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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1499860 times)
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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2280 - June 27, 2018, 03:28 AM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO8TynsAL0Q

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2281 - June 27, 2018, 08:06 AM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1011645310374961152
    Quote
    An absolutely brilliant note by @lameensouag on a hapax legomenon (a word attested only once) in the Qur'an = yaqṭīn 'gourd'. He suggests that the word might reflect pre-Arabic substratum vocabulary from the central Higaz, the area of Mecca and Medina.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2282 - June 27, 2018, 10:24 AM

    There's no Mecca/Medina before Islam ; all of these historical affirmations are religious beliefs since they are not validated by by any sources.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2283 - June 27, 2018, 10:33 AM

    Quote
    An absolutely brilliant note by @lameensouag on a hapax legomenon (a word attested only once) in the Qur'an = yaqṭīn 'gourd'. He suggests that the word might reflect pre-Arabic substratum vocabulary from the central Higaz, the area of Mecca and Medina.



    I dont understand, what is brilliant about it? Whatever we dont know, we assign to the absence of evidence in the Hijaz and that is brilliant? Or am I missing the point?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2284 - June 27, 2018, 12:47 PM

    Scholars are yet to conduct thorough surveys in the are. We will have to wait.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2285 - June 27, 2018, 12:48 PM

    Scholars are yet to conduct thorough surveys in the are. We will have to wait.


    true .. true dear Mahgraye  indeed we have to wait.....long......long time  another 1000 years

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2286 - June 27, 2018, 02:00 PM

    We've had enough time to comprehend that there is no source about Mecca/Medina before Islam. Time to wake up folks!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2287 - June 27, 2018, 11:44 PM

    Mette Mortensen - The Concept of Muhājirūn and Its Potential Significance for the Piety of the Seventh-Century Qur'ānic Movement

    http://www.academia.edu/34703258/The_Concept_of_Muhājirūn_and_Its_Potential_Significance_for_the_Piety_of_the_Seventh-Century_Qurānic_Movement

    Apparently this relates to the subject of her dissertation:

    http://cas.au.dk/fileadmin/user_upload/Mette_Bjerregaard_Mortensen_-_PhD_defence_26_June_2018_-_Announcement.pdf

    https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1011833537580892160
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2288 - June 28, 2018, 03:56 AM

    Are any of you familiar with the work of Dr. Dan Brubaker? I know he found lots of corrections in early manuscripts, but was that in the rasm, the consonantal text, or in the marks and dots?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2289 - June 28, 2018, 06:09 AM

    Would not pay much attention to Dan Bubaker and his ilk. He probably found corrections, but not in the consonantal skeleton.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2290 - June 28, 2018, 11:26 AM



    Thomas Hoffman is always interesting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2291 - June 28, 2018, 09:55 PM

    Short of water? in Pakistan

    well all this below is from that link.,  if that is about water shortage in Pakistan then Why you   fool put this stupid stuff in the  Qur'anic studies today folder ??

    Sorry.... really sorry   Huh? Huh?
    Quote
    Then why all this scaremongering?

    The first set of beneficiaries of such an attitude are poorly funded ‘scientific’ organisations struggling to persuade funding agencies to give ‘research’ money for their ‘urgent’ studies that would prevent the ‘looming doom’. When funds are acquired, they can justify their existence, and their so-called scholars can add the names of a few publications to their CVs.

    The next set of beneficiaries are the ‘donors’ feeding the funding agencies. If a ‘looming doom’ successfully translates into a mega project, the ‘donors’ are more than compensated by the business deals that come up — hefty construction contracts, expensive machine, and large material supplies. The bigger the scare, the bigger the project and the bigger the dividends.


    It seems it fits well with history of Islam or history of Quran.....  does it??

    in fact it fits well with ALL FAITHS AND THEIR RESPECTIVE SCRIPTURES AND THEIR ORIGINS,,,

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2292 - June 29, 2018, 07:30 AM

    Thomas Hoffman is always interesting.

    indeed he is very articulate in his work on early Islam/Quran...  His  2009  book  "The Poetic Qurʾān: Studies on Qurʾānic Poeticity"  is worth reading  I wonder whether you scanned through it dear Altara ??

    and I  wonder how many you guys who write in to this folder read  through that Journal of Islamic Studies regularly??

