Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #30 - December 27, 2008, 05:44 AM

Panoptic, I am extremely suspicious of any pure ideology. I infinitely prefer messy and bastardised ideologies of uncertain and disreputable origin. They are much more likely to accurately take account of the human condition.

Pure communism or pure capitalism or pure any other ism (religious, political or economic) have historically appealed to single minded fanatics of all persuasions. They are not the way to salvation. They are dangerous.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #31 - December 27, 2008, 05:58 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 27, 2008, 05:38 AM
Excuse me, which part of "I want no part of your glorious revolution" did you not understand. If we progress via evolution of society there is no need for any violence at all.

Jesus fucking Christ, here you are touting violent revolution for the greater good on the basis of a theory which has never been shown to work. You sound just like the Red Guard or any other bunch of fanatics. You really should step back and take a look at what you're posting.

Fine. You probably won't need to do much.

What I am asking now is: What kind of evolution? How fast can an "evolution" be? Because we're running out of time a bit...

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #32 - December 27, 2008, 06:00 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 27, 2008, 05:38 AM
You really should step back and take a look at what you're posting.

I'm lucid, I know exactly what I'm saying. Thought about for many years etc.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #33 - December 27, 2008, 06:02 AM

That doesn't necessarily make you correct. Worth considering about if you're going to start advocating violent overthrow of the existing order.

Oh, and what if the majority of people don't want revolution? Do they get a say in the matter or does your utopia come first?

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #34 - December 27, 2008, 06:05 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 27, 2008, 06:02 AM
Oh, and what if the majority of people don't want revolution? Do they get a say in the matter or does your utopia come first?

If the majority don't want it it won't happen.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #35 - December 27, 2008, 06:07 AM

Right. Well since it seems they don't want it we're apparently stuck with evolution anyway.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #36 - December 27, 2008, 06:09 AM

What evolution do you mean?

It's at least as vague as saying "revolution", I know, but at least I gave some meat to that bone.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #37 - December 27, 2008, 06:13 AM

I mean that people will continue slowly changing and building on what already exists, just like they have always done, rather than destroying it entirely and then having to start from scratch. Destroying things is very easy. Building it all up again is a lot more difficult.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #38 - December 27, 2008, 06:25 AM

But we are destroying things. Right now. Vastly.

The point here re:revolution is not the 'destructive' element, but the restructuring element. It's not everything wiped clean. It means take control of it all and abolish the stuff we -don't- need. Take what's neccessary and use it for our purposes.

But: without the revolution, then, what is to be done? 'Evolution' is no plan of action, which is what's neccessary, surely?

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #39 - December 27, 2008, 06:31 AM

Yes I know the theory behind revolution but let's be honest here: revolution is basically war fought on ideological grounds. This is what you are proposing. You are proposing starting a war. Right? This is serious shit.

I mean hey, if I announced one day that I wanted to start a war on the grounds of an untested ideology that sounded like a good thing to me would you think I was flippin' bonkers or what?

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #40 - December 27, 2008, 06:38 AM

"Democratic revolution? Bonkers!"

It's not war. If the majority want it, not much can be done to stop us. Real violence could be just a scuffle. The capitalists and lackeys will fold, probably offering previously unimaginable reforms, with priests harping on about the 'sanctity of life'. The reality is that there are wars taking place now and hundreds of people dieing from cureable diseases etc..

I think I am less naive than those who expect, with no substantial alteration, global society to survive in its current form.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #41 - December 27, 2008, 06:40 AM

Another point: you say if the majority don't want it then it wont happen. The converse is that if the majority do want it then revolution is unnecessary. Why? Because majority vote rules in democracies (as long as your voting bloc is organised). This means change can be achieved without violent revolution.

Either way Teh Glorious Bunfight is not looking like a goer.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #42 - December 27, 2008, 06:42 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 27, 2008, 06:40 AM
Another point: you say if the majority don;t want it then it wont happen. The converse is that if the majority do want it then revolution is unnecessary. Why? Because majority vote rules in democracies (as long as your voting bloc is organised). This means change can be achieved without violent revolution.

