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Theme Changer

 Topic: The Deen of Allah

 (Read 17838 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #30 - September 02, 2009, 08:28 AM

    Hmmm... interesting indeed. That is the same thing Iblis said to Allah in the Qur'an when Iblis refused to bow down after Allah created Adam, that it was Allah's fault he went astray rather than his own. We as Human beings are endowed with free will, we choose to follow Allah, or to not follow Allah.


    Firstly a comparrison cannot be made with Iblis because this primodial event took place in the presence of Allah. Next Iblis is right in saying that it's Allah's fault. Remember Allah is omniscient isn't he? If Allah is omniscient then Iblis is right to blame Allah, for He is the one who created this inescapable dilemma for him in the first place.

    Quote
    Those who believe in Allah, and His Messenger Rasulullah Sallallahu alahi wa sallam with sincere devotion, and don't doubt the words of the Qur'an, or the Sunnah will continue to be guided by Allah. Those who chose to not follow the guidance given in the Qur'an, and Sunnah aren't at a loss just yet. It's only if they die rejecting the Allah, and His Messenger will be amongst the people who will have their final  place in the Hell fire.


    What is the difference between the above and the christian saying "accept the blood of christ"? As Soren Kierkegaard so rightly says, that one must make the initial leap of faith. In that case there is no difference between the follower of any religion and Islam. Also inherrent in your reply is the assumption that nobody here has followed or even tried to follow with devotion. If I take myself personally, I have been up and down the country and emailing left, right and centre for the past twenty years seeking "guidance". There has to come a point when one realises the fallacy with regards to "Allah's guidance".
     
    Quote
    Allah doesn't lead people astray... people allow themselves to be lead astray. A drug addict isn't forced to use drugs, he uses them because he chooses the feeling of being doped up rather than the feeling of being sober. No matter what a person may do or say you can't make them believe in God, or any deity for that matter. If their hearts are set in not believing then that is exactly what they are going to.


    The above is simply sophistry. It isn't about hearts, it's about reasoning. If the argument presented isn't convincing enough then it will be rejected. Whether you choose to call it led astray or not is besides the point. The issue is what ever choice that has been made by the individual isn't going against "ALLAH'S WILL". Allah has willed in his omnicience that you will be led astray. The freewill argument does not work here because it's incompatable with Allah's foreknowledge. This is known as theological fatalism. The only time the freewill argument might work is if you strip the omnicience attribute from Allah, which would give us free will. But by stripping that attribute, he wouldn't be God would he?

    Quote
    Granted God loves His creation, but in His wisdom He will not force people to love, and worship Him. So when a person is guided by Allah they freely choose to love God and follow him, as well has Messenger. When a person chooses not to follow God, and even goes so far as to even deny God's existence. Then that person as choosen to seperate himself from God. So of course there is no guidance for the person who chooses not to follow God.


    Again please see the above. This is making the initial leap of faith in the first place. It's like saying. Just believe me. But then all faiths make the same claim.
    [/quote]
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #31 - September 02, 2009, 08:44 AM

    The nation. I never can wrap my head around why many Blacks in America embraced the religion/culture that initiated the largest slave operation in history against them.


    Larger than Xtianity?

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #32 - September 02, 2009, 09:03 AM

    Actually there are some Muslim scholars that Hell isn't eternal. Doesn't sound right does it? However in Surah 78:23 where it tells us the length of time those sent to Hell will endure;

    'They will dwell therein for ages'

    The Arabic word for 'ages' used in the Qur'an is 'ahqabah' which lexicographers agree means for a limited time perhaps even the length of a single lifetime. Also in a Hadith from Bukhari, Muhammed (pbuh) says that a time will come when the inmates of Hell will be set free. I understand that the idea of Hell, something many are lead to believe as an eternal punishment, and yet created, and set aside as a dwelling for those who do not follow God, could come from a loving, merciful God. However what good does eternal punishment do? In a human way of looking at it, If I were to punish my daughter for not obeying me that punishment loses any effect as a correction if it last for a exceedingly long amount of time. That isn't merciful, that is psychotic. A punishment is just a corrective action taken to make he/she see the error of his/her ways, and bring them to a higher understanding of how they should behave. Likewise with Hell, it's not an everlasting torture, but rather a brief period of time of seperation from God in order to cleanse the soul of any, and all wrong doings they may have committed in this life.
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #33 - September 02, 2009, 09:55 AM

    Thanks for your answer Imam Ahmad.

    I am aware of the fact that several interpretations are indeed possible. But even in this interpretation god still looks like a control freak and  the original issue of morality is left unresolved.

