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 Topic: The before and after thread.

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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #30 - January 23, 2009, 09:55 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 23, 2009, 09:46 PM
    Quote from: Iggy on January 23, 2009, 09:08 PM
    learn2bcalm, I love your avatar!


    If you need a new avatar, I got the hook up ya.  I'm responsible for hooking up learn2bcalm and a few other peeps.  cool2 I'm bad. Ozonedance you know it.

    Show me whatchya got.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #31 - January 24, 2009, 02:03 AM
    Quote from: MSinghK on January 23, 2009, 09:09 PM
    Quote from: learn2bcalm on January 23, 2009, 03:38 PM
    MsinghK

    What will be the after - before thing for u?

    Sikh ---birth n+ 1-----> Sikh -----birth n+2-----> Sikh




    I dont understand what you've just written.




    some reincarnation joke perhaps?
    We are in favor of tolerance, but it is a very difficult thing to tolerate the intolerant and impossible to tolerate the intolerable.

    -George Dennison Prentice
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #32 - January 24, 2009, 05:05 AM
    Quote from: Humanoid on January 24, 2009, 02:03 AM
    Quote from: MSinghK on January 23, 2009, 09:09 PM
    Quote from: learn2bcalm on January 23, 2009, 03:38 PM
    MsinghK

    What will be the after - before thing for u?

    Sikh ---birth n+ 1-----> Sikh -----birth n+2-----> Sikh




    I dont understand what you've just written.




    some reincarnation joke perhaps?


    Thats what I assumed..


    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #33 - January 24, 2009, 10:37 AM
    Oh.......................... Hahaha........................Good one.

     Cheesy
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #34 - January 28, 2009, 07:06 AM
    Islam -> Agnosticism
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #35 - January 28, 2009, 07:46 AM
    Quote from: belladonnasix on January 21, 2009, 11:31 AM
    Concerning the members here, I have been wondering what the conversion pattern is. For example, one mightve been born into Christianity, then converted to Islam but is now Athiest. (Xian- Islam -Athiesm)

    As for myself, its: Islam(by default) - Atheism - Paganism - Pantheism 

    what about the rest of you?


    Islam to deism.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #36 - January 28, 2009, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 28, 2009, 07:46 AM
    Islam to deism.


    Is a deist a theist ?
    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #37 - January 28, 2009, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: Anti-Jihadist on January 28, 2009, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 28, 2009, 07:46 AM
    Islam to deism.


    Is a deist a theist ?


    What I mean by deist is just a belief in God - nothing else. Basically I believe there is 'something', - call it God or some sort of cosmic force - but I don't understand it or know anything about it and suspect that I will never know anything about it because I think it is unknowable - at least in this world.

    I don't know if that's the dictionary definition - but I don't want to comply with any label and only use Deist coz ppl keep asking me what I am so they can label me  grin12

    But really I'm nothing - I mean I have no fixed beliefs and really just don't know anything lol.

    I think a Theist believes in religion - so I am definitely NOT a theist.

  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #38 - January 28, 2009, 06:12 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 28, 2009, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: Anti-Jihadist on January 28, 2009, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 28, 2009, 07:46 AM
    Islam to deism.


    Is a deist a theist ?


    What I mean by deist is just a belief in God - nothing else. Basically I believe there is 'something', - call it God or some sort of cosmic force - but I don't understand it or know anything about it and suspect that I will never know anything about it because I think it is unknowable - at least in this world.

    I don't know if that's the dictionary definition - but I don't want to comply with any label and only use Deist coz ppl keep asking me what I am so they can label me  grin12

    But really I'm nothing - I mean I have no fixed beliefs and really just don't know anything lol.

    I think a Theist believes in religion - so I am definitely NOT a theist.



    A theist is someone who believes in God, so a deist is a theist (or subset of).  However as you say you believe in God, but your definition of God could be a cosmic force i.e. scientific as opposed to supernatural, then i would have thought this puts you under the agnostic umbrella?
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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #39 - January 28, 2009, 06:34 PM
    That's pretty much what i thought.
    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #40 - January 30, 2009, 03:00 AM
    Hey Hass,

    Maybe you should explore Pantheism, it is really interesting. Here's the definition of it from the wiki
    Quote
    Pantheism (Greek: πάν ( 'pan' ) = all and θεός ( 'theos' ) = God, it literally means "God is All" and "All is God") is the view that everything is part of an all-encompassing immanent abstract God; or that the Universe, or nature, and God are equivalent. More detailed definitions tend to emphasize the idea that natural law, existence, and the Universe (the sum total of all that is, was, and shall be) is represented in the theological principle of an abstract 'god' rather than a personal, creative deity or deities of any kind. This is the key feature which distinguishes them from panentheists and pandeists. As such, although many religions may claim to hold pantheistic elements, they are more commonly panentheistic or pandeistic in nature.

