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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8790 - January 13, 2020, 08:02 AM
    Hi!
    David Cook wrote that there are a millennia of documentable texts that have been the sources for the Quran. Does anybody of you have an overview of these "documentable texts"?
    Other questions: Do these sources, that obviously inspired the authors of the Quran, tell us more closely where the Quran originated? Do they tell us more about what kind of person(s), the author(s) must have been?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8791 - January 13, 2020, 11:20 AM
    Hi  Asbjoern,

    Do you have a link?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8792 - January 13, 2020, 01:34 PM
    Quote from: Altara on January 13, 2020, 11:20 AM
    Hi  Asbjoern,

    Do you have a link?





    well read that image dear Altara .. David wrote more than what Asbjoern said in his post..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8793 - January 13, 2020, 02:45 PM
    Thanks Yeez. It is an interesting page. What book is it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8794 - January 13, 2020, 03:31 PM
    Quote from: Altara on January 13, 2020, 02:45 PM
    Thanks Yeez. It is an interesting page. What book is it?

    I think that is from this book



    and do not confuse David Cook with that Michael Cook of "Hagarism book"...

    here is what he says

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VQ9AvJB_k4
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8795 - January 13, 2020, 04:19 PM
    Ok thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8796 - January 13, 2020, 04:29 PM
    Quote from: Altara on January 13, 2020, 02:45 PM
    Thanks Yeez. It is an interesting page. What book is it?


    It seems to be this one: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q20wDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT78&lpg=PT78&dq=%22One+of+the+dangers+when+listing+off+the+literary+relationships+of+a+work%22&source=bl&ots=I32agbqj_-&sig=ACfU3U2SdmVghajESfC4Ya1jDP12DDr_Eg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwji-duN_4DnAhVGY8AKHX1pBRwQ6AEwAHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22One%20of%20the%20dangers%20when%20listing%20off%20the%20literary%20relationships%20of%20a%20work%22&f=false
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8797 - January 13, 2020, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: zeca on January 13, 2020, 04:29 PM
    It seems to be this one: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q20wDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT78&lpg=PT78&dq=%22One+of+the+dangers+when+listing+off+the+literary+relationships+of+a+work%22&source=bl&ots=I32agbqj_-&sig=ACfU3U2SdmVghajESfC4Ya1jDP12DDr_Eg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwji-duN_4DnAhVGY8AKHX1pBRwQ6AEwAHoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22One%20of%20the%20dangers%20when%20listing%20off%20the%20literary%20relationships%20of%20a%20work%22&f=false


    May be you are right.. Thank you zeca .. these apocalyptic and eschatological statements from every faith book of every  religion  are interesting., As far as these statements in Quran is concerned., I think they all come from OT & NT.,   
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8798 - January 13, 2020, 06:28 PM
    Thank you zeka and yeez. It is from Routledge Handbook on Early Islam.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8799 - January 13, 2020, 07:35 PM
    Orality of Quran:

    How should we imagine the process? This is my scenario:

    A troubadour  composes and performs at regular times and places (markets) parts of the Quran. The formulaic verses are attestation not of  complete memorization after careful composition, but of an instant recomposition of specific material. So this oral performance would make sense.

    At a certain time someone gets the idea to stenograph the troubadour's words and to write it on leaflets. The troubadour and scribes are locked up in a room for a couple of days and at the end a whole stash of papyrus Surahs are collected.

    Only later, after some redactions here and there, are the leaflets put together in a book on parchment: the Uthmanic archetype.

    Anyone?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8800 - January 13, 2020, 07:46 PM
    Is there any good argument for oral composition or transmission?

    If the quran was an unknown text that had recently been discovered would anyone be suggesting this?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8801 - January 13, 2020, 07:49 PM
    The purpose of the text is to make believe you that it is an oral proclamation. That is what it states more or less clearly. As usual, the text is deliberately cryptic.  It is mandatory for it to make believe that. Simply because the text would have been accused by those of (real) scribal culture to be a plagiarism. It is  a  necessary and mandatory rhetorical device. It  worked  with Arabs and many Westerners.
    One could ask MVP if and oral tradition supposed to be the way of transmission of the Quran is mandatory to get the text with dots and vowels one have today.
    He will be embarrassed because he knows very well that only the knowledge of Arabic is necessary. Nothing else.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8802 - January 13, 2020, 07:53 PM
    Quote from: zeca on January 13, 2020, 07:46 PM
    Is there any good argument for oral composition or transmission?

    If the quran was an unknown text that had recently been discovered would anyone be suggesting this?


    1/ What states about it the Quran itself. As it is God who is speaking, it has to be believed.
    2/ Of course not. But some people would be hypnotized by the text and would commencing to believe what it says, namely, that it is an oral proclamation written down afterwards.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8803 - January 13, 2020, 08:03 PM
    Why is my troubadour scenario not viable?

    How did Homer's work get transcribed? It retains the formulaic expressions from its oral faze.. or is that also an illusion?

    (I agree that the Quranic content doesnt really fit with the stand-up troubadour act... It is religiously too sophisticated for that)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8804 - January 13, 2020, 08:13 PM
    For me one cannot compare Homer or the troubadours with the Quran. I repeat... The principal basic stake of the Quran is first to make accepting by  its reader that it came orally to avoid the pitfall of plagiarism. The first thing to be believed is this. It is so important that it is obliged to undermine this topic with the informants of the "prophet" episode.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8805 - January 13, 2020, 08:13 PM
    I think the works ascribed to Homer have oral origins which, at least in part, go back long before they were written down. If there are any good arguments for oral origins of the quran then it would be interesting to hear them, but to me it’s not an obvious thing to assume for a religious text that dates, presumably, from some time between the mid 6th and 7th centuries.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8806 - January 13, 2020, 08:14 PM
    Altara,

    You say the Quran cannot be compared to Homer. But why not? The formulaic sentences were kept in Homer's work too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8807 - January 13, 2020, 08:17 PM
    Zeca,

    Quote
    I think the works ascribed to Homer have oral origins which, at least in part, go back long before they were written down.