Either way Teh Glorious Bunfight is not looking like a goer.

Yes, we can use democratic means. It may be the state, or some elements of it, resist it anyway, though, or imposes marshall law even when the movement is still growing... which is why there won't be absolutely *no* violence.

Either way the state is usurped in some manner.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #43 - December 27, 2008, 06:44 AM

Quote from: panoptic on December 27, 2008, 06:38 AM
It's not war. If the majority want it, not much can be done to stop us.

If the majority want it they'll vote accordingly in elections.

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Real violence could be just a scuffle. The capitalists and lackeys will fold, probably offering previously unimaginable reforms, with priests harping on about the 'sanctity of life'.

You reckon?

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The reality is that there are wars taking place now and hundreds of people dieing from cureable diseases etc.

Yes but those wars are not taking place in democratic countries, or if they are being fought in a democratic country they aren't instigated by the democratically minded types.

Also people die of disease because disease is a fact of life. Changing government isn't going to change this.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #44 - December 27, 2008, 06:46 AM

Quote from: panoptic on December 27, 2008, 06:42 AM
Either way the state is usurped in some manner.

Oh, goody. And replaced with what? Don't say "the dictatorship of the proletariat" or I'll have to shoot you. I want details. How is this going to work in practice?

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #45 - December 27, 2008, 06:57 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 27, 2008, 06:44 AM
If the majority want it they'll vote accordingly in elections.

Yes, I don't rule out democratic elections. At least get the expression of majority support by means of suffrage.

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You reckon?

Sure. Well, some people disagree. Like, they reckon say Warren Buffet would sooner nuke everyone than lose his wealth or power. I don't know about that though, interesting one that...

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Yes but those wars are not taking place in democratic countries, or if they are being fought in a democratic country they aren't instigated by the democratically minded types.

Yes, most wars are fought in/against third world countries.

Do you really believe in "democratic peace"?

I don't think we'll stop wars until the proletariat combines against the capitalists.

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Also people die of disease because disease is a fact of life. Changing government isn't going to change this.

You mean preventable (or cureable) disease isn't a political issue?

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #46 - December 27, 2008, 07:33 AM

Quote from: abdalwali on December 27, 2008, 05:10 AM
Marx kept referring to Ferdinand LaSalle as a nigger in his letter to Engels. Engels himself was not averse to the use of the n-word. Even Trotsky refers to Blacks as kaffirs. Actually out of the lot of them I like Lenin the best: cool pose in them statues and I can feel that freedom, the whiff of revolution when I see his bald dome. Also the kepka is a pretty cool form of head gear.

I don't reckon Marx and Engels were racists. Most they said was quite incompatible with racism. Anyway, their 'solution' to the 'problem' was interbreeding lol. But they didn't think it was an obstacle to socialism or anything like that. It was the 19th century and people say all kindsa shit to each other privately, ykwim?

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I quite liked the Soviet Union despite the diastrous anti-Muslim ethnic cleansing policies of Stalin, the gulags where sincere communists who didn't agree with Stalin died while their families mourned the loss of a husband, a mother. I guess it reminds me of youthful idealism. I really believed there could be a utopian 'heaven on earth'. That was before I realised that I'm a misanthrope whose ideology is more akin to that of George Carlin. All praise is due to Allah (SWT).

So daily you throw yourself prostrate before god for all that you've lost in humanity? Were you born a slave? Yours is the lot of cattle!

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #47 - December 27, 2008, 07:45 AM

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I don't reckon Marx and Engels were racists. Most they said was quite incompatible with racism. Anyway, their 'solution' to the 'problem' was interbreeding lol. But they didn't think it was an obstacle to socialism or anything like that. It was the 19th century and people say all kindsa shit to each other privately, ykwim?