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #41 - January 30, 2009, 03:12 AM
    Quote from: Anti-Jihadist on January 30, 2009, 03:00 AM
    Hey Hass,

    Maybe you should explore Pantheism, it is really interesting.

    My friend's boyfriend is a pantheist although he's not aware of it. His reasoning is very flawed. He thinks that since all world religions are so similar and share many characteristics all throughout the world, it must mean that God sent his message out and that it was just interpreted differently by different people so it all must be true in some form or another. I can't get through to him. Judaism --> Christianity --> Islam.  Roll Eyes

    Am I misunderstanding this? Why would one believe God is all? On what basis?
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #42 - January 30, 2009, 03:28 AM
    "Richard Dawkins, in his book The God Delusion, has described Pantheism as ?sexed-up atheism.? That may seem flippant, but it is accurate. Of all religious or spiritual traditions, Pantheism - the approach of Einstein, Hawking and many other scientists - is the only one that passes the muster of the world's most militant atheist.

    So what's the difference between Atheism and Pantheism? As far as disbelief in supernatural beings, forces or realms, there is no difference. World Pantheism also shares the respect for evidence, science, and logic that's typical of atheism.

    However, Pantheism goes further, and adds to atheism an embracing, positive and reverential feeling about our lives on planet Earth, our place in Nature and the wider Universe, and uses nature as our basis for dealing with stress, grief and bereavement. It's a form of spirituality that is totally compatible with science. Indeed, since science is our best way of exploring the Universe, respect for the scientific method and fascination with the discoveries of science are an integral part of World Pantheism."

    Full article at http://www.pantheism.net/atheism.htm?gclid=CNv0t-i3s5gCFRwwawod6T4gVA
    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #43 - January 30, 2009, 05:18 AM
    Quote from: Anti-Jihadist on January 30, 2009, 03:00 AM
    Hey Hass,

    Maybe you should explore Pantheism, it is really interesting. Here's the definition of it from the wiki
    Quote
    Pantheism (Greek: πάν ( 'pan' ) = all and θεός ( 'theos' ) = God, it literally means "God is All" and "All is God") is the view that everything is part of an all-encompassing immanent abstract God; or that the Universe, or nature, and God are equivalent. More detailed definitions tend to emphasize the idea that natural law, existence, and the Universe (the sum total of all that is, was, and shall be) is represented in the theological principle of an abstract 'god' rather than a personal, creative deity or deities of any kind. This is the key feature which distinguishes them from panentheists and pandeists. As such, although many religions may claim to hold pantheistic elements, they are more commonly panentheistic or pandeistic in nature.



    Quote from: belladonnasix on January 21, 2009, 11:31 AM
    As for myself, its: Islam(by default) - Atheism - Paganism - Pantheism 


     Afro


    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #44 - January 30, 2009, 05:24 AM
    Quote from: Anti-Jihadist on January 30, 2009, 03:28 AM
    "Richard Dawkins, in his book The God Delusion, has described Pantheism as ?sexed-up atheism.? That may seem flippant, but it is accurate. Of all religious or spiritual traditions, Pantheism - the approach of Einstein, Hawking and many other scientists - is the only one that passes the muster of the world's most militant atheist.

    So what's the difference between Atheism and Pantheism? As far as disbelief in supernatural beings, forces or realms, there is no difference. World Pantheism also shares the respect for evidence, science, and logic that's typical of atheism.

    However, Pantheism goes further, and adds to atheism an embracing, positive and reverential feeling about our lives on planet Earth, our place in Nature and the wider Universe, and uses nature as our basis for dealing with stress, grief and bereavement. It's a form of spirituality that is totally compatible with science. Indeed, since science is our best way of exploring the Universe, respect for the scientific method and fascination with the discoveries of science are an integral part of World Pantheism."

    Full article at http://www.pantheism.net/atheism.htm?gclid=CNv0t-i3s5gCFRwwawod6T4gVA


    thats interesting, but I've never compared panthiesm to athiesm... to me, athiesm is the complete absence of belief in any cosmic or supernatural force altogether. Panthiesm, at least in my books, involves a belief in something beyond the immediate. some panthiests litteraly view this as a "God", that is equivalent to the Universe, to others it is simply a creative force. I dont quite agree with all textbook definitions of things, and maybe thats why I disagree, but I do understand how Pantheism is so closely related to the scientific view of things.