    It really doesnt make more sense for Homer than it makes for the Quran. I think it is just fashionable to say that Homer's work was oral for centuries. Who will disprove it?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8808 - January 13, 2020, 08:20 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 13, 2020, 08:14 PM
    Altara,

    You say the Quran cannot be compared to Homer. But why not? The formulaic sentences were kept in Homer's work too.

    Homer has no stakes.
    The principal basic stake of the Quran is first to make accepting by  its reader that it came orally to avoid the pitfall of plagiarism.  The first thing to be believed is this. It is so important that it is obliged to undermine this topic with the informants of the "prophet" episode.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8809 - January 13, 2020, 08:29 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 13, 2020, 08:17 PM
    I think it is just fashionable to say that Homer's work was oral for centuries. Who will disprove it?


    Homer clearly has origins that pre-date the Greek alphabet. Whether it’s actually true that the Greeks abandoned writing for centuries before reinventing it is another question.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8810 - January 13, 2020, 08:59 PM
    Zeca,

    Quote
    Homer clearly has origins that pre-date the Greek alphabet. Whether it’s actually true that the Greeks abandoned writing for centuries before reinventing it is another question.


    So Zeca, what do you think? The Illyad is circa word for word Homer's composition?

    scenario:
    Homer recited the work a few times, a person with a perfect memory remembered it word for word. This person transmitted the work word for word to the next generation (spending A LOT of time teaching this, either the students also had perfect memory, or a lot of oral repetition was necessary with the teacher continuously present).
    After a few 100 years and maybe 20 generation of in the best case , perfect memory students, or in the realistic case, gifted students with bright memories, needing also work to remember, the Greeks come up with the idea to write it down.

    A committee of scribes is formed, the perfectly memorized Illyad is stenographed into writing, no or only limited redaction is made.

    Realistic? (in a world where writing existed already in Homer's time...)

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8811 - January 13, 2020, 09:06 PM
    I expect the Iliad was one person’s version of poems/stories with a long oral history, written down some time after the new alphabet had been adopted. The general view is that before then there was a long dark age with no writing, which is one reason for the oral origin not to be questioned. I suspect the absence of writing is actually less certain.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8812 - January 13, 2020, 09:12 PM
    Quote from: Altara on January 13, 2020, 08:13 PM
    For me one cannot compare Homer or the troubadours with the Quran.
    Quote
    I repeat... The principal basic stake of the Quran is first to make accepting by  its reader that it came orally to avoid the pitfall of plagiarism. The first thing to be believed is this

    . It is so important that it is obliged to undermine this topic with the informants of the "prophet" episode.

    And who is responsible for that dear Altara??  I mean making its(Quran) reader  that it came orally ??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8813 - January 13, 2020, 09:36 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    repeat... The principal basic stake of the Quran is first to make accepting by  its reader that it came orally to avoid the pitfall of plagiarism. The first thing to be believed is this


    I think that needs to be proven. I think that is far fetched.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8814 - January 13, 2020, 10:13 PM
    Quote
    And who is responsible for that dear Altara??  I mean making its(Quran) reader  that it came orally ??


    The authors who write down the Quranic texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8815 - January 13, 2020, 10:14 PM
    Quote
    I think that needs to be proven. I think that is far fetched.


    Maybe. But I see there the reason of the informants episode.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8816 - January 13, 2020, 10:36 PM
    Quote
    he informants episode


    What do you mean by that?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8817 - January 13, 2020, 10:43 PM
    Orality of Quran:

    Maybe the authors of the Quran meant the work to be recited and therefore applied formulaic sentences, bc that resembled the genre of oral poetry. So Altara, not to trick anyone in believing it was an oral work at the beginning, but to be performed as a recital and thus written as an oral genre.

    With all the hapaxes present in the Quran, the complex language, the sophisticated allusions to Christian and Biblical theology...it just doesnt seem to be the genre that historically has been transmitted (more or less accurately, Lord and Parry say the Slavic lore was each time recomposed) generation after generation at the market place or the camp fire,
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8818 - January 13, 2020, 10:59 PM
    A so-called orally proclaimed text coming from super natural intervention (because it is what the text induce to its readers)  must clear up the issue that it can be thought by those who read it, that the addressee of God  staged in it supposed receiving it, was not informed of what he says (in the text, the Quran) do not coming from other informants and that he just copying them. If it do not do that one way or another, it lends itself to be attacked about what he says and how it appears to its readers. Thus the Quranic informant episode is made to clear up, to demine this issue : the Quranic addressee has no informant apart God : no people recount stories to him, all is coming from God.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8819 - January 13, 2020, 11:11 PM
    Quote
    Maybe the authors of the Quran meant the work to be recited and therefore applied formulaic sentences, bc that resembled the genre of oral poetry.


    Yes, they more or less did that but to make it look like it was all about oral proclamation. Whereas it was not.
    Quote
    .not to trick anyone in believing it was an oral work at the beginning, but to be performed as a recital and thus written as an oral genre.


    I'm not agree. The Quranic texts had to be credible in the eyes of his readers ; it was necessary. It is the reason of the informant episode. The authors knew very well that some would think that there is not God there and that this addressee was informed one way or another by living people and not by God as it is pretended in the text. That is why the informant episode is made up. To deny this. I do no see other reason to the presence of this episode in the text.
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