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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4830 - October 14, 2018, 08:21 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 14, 2018, 08:01 AM
    well  that took almost 20 years ..  She published it in 1987...

    So Question to you Altara.,  How many years do you think it will take for Academic Scholars of Islam  to start singing your song "Mecca, Muhammad, Zamzam , kabba"   Cheesy and start looking in to the origin of   PRESENT Quran and origin of Islam at different places  out of Arabian desert?


    It will not start.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4831 - October 14, 2018, 08:28 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 14, 2018, 08:21 AM
    It will not start.

    why?  

    1).  you think it will not start until all the oil leaks out of Arabian desert?  

    2).  or it will  never start because Juicy   converts will never stop singing juicy songs

    So  1  or 2?

    well didn't had time to finish the post

    So question to Altara, Mahgraye,     mundi, Marc S, Asbjoern1958,  and other readers ..

    And the question again is about the present  Mecca of Saudi Arabia    on ..... Kaaba,  cave hira and Zam Zam water well  ... I wonder any one of you have any time line history of  these places before Islam  say  300 AD  to  after Islam until the year 1000 AD ,,

    I appreciate any old literature / stories on those three from Non- Muslim sources..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4832 - October 14, 2018, 09:13 AM
    Quote
    why?

    1).  you think it will not start until all the oil leaks out of Arabian desert?

    2).  or it will  never start because Juicy   converts will never stop singing juicy songs

    So  1  or 2?


    Three points.
    1/ The penetration of Islam in the Western world make that it will more and more difficult to scholars to state before their (Muslims) students this kind of idea.
    2/  The  censorship in the scholarship milieu,  social pressure, due the possible accusation of "conspiracy " for those who would not  "enough" believe to the Muslim narrative and being mocked and put aside by their colleagues and by the authorities of their institutions (even if they are not founded by Orient oil) Kerr case for example.
    3/ The (big) anthropological stakes of a rational, logical, coherent explication of the origin of the Quranic texts putting aside the narrative must not  be neglected.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4833 - October 14, 2018, 09:24 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 14, 2018, 09:13 AM
    Three points.
    1/ The penetration of Islam in the Western world make that it will more and more difficult to scholars to state before their (Muslims) students this kind of idea.
    2/  The  censorship in the scholarship milieu,  social pressure, due the possible accusation of "conspiracy " for those who would not  "enough" believe to the Muslim narrative and being mocked and put aside by their colleagues and by the authorities of their institutions (even if they are not founded by Orient oil) Kerr case for example.
    3/ The (big) anthropological stakes of a rational, logical, coherent explication of the origin of the Quranic texts putting aside the narrative must not  be neglected.

    well I will Question all those three points  because of ...................  but dear Altara  please  see  my query in that post again as i modified it ...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4834 - October 14, 2018, 09:40 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 14, 2018, 08:28 AM
    And the question again is about the present  Mecca of Saudi Arabia    on ..... Kaaba,  cave hira and Zam Zam water well  ... I wonder any one of you have any time line history of  these places before Islam  say  300 AD  to  after Islam until the year 1000 AD ,,I appreciate any old literature / stories on those three from Non- Muslim sources..


    Sorry Yeez, Ive really no time for this, and as I'm focused on the origin of the Quranic texts this topic does not interest me.
    But from 300 AD to Islam, there is nothing historical about this stuff and after it is Muslim narratives elaborated (mainly) from the Quran.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4835 - October 14, 2018, 09:51 AM
    Quote from: Altara on October 14, 2018, 09:40 AM
    Sorry Yeez, Ive really no time for this, and as I'm focused on the origin of the Quranic texts this topic does not interest me.
    Quote
    But from 300 AD to Islam, there is nothing historical about this stuff and after it is Muslim narratives elaborated (mainly) from the Quran.


    well that is an important point..  So  you are saying those three objects of Islamic history are related/connected  to Quran/ Quran sayings  by  elaboration/extrapolation or imagination  or otherwise., although it  is from  Islam following story tellers..