    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #45 - January 30, 2009, 05:32 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 28, 2009, 06:12 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 28, 2009, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: Anti-Jihadist on January 28, 2009, 05:38 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on January 28, 2009, 07:46 AM
    Islam to deism.


    Is a deist a theist ?


    What I mean by deist is just a belief in God - nothing else. Basically I believe there is 'something', - call it God or some sort of cosmic force - but I don't understand it or know anything about it and suspect that I will never know anything about it because I think it is unknowable - at least in this world.

    I don't know if that's the dictionary definition - but I don't want to comply with any label and only use Deist coz ppl keep asking me what I am so they can label me  grin12

    But really I'm nothing - I mean I have no fixed beliefs and really just don't know anything lol.

    I think a Theist believes in religion - so I am definitely NOT a theist.



    A theist is someone who believes in God, so a deist is a theist (or subset of).  However as you say you believe in God, but your definition of God could be a cosmic force i.e. scientific as opposed to supernatural, then i would have thought this puts you under the agnostic umbrella?


    actually, I always believed that Agnosticism was the uncertainty in the belief of anything... that agnostics neither accepted nor rcompletely ejected the idea of a God or Cosmic force...


    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #46 - January 30, 2009, 10:23 AM
    Quote from: belladonnasix on January 30, 2009, 05:32 AM

    actually, I always believed that Agnosticism was the uncertainty in the belief of anything... that agnostics neither accepted nor rcompletely ejected the idea of a God or Cosmic force...


    ? 

    Agnosticism isnt the uncertainty of anything.. just says that no-one can possibly know that God exists for a fact

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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #47 - January 31, 2009, 11:41 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 30, 2009, 10:23 AM

    Agnosticism isnt the uncertainty of anything.. just says that no-one can possibly know that God exists for a fact



    The same with atheists. They just believe that God is unlikely and that there is no proof for him so they don't believe in God.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #48 - February 01, 2009, 12:03 AM
    Atheists do not believe that God is unlikely, they believe there is no such thing as God. 

    Your definition is probably more akin to agnosticism or to be more precise atheistic agnosticism..
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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #49 - February 01, 2009, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 01, 2009, 12:03 AM
    Atheists do not believe that God is unlikely, they believe there is no such thing as God. 

    Your definition is probably more akin to agnosticism or to be more precise atheistic agnosticism..

    Okay, badly worded. Uh, have you read The God Delusion? There is a belief in god ranking thing where 1 is the "God exists" opinion and 10 is the "God doesn't exist" opinion even Dawkins, as strong an atheist as he is, puts himself at 9. That's kinda what I meant. All atheists should be nines, as absolute certainty is foolish IMO. 
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #50 - February 01, 2009, 07:54 AM
    Quote from: Iggy on February 01, 2009, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 01, 2009, 12:03 AM
    Atheists do not believe that God is unlikely, they believe there is no such thing as God. 

    Your definition is probably more akin to agnosticism or to be more precise atheistic agnosticism..

    Okay, badly worded. Uh, have you read The God Delusion? There is a belief in god ranking thing where 1 is the "God exists" opinion and 10 is the "God doesn't exist" opinion even Dawkins, as strong an atheist as he is, puts himself at 9. That's kinda what I meant. All atheists should be nines, as absolute certainty is foolish IMO. 


    I would contest that, though I am not an athiest I know quite a few people who are convinced that God does not exist and I dont really how that is foolish, because in that respect ANY certain belief would be foolish.


    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #51 - February 01, 2009, 12:02 PM
    I agree.  There are many people who feel there is definitiely no God, in the same way that ghosts & ghouls do not exist.

    I dont know what Dawkins definition of atheism is, but if he gives himself a 9/10 or 90% for belief in God, then according to what you say Dawkins is himself an agnostic?  He is of course an atheist last time I heard?
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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #52 - February 01, 2009, 12:42 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 01, 2009, 12:02 PM
    I agree.  There are many people who feel there is definitiely no God, in the same way that ghosts & ghouls do not exist.

    I dont know what Dawkins definition of atheism is, but if he gives himself a 9/10 or 90% for belief in God, then according to what you say Dawkins is himself an agnostic?  He is of course an atheist last time I heard?

    =========

    i think 9 = 9/10 atheist..(altho i recall him saying the scale is 1 thru 7, not thru 10).

    In the book, he states clearly that he's agnostic about God, take a look @ my siggy;

    he even said that on a Canadian show.
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #53 - February 01, 2009, 03:20 PM
    Quote from: belladonnasix on February 01, 2009, 07:54 AM
    Quote from: Iggy on February 01, 2009, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 01, 2009, 12:03 AM
    Atheists do not believe that God is unlikely, they believe there is no such thing as God. 

