead? This means standing up to authority in some cases does it not?
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #87 - November 17, 2014, 06:05 PM

    Couple of things

    This site discusses what proper scientific research can achieve with ancient documents

    http://www.archimedespalimpsest.org

    And on Lost Christianities (should Islam be counted as a form of Christianity?) I found this one fascinating!

    Quote
    For over 30 years I have been profoundly interested in the faiths, cultures, history and philosophies of ancient China. Most especially, I have been intrigued by that strange phenomenon, ancient Christianity in China. When I mention this deep interest, the most common response is a puzzled look and the question “What ancient Christianity?” Chinese Christianity dates from early in the Seventh Century, but it has been a closely kept secret, both for China and for Christianity. The tradition, as it developed, drew upon not only Christian imagery and philosophy, but also the wisdom of Daoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism. The texts that survive are few, but fascinating.  My colleagues and I, in recent years, entered, through them, the conceptual world of these early Chinese Christians. Most marvelous of all, hidden in plain sight in China’s heart, we discovered the earliest monastery—adorned with the earliest Christian artwork—that still survives. 

    The Discovery of a Treasure
    The place was not far from where, if legend can be believed, Lao Tzu wrote the Dao De Ching. In an incident straight out of a fairytale, it was an aged seller of amulets who was the instrument of revelation. My colleagues and I had come to Lou Guan Tai, the site of the greatest official Daoist temple. I believed that the earliest Christian church in China was located nearby.

    West of the main temple, we saw a perilously leaning seven-storey pagoda. We asked an old woman, a vendor of amulets, sitting nearby what religion it represented. “It is Buddhist,” she replied. As we turned away disappointed, she added, “But it wasn’t always Buddhist.” 

    Our hopes were aroused until she continued, “It used to be Daoist,” she told us. Crestfallen, we again prepared to leave. With impeccable timing, she again prevented us from departing.

    It doesn’t really belong to either of them, though,” the old woman confided. “It was built by five monks who came from the West and believed in one God.”


    http://www.sevenpillarshouse.org/article/the_jesus_sutras_an_ancient_message_for_a_post_modernist_future/

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #88 - November 17, 2014, 06:07 PM

    Is Islam Christianity meets Zarathustra?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Early Christianity and the Islamic Jesus
     Reply #89 - November 17, 2014, 06:22 PM

    So was the early believers movement a very Jewish Christian sect? Jewish Christianity fell into obscurity after the 3rd century or so, but did these groups that had similar beliefs as the Ebonites survive at the fringes of the Byzantine Empire, such as in Arabia?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
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