     And off course  Academics from western universities are running and writing stories with those  same Islamic stories without carefully scrutinizing those stories,,

    anyways ...   thank you..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4836 - October 14, 2018, 10:58 AM
    There is one old article of Hawting about Mecca stuff :
    http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/islam-quotes-juynboll-hawting.htm

    And a new one (not still available) :Sanctuary and Text : How Can We Make Sense of the Evidence About the Pre-Islamic and Early Islamic History of the Meccan Sanctuary ? in here ; http://www.mehdi-azaiez.org/Die-Koranhermeneutik-von-Gunter-Luling-par-George-Tamer-Octobre-2018

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4837 - October 14, 2018, 01:12 PM
    The Origins of Islam: A Conversation with the German Islamic Scholar Josef van Ess

    http://www.goethe.de/ges/phi/prj/ffs/the/a96/en8626506.htm
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4838 - October 14, 2018, 02:54 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 14, 2018, 08:19 AM
    There is no "Mecca" in the Hijaz before Islam as recounted by Ibn Ishaq. Because it is in this frame that the story of Muhammad  supposed producer of the Quran and starting point of armies to conquest because of the Quran  is recounted and not another one.

    To Mundi
    Petra is not as well  "Mecca";  simply because it is very improbable that in a Christian scribal city a man talking to God during 20 years this story was not known by anyone.


    This could have well happened (someone pretending to hear a message from God) but not in the way Ibn Ishaq tells it and, anyway, the description of Mecca has nothing to do with Petra in terms of population and their respective religion.

    Quote
    End of story. Petra  as the "real" Mecca is an impasse of this simple fact and this hypothesis has to be put aside definitively.  Gibson can say what he wants he is not  graduated nor an historian. If it was, he would have note only the two following points :


    Well what makes his thesis irrealistic is because he both claims that Petra is the Mecca of islam and he believes in the muslim narrative (supernatural stuff excluded) ; the 2 cannot coexist together as it brings too much incoherence.

    Quote
    As I already said the two things which is interesting about Petra is that 1/ the first mosques tend to be pointed to it

    Mosks are directed to an area rather than a town.

    Quote from: mundi
    3/We have the archaeological ruins of an enormous necropole in Petra. The carved grottos were not for habitation but for ancestry devotion. That corresponds with pre-islamic sources of ancestral worship


    Petra is nowhere in jewish writings . Now Nabateans are supposed to come from Ismael's eldest son Nebayoth. Now is there any shrine for Nebayoth or for Ismael in Petra ? as far as I know, this isn't the case.

    Quote
    Maybe there are other places too in Negev/Sinai that culd be a fit?


    Procopius Sozomen speak about the cave of the Patriarch in Hebron Mamre as a pilgrimmage place for arabs.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4839 - October 14, 2018, 03:04 PM
    Marc,

    Quote
    Mosks are directed to an area rather than a town


    Why do we need Gibson's thesis to be true or false? let's look at the new elements he brings to the debate. Maybe these early mosques do point to an area. That needs to be examined.

    Petra might not be mentioned in the sources we would expect, but it is there! So we can't deny its existence as we can with Mecca
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4840 - October 14, 2018, 03:24 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 14, 2018, 02:54 PM
    This could have well happened (someone pretending to hear a message from God)


    And keep for himself? Why not. And then write it down? Why not. And then what happen?  "Abu Bakr"/"Utman" found the writings on the road? And inspired by the angel Gabriel they were convinced?

    Quote
    but not in the way Ibn Ishaq tells it

     

    What way, any idea? I've personally none. The way Ibn Ishaq tells it is the only credible way for Arabs of this time. The Quran allows many narrative elaborations when heavily pressed.

    Quote
    and, anyway, the description of Mecca has nothing to do with Petra in terms of population and their respective religion.


    Except the description of the map of Mecca in the 9th c. narrative as copied from the Petra one as shown Gibson : it is a remarkable and interesting point.

    Quote
    Well what makes his thesis irrealistic

    Of course. Here we can see the great weakness of Gibson. If this guy has been graduated he would have never say what he says.

