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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3120 - August 14, 2018, 04:15 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary.


    The scholars and the monks stand in opposition to Allah and the Messiah. Why would Allah be textually in the center of the ones not to be worshipped? In the English an artificial "also"is necessary to make the traditional reading plausible.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3121 - August 14, 2018, 04:18 PM
    good...good..,  Mahgraye  read more Quran verses
    Quote
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 02:32 PM
    Do you guys think that Q 9:31 affirms the divinity of Jesus? There is a reasonable case for that.

     
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 03:34 PM
    No. Son of Mary is Jesus. You are probably thinking about 5:116 were some scholars argue that "mother" is another word for the Holy Ghost.



    so what do we have now??   4:159.,  5: 116.,  9: 31., and 43: 61.


    Quote
    4:159.   And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

    5: 116.   And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

    9: 31.   They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one God only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him).

    43: 61.   And most surely it is a knowledge of the hour, therefore have no doubt about it and follow me: this is the right path.


    glad to read all that
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3122 - August 14, 2018, 04:24 PM
    I. di Matteo reasons that the verse is more sensible if al-masīḥ is read in the genitive:

    Quote
    They took their rabbis and monks as Lords apart from God and Christ the Son of Mary.


    instead of:

    Quote
    They took their rabbis and monks and Christ the Son of Mary as Lords apart from God.

     

    Assuming Matteo is correct, which is not unreasonable, then the verse, contra the traditional understanding, affirms the divinity of Jesus.

    See I. di Matteo, La divinità di Cristo e la dottrina della Trinità in Maometto e nei polemisti musulmani (Rome 1938), ch. 1.

    Something I realised: the Swedish translation of the verse by Karl Vilhelm Zetterstéen is very close to Matteo's new reading.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3123 - August 14, 2018, 04:40 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 14, 2018, 04:15 PM
    Altara,

    The scholars and the monks stand in opposition to Allah and the Messiah. Why would Allah be textually in the center of the ones not to be worshipped? In the English an artificial "also"is necessary to make the traditional reading plausible.


    It is ambiguous  ; but I think the traditional reading is the good one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3124 - August 14, 2018, 04:45 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 04:24 PM

    Assuming Matteo is correct, which is not unreasonable, then the verse, contra the traditional understanding, affirms the divinity of Jesus.


    Then the Quran would be Christian? Evangelical? As he sees Jews converting to Christ...  Huh?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3125 - August 14, 2018, 04:51 PM
    9:31

    1/ What casus is Allah if the messiah is a genitive according to Matteo?

    2/ How is this son of Mary epithet explained? a later addition?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3126 - August 14, 2018, 05:50 PM
    Christian, yeah.

    Son of Mary is Jesus. Nothing ambiguous at all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3127 - August 14, 2018, 05:52 PM
    Son of Mary: a Christian wouldnt say that. It is son of God
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3128 - August 14, 2018, 05:56 PM
    It occurs in the Gospel of Mark.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3129 - August 14, 2018, 06:00 PM
    Quote
    9:31

    What casus is Allah if the messiah is a genitive according to Matteo?


    Listen Manfred Kropp from 25min. : there is no declination in Arabic, it is artificial in the Quran.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G1dHK7fbqk&index=2&list=PLrxfWBuFyjdWjgPAbxIlDFWVZcod7q_4t
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3130 - August 14, 2018, 06:02 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 14, 2018, 05:52 PM
    Son of Mary: a Christian wouldnt say that. It is son of God


    Of course.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3131 - August 14, 2018, 06:05 PM
    9:31

    No case at all? So the genitive Matteo mentions for Allah is not visible?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3132 - August 14, 2018, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 05:56 PM
    It occurs in the Gospel of Mark.


    You give the citation?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3133 - August 14, 2018, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: mundi on August 14, 2018, 06:05 PM
    9:31

    No case at all? So the genitive Matteo mentions for Allah is not visible?