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2293 - June 29, 2018, 12:54 PM

    All his articles about the Quran are interesting. From what he says one can conclude that he does not believe one second to the traditional account. Because it is impossible to write what he writes believing in it (like Dye for example...).
    As I'm not an academic, I have no access to the Journal of Islamic Studies.In hindsight, I'm not so sure to need it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2294 - June 29, 2018, 01:00 PM

    Altara - Who's articles? This Hoffman guy or Mortensen? What about Dye? Did not get your remark.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2295 - June 29, 2018, 01:37 PM

    Reread me carefully you will comprehend.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2296 - June 29, 2018, 02:21 PM

    I do not think Dye is inconsistent, believing in the traditional narrative and not believing in it at the same time. Assuming that is what you meant.

    My first question remains unanswered. Not sure who you were referring to, but will have to look through the links, I guess
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2297 - June 29, 2018, 02:36 PM

    You have (with all due respect) a really big problem of comprehension dear Mahgraye. I'm not sure that this problem is really helpful to try to comprehend the emergence of the Quran and the Quran itself.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2298 - June 29, 2018, 02:48 PM

    I take it Altara is referring to Thomas Hoffmann
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk8g31L4jdI
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KaDdfelFYyM
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lzxTt8mQuX4
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XfGaCceFzDw
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1ohx9oNOsjo
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NzOJICGATeg

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2299 - June 29, 2018, 03:30 PM

    Thanks Zeca.
    Dear Mahgraye, listen to these video and read his articles.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2300 - June 29, 2018, 05:15 PM

    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1012677849952735233
    Quote
    <Aramaic in Arabia> The oldest dated inscription in the Arabic script comes from Himā, on a route 100km north of Najrān. While its letter shapes reflect the complete transition from Nabataean to Arabic script, the language is Aramaic...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2301 - June 29, 2018, 06:14 PM

     While its letter shapes reflect the complete transition from Nabataean to Arabic script, the language is Aramaic...

    Therefore the Arabic script come from Syriac...and has nothing to do with Nabatean... Just need eyes to see it...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2302 - June 29, 2018, 06:19 PM

    First, thanks to Zeca and Altara. I also extend an apology to Altara for being an somewhat annoying, haha.

    What is the implication for the Quran if Arabic script came from Syriac instead of Nabatean? Does it lend support to Luxenberg's thesis?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2303 - June 29, 2018, 07:18 PM

    Thread on the derivation of ’qur’an’:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1012643720146104320

    https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1012713444993363968

    https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielABeck9/status/1012740921593507841
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2304 - June 29, 2018, 07:38 PM

    Quote
    What is the implication for the Quran if Arabic script came from Syriac instead of Nabatean? Does it lend support to Luxenberg's thesis?



    Not necessarily. It lend support to the fact that the Quranic script has nothing to see with the peninsula, but with Syriac. And therefore to its content ; the Biblical world outside the peninsula since it is not written in the Yemeni cursive.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2305 - June 29, 2018, 08:47 PM

    I figured as much. But the Arabic script being influenced more by Syriac than Nabatean is still a minority opinion. This has been the case ever since the days of Nöldeke.


    Al-Jallad thinks that there is no evidence for a Syriac influence on the Arabic script. Relying on the Yazid inscription, Al-Jallad argues that if Syriac did influence Arabic, then one would not find the dot above the dāl, since in Syriac the dot is always placed under.

    This was in regards to the Syriac influence.

    Al-Jallad also thinks that the Quran could not have been written in Arabia Patrea. Per al-Jallad, even in the sixth century, the Quran's dialect and orthography do not match the Arabic inscriptions of the southern Levant.

    His colleague, Marijn van Putten, agrees and goes on to say that the linguistic facts of pre-Islamic Syro-Palestine are irreconcilable with Quranic Arabic.

    For van Putten, the loss of the glottal stop (hamza) is another indication that the Quran is not from Syro-Palestine, since such a feature is accosiated with Western Arabia and not Syro-Palestine, since the latter had retained it. One must assume - according to van Putten - an elaborate conspiracy by the Arab grammarians to connect the loss of the hamza with the Hijaz and not Petra if one wants to locate the Quran somewhere in Syro-Palestine.

