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 Topic: B4 BB!

 (Read 20737 times)
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  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #60 - July 08, 2009, 07:45 AM

    In this context I assume by space Tlaloc means the same thing as matter, something that we could technically fly a plane in, and not the vacuum/ virtual matter.   

    That aint space then. Eesh, we gotta keep the terms clear or this sort of thread will go bonkers.  Cheesy

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #61 - July 08, 2009, 07:48 AM

    So which matter is expanding exactly?

    Technically it isn't the matter as such that is expanding. Atoms stay the same size, for instance. What is expanding is the volume that contains the matter.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #62 - July 08, 2009, 08:49 AM

    Includes it. Has too, because the virtual matter pops in an out of existence all the time in this universe. Basically, this universe runs on quantum mechanics and virtual particles are a manifestation of quantum mechanics so we get lots of them.  Smiley

    OK, now you have confused me.  How can the universe include these virtual particles and be infinite, when it is purported to be flat (NASA link given earlier)?

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  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #63 - July 08, 2009, 08:50 AM

    Does anyone know if the universe includes, or excludes, this virtual matter or does it depend on which definition of the universe you take?

    Oh now I understand what you mean. Virtual matter are just particles that pop in and out of existence, they exist everywhere. This wiki article explains what they are - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

    As a side not there is a chance that everything (even 'real' matter) is just virtual matter if we discover the higgs boson, see NS article here-
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16095-its-confirmed-matter-is-merely-vacuum-fluctuations.html
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #64 - August 12, 2009, 05:35 PM

    If the universe is not infinite, whats it expaning into i.e. what is on the outside of the universe?


     There is nothing outside of space; Hawking and other physicists usually use the example of a balloon. Imagine that we are dots on an uninflated balloon and someone is blowing into it. Space and time are the fabric of the balloon. But as with all analogies, this one has a bit of a problem - there is space for the balloon to expand into, whereas not for the universe. In the universe space ITSELF is expanding.
    What is outside the universe is a bit like saying "what is north of the north pole?"

    It hurts to think about it, kinda like when you try to imagine Nth dimensional hypercubes in 3 dimensions. We can do the math, but actually imaging it is a bit boggling.  Wink

    Maliki yawm ul LULZ
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #65 - August 12, 2009, 06:40 PM

    Quote
    There is nothing outside of space; Hawking and other physicists usually use the example of a balloon. Imagine that we are dots on an uninflated balloon and someone is blowing into it. Space and time are the fabric of the balloon. But as with all analogies, this one has a bit of a problem - there is space for the balloon to expand into, whereas not for the universe. In the universe space ITSELF is expanding.


    Fascinating! Although it gave me headache just to think about it! sloshed

    ...
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #66 - August 15, 2009, 03:53 AM

    Rumour has it that Hawking was able to do his research so well because he could imagine all this in his head and do the math all in his head. He can't write anything down so he taught himself to do it all mentally. What a genius.

    Maliki yawm ul LULZ
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #67 - August 17, 2009, 10:43 PM

    There is nothing outside of space; Hawking and other physicists usually use the example of a balloon. Imagine that we are dots on an uninflated balloon and someone is blowing into it. Space and time are the fabric of the balloon. But as with all analogies, this one has a bit of a problem - there is space for the balloon to expand into, whereas not for the universe. In the universe space ITSELF is expanding.
    What is outside the universe is a bit like saying "what is north of the north pole?"

    It hurts to think about it, kinda like when you try to imagine Nth dimensional hypercubes in 3 dimensions. We can do the math, but actually imaging it is a bit boggling.  Wink

    I thought they meant the visible universe was expanding? (As in matter)
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #68 - August 18, 2009, 04:46 AM

    I am a layman when it comes to this, for some info you can check out this site:

    http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274

    Cornell can be trusted Cheesy.

    Maliki yawm ul LULZ
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #69 - August 18, 2009, 06:20 AM

    Oh boy this subject is not an easy one for sure. I am glad I did not have to do any exams on BB and before that.

    I know that time as a dimension was created after the big bang, but what the heck there was before that? Huh?

    ...
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #70 - August 18, 2009, 08:06 AM

    nothing

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  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #71 - August 18, 2009, 09:08 AM

    Oh boy this subject is not an easy one for sure. I am glad I did not have to do any exams on BB and before that.

    I know that time as a dimension was created after the big bang, but what the heck there was before that? Huh?

