Skynightblaze's argument that there is a contradiction between verses 2.256 and 2.193 (and osmanthus' support of this position in his interjectory post) is fully based on the interpretation that the Godly command for Muslims to fight their oppressors until "there prevail justice and faith in Allah" means to fight them until they (the oppressors) accept faith in Allah, or Islam.
The skewed interpretation of verses in the Holy Quran and the pursuant deduction of false hypotheses (in this case the existence of contradiction) is a common theme among those who wish to find support for their subjective views. It is an intellectual sin committed by extremists like Al Qaeda and rejectionists like most of the folks in this Council.
Ofcourse this is not a skewed interpretation .You are the one who is trying tricks here with your skewed interpretation.Your islamic history is a further proof of what I say. IF anyone understands islam better its Osama and the terrorists. I will gladly destroy your misconceptions of islam being a religion of peace.The intellectual sin is committed by peace loving and moderate muslims like you but not by terrorists as they are the ones who are rightly emulating muhhamad. Muhhamad was the first muslim terrorist. We shall see how.
Let's take a closer look at the quoted verse 2.193:
And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.
For starters, the verse is mistranslated. Skynightblaze conveniently quoted Yusuf Ali's mistranslation of the arabic word 'deen' to mean 'faith', while it actually means 'religion' (as known to those who speak both languages and as is correctly translated by the other common English translators Pickthal, Sarwar and Shakir among others). Faith is English for Eeman, which is not the word in the verse.
What the verse actually translates to, word for word is:
And fight them until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and the religion be for Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.
If you wish, we can interpret the meaning of "and the religion be for Allah" to be "and Allah's religion prevail". So we have:
And fight them until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and Allah's religion prevail. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression.
How is the word 'religion' different from 'faith'? While a person's Faith usually refers to a particular formal doctrine (Islam, Judaism, etc), the term religion particularly in the Arabic language, means Outlook, Paradigm, or Way, without necessarily implying any particular Faith. This distinction is demonstrated in verses 109:001-006 of the Holy Quran:
"Say: "O disbelievers!
I do not worship what you worship,
Nor do you worship what I worship. ...
Unto you your religion (way), and unto me my religion (way)." 109:001 - 006
Religion of Allah is only Islam so please stop playing arabic word games here.What is Allah's outlook,paradigm or way? If it can be other religions or if free thinking is allowed then please explain why the following verses say exactly the opposite.
3.85.
If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah., never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). IF anyone is allowed to worship whatever he wants then why does Allah say it wouldnt be accepted of him and only Islam is accepted? See outlook ,paradigm or a way of Allah is only Islam. So you fail miserably here .
9.29.
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Why does Allah ask you to fight people until they believe in Allah if there is no compulsion , free choice blah blah as you tried to tell us? IS this free will or choice as per you? You fail again!!
Btw the verse you brought up is a meccan verse where Muhhamad had no followers where he acted peacefully. AS soon as he started getting followers he changed a from a peace loving person to a violence loving beast in Medina.
Finally let us see what Ibn Kathir said about the verse 2:193 and whether it talks about allowing people to worship whatever they want as you proudly claim.
Allah then commanded fighting the disbelievers when He said:
(...until there is no more Fitnah) meaning, Shirk. This is the opinion of Ibn `Abbas, Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, Ar-Rabi`, Muqatil bin Hayyan, As-Suddi and Zayd bin Aslam.
Allah's statement:
(...and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone).) means, `So that the religion of Allah becomes dominant above all other religions.' It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari said: "The Prophet was asked, `O Allah's Messenger! A man fights out of bravery, and another fights to show off, which of them fights in the cause of Allah' The Prophet said:
(He who fights so that Allah's Word is superior, then he fights in Allah's cause.) In addition, it is reported in the Two Sahihs:
(I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people until they proclaim, `None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. Whoever said it, then he will save his life and property from me, except for cases of the law, and their account will be with Allah.)
Ibn Kathir clearly explains that muslims are supposed to fight until the islam dominates over all the religions.I hope you agree with me that fighting them so that islam becomes dominant implies forced conversion.
Lets see some of the hadiths that tell you to force your religion on others by fighting .
Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 3, Number 125:
Narrated Abu Musa:
A man came to the Prophet and asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What kind of fighting is in Allah's cause? (I ask this), for some of us fight because of being enraged and angry and some for the sake of his pride and haughtiness." The Prophet raised his head (as the questioner was standing) and said, "He who fights so that Allah's Word (Islam) should be superior, then he fights in Allah's cause." [/color]
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 65:
Narrated Abu Musa:
A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." If there is free will and choice in islam then why does Allah ask you to fight till his word becomes superior? Please do not come up with bullshit arguments that this fighting is not physical. There is a seperate chapter in bukhari regarding Jihad and it can be seen from that it was talking of wars and physical fighting and anyone who has read that chapter will laugh at such statements.
So what is 'Allah's religion' or Way that we are ordered to fight the oppressors until it prevail? This Way is explained in the verses preceding 2.193 and in verse 2.256, which rather than being contradictory to verse 2.193 as Skynightblaze wrongly claims actually compliments and explains it:
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
The order is hence to fight the oppressors until Allah's Way of non-compulsion and Free Choice prevail and people may freely choose their faiths, whatever they may be. This is further confirmed by the second half of 2.193 which commands that hostility be used only against those who oppress others (by robbing them of their right to choose).
I have proved above that 2:193 also contains a command to fight those who disbelieve in islam and it doesnt just contain the command to fight your oppressors. It is infact saying exactly the opposite of what you are trying to tell.SO we have a lot of verses contradicting each other . 2:193,8:39 ,9:29 completely contradict 2:256 and chapter 109 and 60:08-09.From above it can be seen that there is no choice or free will for one.