    Quote
    Petra is nowhere in jewish writings . Now Nabateans are supposed to come from Ismael's eldest son Nebayoth. Now is there any shrine for Nebayoth or for Ismael in Petra ? as far as I know, this isn't the case.


    Of course all of this is bull***. The better is to stop talking about Petra = Mecca.

    Quote
    Procopius speak about the cave of the Patriarch in Hebron as a pilgrimmage place for arabs.


    Do you have the reference?
    There is one old article of Hawting about Mecca stuff : very interesting ... I did not know it as he does not post his work on academia.
    http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/islam-quotes-juynboll-h
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4841 - October 14, 2018, 04:05 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 14, 2018, 03:04 PM
    Marc,

    Why do we need Gibson's thesis to be true or false? let's look at the new elements he brings to the debate. Maybe these early mosques do point to an area. That needs to be examined.

    Petra might not be mentioned in the sources we would expect, but it is there! So we can't deny its existence as we can with Mecca


    I am just responding to people who wants to claim Gibson's thesis as true ; it isn't but it does bring some food for thought to the debate.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4842 - October 14, 2018, 04:22 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 14, 2018, 03:24 PM
    And keep for himself? Why not. And then write it down? Why not. And then what happen?  "Abu Bakr"/"Utman" found the writings on the road? And inspired by the angel Gabriel they were convinced?


    A so called prophet could well have lived and preached in Petra, a multi-religious center but his life wouldn't have been like Ibn Ishaq recounted it.
     
    Quote
    What way, any idea? I've personally none.


    The way is Year of the Elephant/cave of Hira/ Flight to Medina/Badr/Uhud/etc,etc,etc narrative.

    Quote
    Do you have the reference?


    Sorry it is not Procopius but Sozomen and he mentions in that link a pilgrimmage to Mamre. My memory is getting bad.  Cry

    https://books.google.fr/books?id=Y5RcCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA241&lpg=PA241&dq=sozomenus+arab+pilgrimage+abraham&source=bl&ots=OlSQtjyFp5&sig=KzEGC9MK6z0hcZ1b6Tnf5CjXEfY&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjT0N_EpobeAhUN2BoKHSSeASIQ6AEwAXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=sozomenus%20arab%20pilgrimage%20abraham&f=false
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4843 - October 14, 2018, 04:25 PM
    Quote
    There is one old article of Hawting about Mecca stuff : very interesting ... I did not know it as he does not post his work on academia.


    A famous article of his. This is the article Sean Anthony is currently writing a response to.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4844 - October 14, 2018, 05:37 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 14, 2018, 04:22 PM
    A so called prophet could well have lived and preached in Petra, a multi-religious center but his life wouldn't have been like Ibn Ishaq recounted it.


    Quote
    What way, any idea? I've personally none.

    Quote
    The way is Year of the Elephant/cave of Hira/ Flight to Medina/Badr/Uhud/etc,etc,etc narrative.


    It is the same way as ibn Ishaq.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4845 - October 14, 2018, 05:43 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 14, 2018, 04:25 PM
    A famous article of his. This is the article Sean Anthony is currently writing a response to.


    And a new one (not still available) :Sanctuary and Text : How Can We Make Sense of the Evidence About the Pre-Islamic and Early Islamic History of the Meccan Sanctuary ? in here ; http://www.mehdi-azaiez.org/Die-Koranhermeneutik-von-Gunter-Luling-par-George-Tamer-Octobre-2018
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4846 - October 14, 2018, 05:48 PM
    Marc,

    Quote
    Sozomen speak about the cave of the Patriarch in Hebron Mamre as a pilgrimage place for arabs.