    I personally find the Syriac-hypothesis to be very intriguing. Especially the fact that the Syriac script looks similar to the Arabic one.

    All your thoughts are welcome, especially Altara's.

    NOTE: No side are taken here. I merely passed on thw arguments of the other side.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2306 - June 29, 2018, 09:04 PM



     The verb قرأ qaraʾa 'to read, recite' is likely a loanword from North-West Semitic, where especially the meaning "to read" is common; This cannot be a meaning from Proto-Arabic, since Proto-Arabic was not written. End of story.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2307 - June 29, 2018, 09:13 PM

    The second tweet/thread on quran and qeryan was especially interesting. I thought there was a consensus that the former derived from the latter. Daniel Beck (aka Zaotar) used to think so, but it seems he has changed his mind.

    Altara and Zeca - what do you think?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2308 - June 29, 2018, 09:53 PM

    Quote
    I figured as much. But the Arabic script being influenced more by Syriac than Nabatean is still a minority opinion. This has been the case ever since the days of Nöldeke.


    For Quranic studies scholars, Nöldeke is a kind of Bukhari or Muslim.

    Quote
    Al-Jallad thinks that there is no evidence for a Syriac influence on the Arabic script. Relying on the Yazid inscription, Al-Jallad argues that if Syriac did influence Arabic, then one would not find the dot above the dāl, since in Syriac the dot is always placed under.

    Al-Jallad is a Muslim who want desperately that the peninsula be responsible of the Quranic script.
    I've posted  sometimes ago here the academia link article of F. Briquel-Chatonnet. I encourage you to translate it with https://www.deepl.com/translator. It's perfectly clear to me that Nöldeke is wrong and that she's right. A scripture should be envisaged as a system and not letter by letter like Al Jallad et al. do. The photos she shows proves that she's right, whatever Nöldeke, Al Jallad et al. said.

    Quote
    Al-Jallad also thinks that the Quran could not have been written in Arabia Patrea. Per al-Jallad, even in the sixth century, the Quran's dialect and orthography do not match the Arabic inscriptions of the southern Levant.


    What Al-Jallad states is nonsense and prove its incompetency as an historian. The inscriptions we have and  the Quran are surely not written by the same people.  Shepherds are not literati people.That would be known. On the other hand Quranic manuscripts show that there is no stable orthography at that time.

    Quote
    His colleague, Marijn van Putten, agrees and goes on to say that the linguistic facts of pre-Islamic Syro-Palestine are irreconcilable with Quranic Arabic.

    Is the hamza a needed artefact in the Arabic language to the point of being indispensable   to people who have it in their own language to read the Quranic text which have not it?
    Not at all. Hamza or not in your own Arabic you can read perfectly well the Quran ; that was the case of the grammarians of the 9th.c.
    On the other hand, van Putten states that the Quranic language is heavily influenced by Aramaic he cannot say which one but for him, not Syriac. This point is very interesting, he will publish a paper about that this Fall. But in the same time he states that he do not know very well Aramaic... : "'The semantics of 'qurʾān', which seems to mean 'holy recitation' is not even a particularly good match for the specific meaning in Syriac where it apparently received a specialized meaning of 'Scripture lesson'. Someone who knows Syriac better than me might be able to confirm."
    This kind of declaration seems strange ; when you do not know very well something you cannot affirm things like he does : it seems to me very imprudent.
    Quote
    I personally find the Syriac-hypothesis to be very intriguing. Especially the fact that the Syriac script looks similar to the Arabic one.


    The look similar is impressive. Especially in the article of F. Briquel-Chatonnet. I repeat to be clear that  the Syriac origin of the Quranic script has nothing to do with the Luxenberg hypothesis which is not about the Quranic script but the vocabulary of the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #2309 - June 29, 2018, 09:54 PM

    The second tweet/thread on quran and qeryan was especially interesting. I thought there was a consensus that the former derived from the latter. Daniel Beck (aka Zaotar) used to think so, but it seems he has changed his mind.

    Altara and Zeca - what do you think?



    Van Putten :" The verb قرأ qaraʾa 'to read, recite' is likely a loanword from North-West Semitic, where especially the meaning "to read" is common; This cannot be a meaning from Proto-Arabic, since Proto-Arabic was not written. "
    End of story.
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