Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #30 - February 02, 2009, 08:49 PM

I'm reading the quraan. Leave me alone.
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #31 - February 02, 2009, 08:50 PM

Chicken.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #32 - February 02, 2009, 08:51 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 02, 2009, 08:44 PM
Oh and Shaneeqa, if you wish to use the old "even creationists believe in micro-evolution" dodge then please explain the barrier between that and macro-evolution.

I don't mean baldly assert that there is a barrier. I mean explain how it works. Surely you are aware that what you call macro-evolution is simply the accumulation of "micro" changes.

Good point!

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #33 - February 02, 2009, 08:55 PM

So, both Theoretical and Applied Sciences belong on the school curriculum.
Creationism does not as it's not even a theory, it's just belief and therefore part of religion - which does not belong on the school curriculum.

Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #34 - February 02, 2009, 09:01 PM

Do the majority of primary schools in Britain still carry out the Lords prayer during assembly?

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #35 - February 02, 2009, 09:02 PM

I'm off. There's another prog in the Darwin series on BEEB 4 NOW, 9 pm.

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #36 - February 02, 2009, 09:05 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on February 02, 2009, 08:50 PM
Chicken.

No. It's a parrot.
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #37 - February 02, 2009, 10:13 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 02, 2009, 09:01 PM
Do the majority of primary schools in Britain still carry out the Lords prayer during assembly?

They say it at my children's Primary School which is a Church of England School. They also have regular prayers led by the local vicar. They teach Christianity from a believing perspective as most of the teachers are practising Christians (but never in a pushy or my god is the best - way) and my 7 year old daughter loves baby Jesus because he's so cute lol. Yet at the same time they teach about other faiths as valid ways and certainly don't teach all the fundamentalist crap or Creationism etc...

They just concentrate on the nice things and stress the things all religions have in common and take the kids to church for Harvest Festival to thank God for the food we have and collect clothes for the children in Iraq and have a non-uniform day for Oxfam etc...

I have no problem with that sort of faith school.

In fact I have no problem with that sort of religion.

It is the "I'm right your wrong - go to hell!" type of religion of the fundamentalists - whether they be Muslim fundamentalists or Christian fundamentalists.
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #38 - February 03, 2009, 04:57 AM

This is rather interesting.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBXHtQDxOo
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #39 - February 03, 2009, 07:20 AM

I'm curious, can any of us honestly say that we're completely free from the "us vs. them" mentality and don't teach anything of that sort to kids, whether they're our own kids(for parents) or kids' we spend time with?

Even as atheists or secularists, we do have that mentality, and somewhere there is a lack of appreciation for those who're different. I find myself far more critical of say Sparky's views than Islame or Hassan's. My grandmother for all her supposed tolerance of different faiths and her feminism was pretty intolerant of niqabi women, men and women who gave different inheritances to their sons' and daughters' etc.

As far as faith schools are concerned, I'm all for freedom of religion. Children inherit more than their biological traits from their parents, parents also hope to transmit their values, beliefs and ethics to their kids.If the child rejects those values, be they religious or otherwise, any parent is upset.That doesn't give parents the right to honor kill or disown their kids, but surely a parent can try to instill their beliefs in their kids? How many of you would be delighted if your daughter\hypothetical daughter began wearing a niqab? If faith schools are doing a good job in providing secular education as well as teaching particular religious beliefs, whats' the harm?

Of course, your right to freedom of religion stops the moment they infringe on someone else's right, promote violence or begin to blatantly contradict scientific evidence. Creationism in schools', jihad\incitement to attack Iraq in schools, everything big daddy in the sky dictated in my Holy Book should be the law of the land etc attitudes must stop.

If a noted ballerina started a school where dance lessons are compulsory and a kid with two left feet feels left out, there wouldn't be any brouhaha over that. As far as I know, certain madrassas do preach jihad and suicide bombing, some fundie Christian schools and Jewish, while certainly not churning out any suicide bombers for the Lord, do preach a terible us vs. them attitude as well as rubbish theories in the name of science. But the kind of Anglican school Hass described is harmless. The teachers seem to be doing a damn good job at education, multiculturalism as well as encouragement to do charitable works. If they do teach Christianity from a believers perspective, well let them.

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #40 - February 03, 2009, 09:56 AM

I understand what you are saying but secularlism does not impose any views, or schools of thought on a child. Christian schools, however innocent, still do this in their own subtle way.

My 5 yr old came back from school saying "Daddy, Daddy how is thunder made". I was impressed with is inquisitiveness, and was about to launch onto an explanation of electrostatic friction. He cut me short and said no Daddy you're wrong, God made it.