    Your link is very interesting but doesnt show all pages. I did find reference that in Heliopolis till deep in 6th C, pagan temples were still active. Can we assume that pagan Arab traditions (eg praying focus?) might still have been somewhat alive? Who knows, could the memory of Petra and other sites have been active?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4847 - October 14, 2018, 05:51 PM
    Quote
    And a new one (not still available) :Sanctuary and Text : How Can We Make Sense of the Evidence About the Pre-Islamic and Early Islamic History of the Meccan Sanctuary ? in here ; http://www.mehdi-azaiez.org/Die-Koranhermeneutik-von-Gunter-Luling-par-George-Tamer-Octobre-2018


    Looking forward to it. Hawting is a great scholar. I also look forward to Anthony's rebuttal.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4848 - October 14, 2018, 06:12 PM
    Magggraye,

    The link to the Hawking article doesnt work...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4849 - October 14, 2018, 06:18 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 14, 2018, 05:48 PM
    Marc,

    Your link is very interesting but doesnt show all pages. I did find reference that in Heliopolis till deep in 6th C, pagan temples were still active. Can we assume that pagan Arab traditions (eg praying focus?) might still have been somewhat alive? Who knows, could the memory of Petra and other sites have been active?


    This was the main assumption of Nevo/Koren in Crossroads to Islam.

    I think that you had some pagans yes but I would say that their rituals became included in monotheism religions as they converted to them. Clearly the black stone in the Ka'ba today is the remain of a pagan cult around fertility.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4850 - October 14, 2018, 06:20 PM
    Quote from: Altara on October 14, 2018, 05:37 PM
    It is the same way as ibn Ishaq.



    Yes but what I am telling you is that one man could have claimed to have received a message from God in Petra without making the headlines but his story couldn't have happened in the way Muhammad story is told.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4851 - October 14, 2018, 06:35 PM
    I guess.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4852 - October 14, 2018, 06:36 PM
    Quote
    The link to the Hawking article doesnt work...


    His old article or his latest talk?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4853 - October 14, 2018, 06:44 PM
    Mahgraye,

    Found working link to old article, didnt realise there was also a talk.. Thanks
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4854 - October 14, 2018, 06:49 PM
    I can send you the proper article if you want?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4855 - October 14, 2018, 07:05 PM
    Thank you Maggraye, would be nice.

    Mean time I am reading:

    Hawting:

    Quote
    It seems likely that the Meccan sanctuary was chosen only after the elimination of other possibilities--that in the early Islamic period a number of possible sanctuary sites gained adherents until finally Mecca became established as the Muslim sanctuary.


    Seems in line with Gibson's early mosque measurements (and NO, I am not saying Gibson's Thesis is true!)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4856 - October 14, 2018, 07:13 PM
    Mundi - The article is in this collection: https://goo.gl/kqXuii
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4857 - October 15, 2018, 09:02 AM
    Gabriel S Reynolds is recommending Robert Hoyland´s article about Patricia Crone´s late- carrier work on the Quran:

    "Great stuff from Robert Hoyland, reviewing the venerable Patricia Crone's (RIP) late-career work on the the Qur'an."

    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1051437532897001472
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4858 - October 15, 2018, 09:19 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: Marc S on October 14, 2018, 06:18 PM
    This was the main assumption of Nevo/Koren in Crossroads to Islam.

    I think that you had some pagans yes but I would say that their rituals became included in monotheism religions as they converted to them. Clearly the black stone in the Ka'ba today is the remain of a pagan cult around fertility.

    Quote from: Marc S on October 14, 2018, 06:20 PM
    Yes but what I am telling you is that one man could have claimed to have received a message from God in Petra without making the headlines but his story couldn't have happened in the way Muhammad story is told.



    Marc....  dear Marc tell me a faith  on this planet that does not have some cult rituals in  it .,  i will show you cult characters in its so-called scriptures  that are often used by faith heads and faith preachers to propagate it..


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4859 - October 15, 2018, 05:59 PM
    Dear Yeezevee, I am not sure about the message you are trying to convey but :

    1- the Ka'ba/black stone rituals are coming from Jewish religion

            a) Yes the Ka'ba, its kiswah reminds of the 2nd Jewish temple and the veil hanged to it ; the circumbulation around the Ka'ba is a remlinder of the circumbulation in the Hakafot ritual
            b) No the Jewish religion didn't see women rubbing themselves against a stone in order to get more fertile


    2- the Ka'ba/ black stone rituals are coming from pagan rituals

           a) Yes the black stone with its vagina look showing a newborn head popping out is a reminder of the cult to Aphrodite
           b) No, See 1
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