    It makes no sense to ask what was before time as that is a contradictory statement. I know scientists are currently debating on whether time is actually an illusion or not. We don't know enough right now to make assumptions on the definition of time.
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #72 - August 18, 2009, 09:35 AM

    I am a layman when it comes to this, for some info you can check out this site:

    http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274

    Cornell can be trusted Cheesy.


    Thanks for that article. It clears up a lot, and it turns out I was wrong Tongue Ignore what I said about expanding universes everyone Tongue It's not actually expanding, that's another scientific miracle from the Quran debunked Tongue Here's what really happening (from the article)-

    "Let me begin by saying that "expanding" isn't really the best word to describe what is happening to the universe, although that is the word that is often used - a word choice which I think leads to a lot of unnecessary confusion regarding what is already a difficult topic! A more accurate word for what the universe is doing might be "stretching".

    The difference between "expanding" and "stretching", for me at least, is that an "expanding universe" conjures up an image where there is a bunch of galaxies floating through space, all of which started at some center point and are now moving away from that point at very fast speeds. Therefore, the collection of galaxies (which we call the "universe") is expanding, and it is certainly fair to ask what it is expanding into.

    The current theories of the universe, however, tell us that this is not the picture we should have in mind at all. Instead, the galaxies are in some sense stationary - they do not move through space the way that a ball moves through the air. The galaxies simply sit there. However, as time goes on, the space between the galaxies "stretches", sort of like what happens when you take a sheet of rubber and pull at it on both ends. Although the galaxies haven't moved through space at all, they get farther away from each other as time goes on because the space in between them has been stretched. "
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #73 - August 19, 2009, 02:47 AM

    Dont think the Quran can handle any more debunking  bunny

    Maliki yawm ul LULZ
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #74 - August 19, 2009, 07:01 AM

    There are muslims who don't like it when individuals try to pull out "scientific facts" from the quran, because they say that basing ones faith in something like that is dangerous. Nuh Keller said that today's scientific fact will be tomorrow's joke.
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #75 - August 19, 2009, 09:39 AM

    If anyone broadly understands B4 and after BB, can you do those of us that are confused here a favour - and summarise it here in laymans terms in 1-2 paragraphs

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  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #76 - August 19, 2009, 11:11 AM

    what islame said +1 please

    ...
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #77 - August 19, 2009, 12:00 PM

    Wiki has a timeline of the Big Bang events, worth reading- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Big_Bang

    Any predictions for what was before the Big Bang is merely speculation atm.
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #78 - August 19, 2009, 12:03 PM

    too complicated - can you have a go as you have a better understanding of it than me!

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  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #79 - August 19, 2009, 01:18 PM

    This article explains it quite well-

    Big Bang Theory - The Premise
    The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.

    According to the standard theory, our universe sprang into existence as "singularity" around 13.7 billion years ago. What is a "singularity" and where does it come from? Well, to be honest, we don't know for sure. Singularities are zones which defy our current understanding of physics. They are thought to exist at the core of "black holes." Black holes are areas of intense gravitational pressure. The pressure is thought to be so intense that finite matter is actually squished into infinite density (a mathematical concept which truly boggles the mind). These zones of infinite density are called "singularities." Our universe is thought to have begun as an infinitesimally small, infinitely hot, infinitely dense, something - a singularity. Where did it come from? We don't know. Why did it appear? We don't know.

    After its initial appearance, it apparently inflated (the "Big Bang"), expanded and cooled, going from very, very small and very, very hot, to the size and temperature of our current universe. It continues to expand and cool to this day and we are inside of it: incredible creatures living on a unique planet, circling a beautiful star clustered together with several hundred billion other stars in a galaxy soaring through the cosmos, all of which is inside of an expanding universe that began as an infinitesimal singularity which appeared out of nowhere for reasons unknown. This is the Big Bang theory.

    Big Bang Theory - Common Misconceptions
    There are many misconceptions surrounding the Big Bang theory. For example, we tend to imagine a giant explosion. Experts however say that there was no explosion; there was (and continues to be) an expansion. Rather than imagining a balloon popping and releasing its contents, imagine a balloon expanding: an infinitesimally small balloon expanding to the size of our current universe.