This is quite the opposite of the false claim that God orders the forcing of people to change their faiths! This claim not only contradicts the straightforward linguistic interpretation of the verses, it is also a flagrant denial of the true history of Islamic warfare. Throughout their history, Muslims never forcefully converted their adversaries, but rather spread the freedom of faith where previously it did not exist (e.g. in Egypt where the occupying Romans had persecuted the Egyptian Copts, and Muslims liberated them from this oppression). The thriving non-Muslim minorities all over the Muslim world are irrefutable evidence of Islam's sanctification of the right not only to choose, but to practice and to differ.
MAte are you sure you are talking about islamic history ? Was that a joke that it didnt spread without violence?
Let us see some quotes from islamic history to find out whether you are lying or not.I am just quoting what Muhhamad did and I havent even touched the islamic conquests after Muhhamad.see for yourself how muslims of those times behaved.
Tabari VII:149
"I went into a cave with my bow and arrows. While I was in it, a one-eyed man from the Banu Bakr came in driving some sheep. He said, 'Who's there?' I said [lied], 'I'm a Banu Bakr.' 'So am I.' Then he laid down next to me, and raised his voice in song: 'I will not believe in the faith of the Muslims.' I said, 'You will soon see!' Before long the Bedouin went to sleep and started snoring. So I killed him in the most dreadful way that anybody has ever killed. I leant over him, struck the end of my bow into his good eye, and thrust it down until it came out the back of his neck. After that I rushed out like a wild beast and took flight. I came to the village of Naqi and recognized two Meccan spies. I called for them to surrender. They said no so I shot and arrow and killed one, and then I tied the other up and took him to Muhammad."Ishaq:369
"Thereupon Mas'ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim's brother complained, saying, 'Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.' Mas'ud answered, 'By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.' Wherein the brother said, 'Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!' And he accepted Islam."Sahih Muslim Book 001, Number 0033:
It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.See the self confession here from your shameless terrorist prophet.!!
Do you want more stuff to see how islam adopted forced conversion? This is what your terrorist prophet did and also one should not to forget what the caliphs following Muhhamad did.I can feed you dose of your prophets filthy deeds till you nauseate.
The animosity of Muslims to non-Muslims is reserved for those who oppress them:
"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of your religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity.
It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of your religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zalimun (wrong-doers those who disobey Allah)." 060:008-9
An animosity that ceases to exist as soon as it's causes cease, as explained in 2.193. Any other claim is false and usually an attempt by its propagator to twist the meanings of verses and quote them out of context.
ITs not just fighting those who fight here again . There is something in addition to that . What does fighting on account of religion mean here? LEts see what it means
60.2.
If they were to get the better of you, they would behave to you as enemies, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you for evil: and they desire that ye should reject the Truth. The verse 60:2 clearly indicates the context of chapter 60 . IT says if they slay their hands and tongues you are supposed to fight them. It also implies fighting against those who criticize your religion.
9.12.
But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrainedThe reference to "THEIR TONGUES" clearly refers to those who fight you and those who criticize your religion . AS per quran one of the reasons why believers must fight here is criticism against their religion. SO Ideally I am criticizing your religion so you must be fighting me. Islamic history has plenty of proof where muhhamad had his critics killed just for the sake of criticising his religion and him. IF you want I will be more than happy to clear the false image of your fake prophet from your mind by quoting variety of examples. Anyway these verses also contradict the verses 2:193,9:29,8:39.Quran is a jackpot of contradictions you know .!!
While the objective reader often stands in awe at how such straightforward and clear meanings can be so overlooked in order to support a flawed understanding, one can only reflect on the Almighty's accurate description of the scene:
"It is God who has revealed the Book to you in which some verses are clear statements (which accept no interpretation) and these are the fundamental ideas of the Book, while other verses may have several possibilities. Those whose hearts are perverse, follow the unclear statements in pursuit of their own mischievous goals by interpreting them in a way that will suit their own purpose. No one knows its true interpretations except God and those who have a firm grounding in knowledge. They say, "We believe in it. All its verses are from our Lord." No one can grasp this fact except the people of reason." 003:007
For the people of reason, observing how people that have been gifted with intelligence (like some of the participants in this forum) can skip reason in favor of a devious interpretation is evidence of the existence of a greater evil swaying their judgements. It reminds me of the film "The Exorcist" where a priest losing his faith in God regains it through observing firsthand the existence of evil. Maybe good will come out of it, and some objective observer of this panel will regain a shaken faith by seeing how weak the arguments presented against the Way of God are.
There are no contradictions in the Holy Quran, nor anything in Islam that clashes with the pure intellect or uncontaminated self.
"In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Master of the Day of Judgment,
You alone we worship; You alone we ask for help.
Guide us on the straight path,
the path of those whom You blessed; not of those who have deserved wrath, nor of the strayers."
001:001-7
The meanings are clear to anyone who read the verse. The verse itself is self explanatory but if someone wants to learn how to distort the meaning then you are a perfect example of it.Btw I always come across this claim from muslims about 3:7. Please put here a list of clear and allegorical verses from the quran for the benefit of kafirs so that they understand your fake religion better. Quran must have given you believers a list so please bring it forward.
Btw I have another question for you regarding 3:7 . IT says that none except Allah knows its meaning. May I ask what the statements that only Allah understands are doing in a book that is addressed to mankind? I hope Allah knew that he was writing a book for mankind and not himself. How can you believe in this stupidity?
Topic: Comments thread for: BMZ vs Skynightblaze on "Contradictions" in Qur'aan