    Your definition is probably more akin to agnosticism or to be more precise atheistic agnosticism..

    Okay, badly worded. Uh, have you read The God Delusion? There is a belief in god ranking thing where 1 is the "God exists" opinion and 10 is the "God doesn't exist" opinion even Dawkins, as strong an atheist as he is, puts himself at 9. That's kinda what I meant. All atheists should be nines, as absolute certainty is foolish IMO. 


    I would contest that, though I am not an athiest I know quite a few people who are convinced that God does not exist and I dont really how that is foolish, because in that respect ANY certain belief would be foolish.


    I certainly wouldn't say ANY certain belief is foolish.

    But personally, I would never say I was 100% certain of anything related to supernatural beliefs.
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #54 - February 01, 2009, 08:16 PM
    Quote from: Emerald on February 01, 2009, 12:42 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 01, 2009, 12:02 PM
    ...he states clearly that he's agnostic about God..


    I have never quite understood this phrase "agnostic about God" 

    Does this mean the same as agnostic? What else can you be agnostic about?

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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #55 - February 01, 2009, 10:33 PM
    Although I feel there is no God I don't know how I would prove that. How could I prove it? I would never be able to really disprove that orange elephants live on the moon but I know they don't. That's kinda of how I feel about god. I believe he doesn't exist,  but just as I can't disprove the elephants, I can't disprove him.

    Here is the scale (Emerald was right, it's up to 7) :


    1.00: Strong theist. 100 percent possibility of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, 'I do not believe, I know.'

    2.00: Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there

    3.00: Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. 'I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.'

    4.00: Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. 'God's existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.'

    5.00: Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. 'I don't know whether God exists but I'm inclined to be sceptical.'

    6.00: Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. 'I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.'

    7:00: Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung 'knows' there is one.'


    Dawkins puts himself at a very strong 6 almost 7.  Probably 6.99 on the simple fact that he can not really disprove god. So I wouldn't call him an agnostic.
    "Poor human nature, what horrible crimes have been committed in thy name!"
    - Emma Goldman
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #56 - February 01, 2009, 10:51 PM
    According to oxford English dictionary, atheism is the belief that God does not exist. Theism is the belief that he does, and agnosticism is somewhere between the 2.   

    At face value, this scale appears to contradict the defintion of atheism. Did Dawkins invent this scale, or is it from another source? 

    The question I have is when does an agnostic become an atheist as it doesnt seem to explain it. 

    Also does anyone know the answer to my previous question?
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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #57 - February 01, 2009, 10:58 PM
    I assume the position of Dawkins et al is much the same as mine. I call myself atheist in general conversation but if you want to get technical I'll go with agnostic.

    The reason is that although I don't go for a certain belief that deities do not exist I regard them as highly improbable, and I certainly see no evidence whatsoever that would encourage belief in their existence. 

    What this means is that I have no way of living according to the whims of said hypothetical deities, so for all practical purposes it reduces to atheism.

    IOW, I am a technical agnostic but a practical atheist. The shorthand version is "atheist".
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #58 - February 01, 2009, 11:45 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on February 01, 2009, 10:58 PM
    What this means is that I have no way of living according to the whims of said hypothetical deities, so for all practical purposes it reduces to atheism.


    I sometimes feel, that some people call themselves atheist just to distance themselves on the other side of the equation from theists, almost as a knee jerk reaction. 

    There are many theists that exist and live their lives as they wish to, free of infliuence from God or religion.  But that does that make them atheists?

    I also believe there is no evidence for a God.  However I still follow the theory that if I try my best to be a good person in this life, then not only will I feel better and get the benefits in this life, but if there is something, whatever that is, and will not work against me either. 

    In this respect I am not completely acting like God does not exist - does that make me an agnostic or atheist?
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  • Re: The before and after thread.
     Reply #59 - February 02, 2009, 03:10 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 01, 2009, 10:51 PM
    According to oxford English dictionary, atheism is the belief that God does not exist. Theism is the belief that he does, and agnosticism is somewhere between the 2.   

    At face value, this scale appears to contradict the defintion of atheism. Did Dawkins invent this scale, or is it from another source? 

    The question I have is when does an agnostic become an atheist as it doesnt seem to explain it. 

    Also does anyone know the answer to my previous question?

    An agnostic does not feel we can know either way and their position is 50/50. An atheist tends to be some one with a lack of belief in God but will believe if they saw evidence.

    In response to what you are, I would probably say you are generally an atheist (probably 5 or 6 out of 7 from Dawkin's scale). However if the Abrahamic God turns out to be real he will throw you in hellfire for not believing in him, he couldn't give a toss how nice you are Tongue
    ~My story~
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