    Another misconception is that we tend to image the singularity as a little fireball appearing somewhere in space. According to the many experts however, space didn't exist prior to the Big Bang. Back in the late '60s and early '70s, when men first walked upon the moon, "three British astrophysicists, Steven Hawking, George Ellis, and Roger Penrose turned their attention to the Theory of Relativity and its implications regarding our notions of time. In 1968 and 1970, they published papers in which they extended Einstein's Theory of General Relativity to include measurements of time and space.1, 2 According to their calculations, time and space had a finite beginning that corresponded to the origin of matter and energy."3 The singularity didn't appear in space; rather, space began inside of the singularity. Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know. We don't know where it came from, why it's here, or even where it is. All we really know is that we are inside of it and at one time it didn't exist and neither did we.

    Source: http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

    I only posted the first half of the article which answers your question. The rest of the article is worth reading too as it'll give you a better understanding.
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #80 - August 19, 2009, 02:33 PM

    thanks - it helped me to put this thread into perspective

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  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #81 - August 19, 2009, 08:33 PM

    If anyone broadly understands B4 and after BB, can you do those of us that are confused here a favour - and summarise it here in laymans terms in 1-2 paragraphs


    Nuh Keller said in one of his talks that scientists don't concern themselves with the cause of the big bang. He reckons that scientists seem to except that it's the big exception in that the cause is unexplained or is generally put aside.   Huh?
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #82 - August 19, 2009, 08:35 PM

    I don't think it's a huge issue for the moment as we don't have either the knowledge or the tools to ponder such a question. We've got a long way to go before we can understand what it means to say 'before the big bang'.
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #83 - August 19, 2009, 08:40 PM

    Its still important question in justifying our non-supernatural explanation, otherwise we are always going to be hit with the question of how something can be created out of nothing.  A supernatural explanation can explain it as God always existed and defied the laws of physics and human reasoning.

    However whats wrong with saying some particle or other have always existed?

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  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #84 - August 19, 2009, 08:44 PM

    How can a particle exist when no laws of physics were there? And just where did that particle exist? There was no space.

    Scientists shouldn't be bothered by what creationists think. Let them use this against us, it means nothing. Science is forever filling in more gaps. We cant fill this gap in yet because we have no idea what to speculate. Just be patient and ignore those stupid creationists.
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #85 - August 19, 2009, 08:45 PM

    Quote
    I don't think it's a huge issue for the moment as we don't have either the knowledge or the tools to ponder such a question. We've got a long way to go before we can understand what it means to say 'before the big bang'.


    Yeah, this is where the religious step in and demand a cause for the big bang. This cause they assert is God who created out of nothing. Even if we take the Ibn Rushd approach and say that energy has always existed (which is not an orthodox position). They still demand a cause for the big bang out of this eternal matter and energy. The big bang could have been part of some infinite regress as far as atheists/agnostics are concerned. It's the religious that want to posit a first cause and not go beyond that. The only issue I can see is that positing god explains nothing and does away with an explanation except for a religious one. On the other hand the religious accuse the atheists of just wanting to ignore a cause for a big bang, by saying that time/space started with the big bang and using terms like "before" the big bang doesn't make any sense. ( I hope that made sense?) Tongue
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #86 - August 19, 2009, 08:49 PM

    How can a particle exist when no laws of physics were there? And just where did that particle exist? There was no space.

    Scientists shouldn't be bothered by what creationists think. Let them use this against us, it means nothing. Science is forever filling in more gaps. We cant fill this gap in yet because we have no idea what to speculate. Just be patient and ignore those stupid creationists.


    True, A good book to explain all this with a scientific rather than philosophical slant is "God the failed hypotheis"
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #87 - August 19, 2009, 09:01 PM

    How can a particle exist when no laws of physics were there?

    Laws of physics have already been around

    Quote
    And just where did that particle exist?

     
    In a small part of space

    Quote
    There was no space.

    Who said that?  Is it confirmed?

    Quote
    Scientists shouldn't be bothered by what creationists think. Let them use this against us, it means nothing. Science is forever filling in more gaps. We cant fill this gap in yet because we have no idea what to speculate. Just be patient and ignore those stupid creationists.


    I still like to be able to postulate a theory that can hold an explanation, even if it is just speculation.

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  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #88 - August 19, 2009, 09:04 PM

    IsLame, did you not read the article I posted? There was no space before the Big Bang. The laws of physics were created after the Big Bang.
  • Re: B4 BB!
     Reply #89 - August 19, 2009, 09:49 PM

    OK this article does say otherwise, will delve deeper and see if I can come up with at least one exlplanation that can stand up to at least a mild form of scrutiny.

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