Exactly. That's why, according to the Sunni sect, it was alright for the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) to have sex with a 9 year old. It was OK back in the day.

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So daily you throw yourself prostrate before god for all that you've lost in humanity? Were you born a slave? Yours is the lot of cattle!

7:179 And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men - they have hearts wherewith they understand not, and they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not. They are as cattle; nay, they are more astray. These are heedless ones.

Love you

Abdalwali

The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #48 - December 27, 2008, 08:24 AM

So basically Panoptic you are a dogmatic communist with all of the anti imperialist fantasy baggage that goes with it.

So you are not only using all of the Islamist arguments you also must believe that the capitalistic West is the root of all evil. The Great Shaytan.

"Communism, anti capitalism, anti Americanism and other delusional stuff!!"

PS: I work for MI5 and my job is to try to discredit your arguments.

Osmanthus is head of Morgan Stanley and he has a swimming pool full of sharks, a gammy eye and he strokes a white cat with one sinister gloved hand.

With evil ones like us in power no wonder the people are crying out for revolution. Just open your window you can hear the hordes of downtrodden workers rising up!!!

Oh! Just birds singing outside my window.

Must be a conspiracy that keeps the proletariat from voting SWP, nothing to do with an improvement in living standards then.
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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #49 - December 27, 2008, 08:43 AM

Quote from: abdalwali on December 27, 2008, 07:45 AM
Exactly. That's why, according to the Sunni sect, it was alright for the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) to have sex with a 9 year old. It was OK back in the day.

Exactly the same thing, yeah? (Not that I care that some guy 1400 years' ago did that.) I take it you're Shia, though.

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7:179 And certainly We have created for hell many of the jinn and the men - they have hearts wherewith they understand not, and they have eyes wherewith they see not, and they have ears wherewith they hear not. They are as cattle; nay, they are more astray. These are heedless ones.

That's why religion is so anti-human, and reactionary.

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Love you

Love you too! xxx

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #50 - December 27, 2008, 08:54 AM

Quote from: brucepig on December 27, 2008, 08:24 AM
So basically Panoptic you are a dogmatic communist with all of the anti imperialist fantasy baggage that goes with it.

So you are not only using all of the Islamist arguments you also must believe that the capitalistic West is the root of all evil. The Great Shaytan.

Yes, because I said I support Islamist governments didn't I? Or was it that I'm against bombing the people who live under them?

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PS: I work for MI5 and my job is to try to discredit your arguments.

Osmanthus is head of Morgan Stanley and he has a swimming pool full of sharks, a gammy eye and he strokes a white cat with one sinister gloved hand.

With evil ones like us in power no wonder the people are crying out for revolution. Just open your window you can hear the hordes of downtrodden workers rising up!!!

Oh! Just birds singing outside my window.

Must be a conspiracy that keeps the proletariat from voting SWP, nothing to do with an improvement in living standards then.

I don't want them voting for the SWP so whatever.

I don't see you working in 'intelligence' TBH. Why don't you go join the army though? If you could actually work out which way to point a gun, that is.

Twat.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #51 - December 27, 2008, 12:54 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 27, 2008, 06:46 AM
Quote from: panoptic on December 27, 2008, 06:42 AM
Either way the state is usurped in some manner.

Oh, goody. And replaced with what?

Something like this: Disposses the class enemy and bringing their institutions into state control. Institute collective ownership. Radically decentralise state institutions. In tandem. All carried out democratically (with the exception of the capitalists until no longer neccessary).

The world is a garden; Its walls are the state. Extend the walls until everything outside the walls are part of them.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #52 - December 27, 2008, 01:20 PM

Quote from: panoptic on December 27, 2008, 12:54 PM
Quote from: osmanthus on December 27, 2008, 06:46 AM
Quote from: panoptic on December 27, 2008, 06:42 AM
Either way the state is usurped in some manner.