I didnt know what to say, and dont feel it was fair to have been put in this position. Or telling children there is hell, or that Jesus had nails inserted into his hands on the cross. I just think it may densensitize kids at an early age . It exaggerates their fear of the supernatural as well as many other issues, such as the innate belief that God will always look after them (which he doesn't). Also kids who have not been taught these belief systems at home are left feeling confused, awkward and different. Their parents are forced to tell their kids their teachers are wrong, which also cannot be healthy.

Teaching children about Atheism, Islam or Christianity is something parents should do behind closed doors, leaving children free to decide which path they want to chose in the long run.

As far as I am aware, the real issue is that the Church is historically so ingrained into our school systems, and provide many volountary services that it would be difficult for a government intervene & release their grip without huge cost implications as a result?

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #41 - February 03, 2009, 10:23 AM

Quote from: IsLame on February 03, 2009, 09:56 AM
, and was about to launch on an explanation of electrostatic friction. He cut me short and said no Daddy you're wrong, God made it.

Not surprised! My kids would throw eggs at me if I started up about elctro-static friction

Ha Ha.
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #42 - February 03, 2009, 11:56 AM

Quote from: Rashna on February 03, 2009, 07:20 AM
I'm curious, can any of us honestly say that we're completely free from the "us vs. them" mentality and don't teach anything of that sort to kids, whether they're our own kids(for parents) or kids' we spend time with?

You are quite right. We all have our perspective and we cannot help but influence those around us, even if we only do it passively.

I guess it's the degree that it is done and the conviction that one has divine support/truth on one's side that makes religion the worse culprit.

I know that as a Muslim I was very concerned that my children followed Islam and believed in Islam and I tried actively to steer them towards it and away from all those 'false and dangerous' beliefs.

Without doubt I now express my views, but I have nothing like the same impetus to steer them to my views and away from religion.

The difference is really quite big.
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #43 - February 03, 2009, 12:10 PM

Quote from: Rashna on February 03, 2009, 07:20 AM
If they do teach Christianity from a believers perspective, well let them.

Lets take this hypohesis: Say I was a teacher of your children, and happened to be a fire-worshipper. I believed "fire" was God, and provided I gave your children a good education, would you be happy for me to preach this belief to your kids?

I hope schools are there to teach facts, and not impose a group of individuals supernatural worldview on the young & innocent?

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #44 - February 03, 2009, 12:50 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 03, 2009, 12:10 PM
Quote from: Rashna on February 03, 2009, 07:20 AM
If they do teach Christianity from a believers perspective, well let them.

Lets take this hypohesis: Say I was a teacher of your children, and happened to be a fire-worshipper. I believed "fire" was God, and provided I gave your children a good education, would you be happy for me to preach this belief to your kids?

I hope schools are there to teach facts, and not impose a group of individuals supernatural worldview on the young & innocent?

Funny how you came up with "fire worshipper"- Zoroastrians are fire worshippers, and although my father doesn't really believe that fire is God (from what I know) he feels that I should remain a fire worshipper, marry another fire worshipper and make fire worshipper kids to keep up Zoroastrian numbers. My maternal grandfather of course has tried to talk me and my brother into worshipping Allah, and regard the Koran as God's word.

I do agree that in an ideal world schools are strictly for teaching facts,indocrination of children into supernatural beliefs should be left to the parents and guardians.Maybe even some restrictions should be put on that. Sadly, sometimes religious schools happen to be the only ones around, or the best one around. The Catholic Schools worldwide produce some of the best results. I don't think that there should be state funding for faith schools, state funding should be only for all tolerant, all inclusive non denominational ones but if there was a really fantastic religious school which gave my hypothetical kids great education, taught them scientific facts and at least a moderate amount of respect for all faiths and different worldviews, I'd grudgingly tolerate the teaching of superstitious stuff.

So yes if you were a fire worshipping teacher who manages to teach my kids splendidly, I'd tolerate your idiosyncracies, and actively tell them at home that your particular belief about God has no basis in fact. Of course, I'd still search for an equally good teacher who strictly teaches facts.

Since faith schools often get such good results, and since quite a few aren't particularly fanatic ones, I'm not sure we'd be able to replace them all with equally good secular schools after we banned them.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #45 - February 03, 2009, 01:40 PM

Perhaps I chose a bad example with fire, but you get my point nonetheless. Fire, stone, mud, invisible spirits in the sky, whatever it is, as far as I am concerned they amount to the same thing.

I take your point that you would send your kids to the best schools, many would do the same in your position.

In my part of the world, it just so happens that the worst schools are the catholic ones, and the best ones in fact are the secular ones. So much so, that the secular one is 4 times oversubscribed and my son could not get in, and the catholic one seems to always have places.

If the best school happens to be a catholic one, then that is a difficult choice you are faced to make and that would not happen if they were all secular! In particular as people of all faiths & denominations are paying taxes towards them.