    Listen to Kropp
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3134 - August 14, 2018, 06:07 PM
    Not sure I got Altara's point about Arabic, citing Kropp. Please elaborate?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3135 - August 14, 2018, 06:29 PM
    Quote
    You give the citation?


    Mark 6:3

    Matthew 13:53-58.

    See:
    MTAuMTExMS9qLjE0NzgtMTkxMy4xOTM0LnRiMDAzMDEueA==/bishop19
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3136 - August 14, 2018, 06:34 PM
    Quote
    Not sure I got Altara's point about Arabic, citing Kropp. Please elaborate?


    Dear Mahgraye,

    Declension in Arabic is not needed.  Therefore in the Quranic Arabic it is not functional (therefore artificial) and misleads the reader.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3137 - August 14, 2018, 06:38 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 06:29 PM
    Mark 6:3

    Matthew 13:53-58.

    See:
    MTAuMTExMS9qLjE0NzgtMTkxMy4xOTM0LnRiMDAzMDEueA==/bishop19


    Ok.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3138 - August 14, 2018, 06:40 PM
    Declination i i3rab, right?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3139 - August 14, 2018, 06:40 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 06:29 PM
    Mark 6:3

    Matthew 13:53-58.

    See:
    MTAuMTExMS9qLjE0NzgtMTkxMy4xOTM0LnRiMDAzMDEueA==/bishop19

    Mahgraye reads every  so-called scripture as word of god and blemish-less  and  and UNQUESTIONABLE

    Quote
    Matthew 13:53-58
     
    53 When Jesus had finished these parables, he moved on from there.

    54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. “Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?” they asked.

     55 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?

    56 Aren’t all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?”

    57 And they took offense at him. But Jesus said to them,  “A prophet is not without honor except in his own town and in his own home.”

    58 And he did not do many miracles there because of their lack of faith.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3140 - August 14, 2018, 07:00 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on August 14, 2018, 06:40 PM
    Declination i i3rab, right?


    The true word is declension : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declension
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3141 - August 14, 2018, 07:15 PM
    And this refutes Matteo's reading?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3142 - August 14, 2018, 07:20 PM
    The genitive is in fact no functional.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3143 - August 14, 2018, 08:12 PM
    genitive: non functional but would it show in the rasm? I listened to Kropp but will need to re-listen  Cry

    It was not clear to me if he was speaking of the Quranic rasm or the contemporary text. I understand that the artificial case adding is through short vowels and these would not show up in the rasm...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3144 - August 14, 2018, 08:21 PM
    Quote
    I understand that the artificial case adding is through short vowels and these would not show up in the rasm...


    1/"and these would not show up in the rasm." Yes.
    2/Re listen him to to fully understand.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3145 - August 14, 2018, 08:24 PM
    So this means that Maggraye's reading of 9:31 makes perfect sense? Even more than the traditional one because the placement of the words is weird for that?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3146 - August 14, 2018, 08:25 PM
    Quote
    So this means that Maggraye's reading


    Which is ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3147 - August 14, 2018, 08:29 PM
    ittakhadhū aḥbārahum waruh'bānahum arbāban min dūni l-lahi  wal-masīḥa, etc.

    Hahaha !

    When I say : "I've taken scholars and monks as Lords outside(...) of God and Mundi.

    What I say?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3148 - August 14, 2018, 08:30 PM
    Matteo's reading:

    Quote
    They took their rabbis and monks and Christ the Son of Mary as Lords apart from God.


    basically the same as the internet reading without kommas and "also":
    Quote
    They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah, and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary


    Words the same, understanding completely different.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3149 - August 14, 2018, 08:39 PM
    Traditional reading:

    Quote
    They took their rabbis and monks and Christ the Son of Mary as Lords apart from God.


    Matteo's reading:

    Quote
    They took their rabbis and monks as Lords apart from God and Christ the Son of Mary.

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