Oh, goody. And replaced with what?

Something like this: Disposses the class enemy and bringing their institutions into state control. Institute collective ownership. Radically decentralise state institutions. In tandem. All carried out democratically (with the exception of the capitalists until no longer neccessary).

The world is a garden; Its walls are the state. Extend the walls until everything outside the walls are part of them.

What is the end result of this system? What will this system become once it is thoroughly entrenched and its rulers are in complete control to do as they like?

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #53 - December 27, 2008, 01:28 PM

No leaders. We'll build social capital, start solving the problems like distribution of food and housing, and address environmental damage etc..

The final result is free-access to the means to live. From each according to ability; To each according to [self-determined] need. Voluntary association. Disalienation of social existence, economic activity, political activity. Decodification of law. Eventually natural law. Then onwards and upwards!

In the beginning there was... The future...

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #54 - December 27, 2008, 03:01 PM

Quote from: panoptic on December 27, 2008, 01:28 PM
No leaders.

Cut the crap perhaps I need to clarify my question.

I do not want to know what is your wish for the future of such a system. I am more interested in what you think the end-conclusion of this system will be. What will really happen. I believe you spent more time working this system in your head then most of us here. So what is your actual conclusion for this system? What will really happen. What are the risks. What are the probabilities.

i.e. Karl Marx had some vision. Adam Smith had some vision. Clearly what happens in real life did not follow the script.

So knowing that humans do not follow scripts. What do you believe will happen if we implement the changes you prescribe.

Quote from: panoptic link=topic=3877.msg103189#msg103189
In the beginning there was... The future...

And plz no polemics or religious undertones, I am very fragile when it comes to such assaults on my person..

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #55 - December 27, 2008, 03:49 PM

I don't know what you're asking. Have I left something unexplained?

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #56 - December 27, 2008, 04:07 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on December 27, 2008, 04:44 AM
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Yes every time communism has been tried it has become something other than Marx's theory, that is because the theory doesn't work.

QFT. Old engineering saying: if theory does not agree with practice then theory is wrong.

Maybe we need to start electing engineers to office.
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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #57 - December 27, 2008, 04:20 PM

Quote from: panoptic on December 27, 2008, 03:49 PM
I don't know what you're asking. Have I left something unexplained?

You gave me a theoratical conclusion that only seems possible if you are talking to simpletons or with people who are already in agreement with you.

Something about ending up with no leaders.

But I am more interested in the actual conclusion you came up to regarding your system.

"Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #58 - December 27, 2008, 04:41 PM

Quote from: Baal on December 27, 2008, 04:20 PM
You gave me a theoratical conclusion that only seems possible if you are talking to simpletons or with people who are already in agreement with you.

Something about ending up with no leaders.

But I am more interested in the actual conclusion you came up to regarding your system.

I said there will be no rulers in the first place. This is a democratic revolution in question.

My conclusion is free-access at the point of need - this is not objective it is socially-determined. So too with work which is voluntary like the rest of our associations. Which are dis-alienated - not adverserial or antagonistic. As is political activity - disputes mediated sensibly, democratic control, absence of hierarchies etc.. Note the state has already withered away. The ideal extent of this is the decodification of laws, meaning no statute books. Most neccessary regulations could apply to production and be controlled by a computer or something anyway. Natural law - maybe villages collectively own a gun, just in case. Egalitarian social-relations, the means given to all to develop and fulfill their natural powers, the freedom to do so. Utopia? At the very minimum: no-one without, or dieing in gutters. That is materially possible, the least we should expect from some kind of 'civilisation'.

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Re: Capitalism and Other Kids' Stuff
Reply #59 - December 27, 2008, 05:44 PM

Quote from: panoptic
and probably some violence, yes

Well then, I don't want to live in your bloody communist utopia, please. Can I use my democratic rights and stick with the evil capitalist system, together with the other enemies of the people?

Unconditional equality is the worst kind of oppression.

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