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #46 - February 03, 2009, 01:57 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 03, 2009, 12:10 PM
Quote from: Rashna on February 03, 2009, 07:20 AM
If they do teach Christianity from a believers perspective, well let them.

Lets take this hypohesis: Say I was a teacher of your children, and happened to be a fire-worshipper. I believed "fire" was God, and provided I gave your children a good education, would you be happy for me to preach this belief to your kids?

Why not? My kids would find it funny. It's what you teach them, not a school. If I was a fire worshipper, that would be different. Kids arent that stupid as tp follow what teacher says. If they are, they will beieve silly stuff anyway. The classroom is a microcosm of the outside world.

Ha Ha.
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #47 - February 03, 2009, 02:12 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on February 03, 2009, 01:57 PM
Quote from: IsLame on February 03, 2009, 12:10 PM
Quote from: Rashna on February 03, 2009, 07:20 AM
If they do teach Christianity from a believers perspective, well let them.

Lets take this hypohesis: Say I was a teacher of your children, and happened to be a fire-worshipper. I believed "fire" was God, and provided I gave your children a good education, would you be happy for me to preach this belief to your kids?

Why not? My kids would find it funny. It's what you teach them, not a school. If I was a fire worshipper, that would be different. Kids arent that stupid as tp follow what teacher says. If they are, they will beieve silly stuff anyway. The classroom is a microcosm of the outside world.

There is a difference. In the outside world we choose who we wish to follow and act as our mentors. In school this is forced upon them, and they are even more succeptible as they are young & naive.

Quote from: Jack Torrance on February 03, 2009, 01:57 PM
Kids arent that stupid as to follow what teacher says

It depends what age children you are talking about. Younger children are unable to distinguish between fact & fiction, and assume everything taught by teachers is true (and rightly so). This could even partly account for some people's belief in God being unshakable, despite accepting that logically it might not be true. This may be due to having been conditioned to believe in it from such an early age.

Sadly we will not know the answers to such questions and what else religion could be accountable for, at least until we have had a generation of school children brought up in secular schools.

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #48 - February 03, 2009, 02:18 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 03, 2009, 02:12 PM
Young children are unable to distinguish between fact & fiction, and assume everything taught by teachers is true (and rightly so).

Again, not in my experience. Do you feel your kids are that susceptible?

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #49 - February 03, 2009, 02:31 PM

Well yes, because he is only 5, and I dont feel it is necessary to explain anything about religion at this young age. However without any other point of view, he has already adopted a mental frame of the world with God at its centre?

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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #50 - February 03, 2009, 04:08 PM

Quote from: Jack Torrance on February 03, 2009, 01:57 PM
Kids arent that stupid as tp follow what teacher says.

They may not be stupid, but many are extremely susceptible to being influenced, particularly when they are young and particularly if they really like and admire a teacher. I remember from my days at Islamia that children sometimes contradicted their parents, saying "But Teacher Hassan said..." It was obvious they were deeply influenced. I have since had children who are now teenagers/early twenties repeating to me word-for-word things I said to them ten or more years ago - which I find quite scary.
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #51 - February 03, 2009, 06:04 PM

Quote from: IsLame on February 03, 2009, 02:31 PM
Well yes, because he is only 5, and I dont feel it is necessary to explain anything about religion at this young age. However without any other point of view, he has already adopted a mental frame of the world with God at its centre?

Don't worry, maybe it'll be as the Bible says, "When I was a child I thought as a child, but when I grew up, I put away childish things," and his world view will cease to have God at its centre. I think atheism is rare among kids, just like its rare amongst ancient people or very poor uneducated people. Kids even the smartest kids easily believe in supernatural stuff maybe his belief in God will go away like the belief in Santa and the Tooth Fairy.

Hassan I know what you mean, I really admire many of my teachers' and even if I don't accept everything they say as the Gospel truth, they do shape my worldview. But kids' can't be locked up at home forever, maybe they'll meet some Evangelist with very persuasive arguments when they grow up and accept a faith or maybe they'll read books by atheists like Dawkins' and abandon their faith. Hell, maybe they'' even fall in love with someone and convert to that particular faith. Even as a boarding school kid, I realise my parents have shaped more of my beliefs' than any teacher could.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Faith Schools Debate with Richard Dawkins and Maryam Namazie
Reply #52 - February 03, 2009, 11:14 PM

Moderate or not , faith schools promote divisiveness . I believe the sectarian attitudes that still linger in Ireland , and to a lesser degree Scotland , largely stem from the fact that children are sent to separate schools and can end up seeing each other as virtual aliens . And that's with people who actually believe in the same brand of supernatural entity in the sky ....
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