    I am sure you have heard of the anecdote of the old woman wandering around with a dish full of fire in her right hand and a bowl full of water in her left hand. When asked what she was doing she answered that with fire she would burn paradise until nothing remained of it and with water she would put out the fires of hell "Because I want no one to do good in order to receive the reward of Paradise or from fear of Hell, but solely out of love for God" The question is why not erase God out of this completely and do good for the sake of it. Today this truely moral stance survives mostly in atheism.
    Fundamentalist do what they perceive as good deeds in order to fulfil God's will and earn salvation, atheist on the other hand do them simply because its the right thing to do. And that is also the most elementary experience of morality. When I do a good deed I do not do it in order to gain God's favour but because I cannot do otherwise, if I were not to do it I could not look myself in the mirror. Philosopher David Hume, himself a believer, made this point when he said that the only way to show true respect for God is to act morally while ignoring god's existence.


  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #34 - September 02, 2009, 10:14 AM

    Actually there are some Muslim scholars that Hell isn't eternal. Doesn't sound right does it? However in Surah 78:23 where it tells us the length of time those sent to Hell will endure;

    'They will dwell therein for ages'



    Imam, other verses indicate that hell will be forever. Skins being replaced each time they are burnt off, they will abide in it forever, and there is no escape.

    4:56 Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.

    4:168-169 Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road,  Except the road of hell, wherein they will abide for ever. And that is ever easy for Allah.

    34:51-52 Couldst thou but see when they are terrified with no escape, and are seized from near at hand, And say: We (now) believe therein. But how can they reach (faith) from afar off


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #35 - September 02, 2009, 10:21 AM

    Quote from: Imam_Ahmad
    That is the same thing Iblis said to Allah in the Qur'an when Iblis refused to bow down after Allah created Adam, that it was Allah's fault he went astray rather than his own.


    I thought Iblis said that he was made from fire and Adam was made of clay, and fire is better than clay so he would not bow to something inferior? Did he actually say it was Allah's fault?

    Quote
    We as Human beings are endowed with free will, we choose to follow Allah, or to not follow Allah.


    - Does Allah know before hand if we will choose him or not?
    - What if we are born in a place where Allah has never been heard about? Our free will will make us worship whatever gods are present there. Or not worship at all.
    - What if our Allah given free will leads us to think Allah is not god?

    Quote
    Those who believe in Allah, and His Messenger Rasulullah Sallallahu alahi wa sallam with sincere devotion, and don't doubt the words of the Qur'an, or the Sunnah will continue to be guided by Allah.


    - So is it only if you accept by blind faith this particular god out of the thousands that have ever existed, that this god will guide you?
    - Shouldn't Allah guide/teach, give adequate evidence to everyone, like any good parent/teacher would, until you are sufficiently convinced and then allow you develop a love for him? And then test you based on the level of love?

    Quote
    Those who chose to not follow the guidance given in the Qur'an, and Sunnah aren't at a loss just yet. It's only if they die rejecting the Allah, and His Messenger will be amongst the people who will have their final  place in the Hell fire.


    - Information about Allah was presented to me. After some research I find that evidence is sadly lacking for support of Islam's case. I therefore reject the data provided. Allah has not come forward to fill in the gaps that are bothering me, he seems ambivalent to the fact I'm about to reject him. He provides no guidance. So I reject belief in Islam or gods in general. Just because I reasoned freely, does that warrant this superior being to torture me for all eternity in fire, burning off my skin, and then replacing it to burn it off again?

    Quote
    Allah doesn't lead people astray... people allow themselves to be lead astray.


    - People use their 'god' given brains to make decisions. It is not about being led astray. With that logic a Christian can claim you have been led astray. Why don't you worship Zeus? Have you been led astray?

    Quote
    A drug addict isn't forced to use drugs, he uses them because he chooses the feeling of being doped up rather than the feeling of being sober.


    - That's true, we are free to choose a particular lifestyle. However the evidence is plain to see what will happen if you do choose a life of drugs. Choosing Allah does not make god any more visible than if you chose Rama, Jesus, Thor or no god at all. We know the effects of drugs before we take them from evidence. We have no evidence of Allah or hell because he provides no guidance until after we accept him.

    Quote
    No matter what a person may do or say you can't make them believe in God, or any deity for that matter.


    - Can you provide evidence for Allah? If you can I will surely believe.

    Quote
    If their hearts are set in not believing then that is exactly what they are going to.


    - The heart has nothing to do with it. It's the brain which is developed to reason and think

    Quote
    Granted God loves His creation, but in His wisdom He will not force people to love, and worship Him.

     

    - Is that why he creates a place of eternal torment to ensure that those he loves get tortured for all eternity all because they failed to step up to the position of worshipping him specifically?

    Quote
    So when a person is guided by Allah they freely choose to love God and follow him, as well has Messenger. When a person chooses not to follow God, and even goes so far as to even deny God's existence. Then that person as choosen to seperate himself from God. So of course there is no guidance for the person who chooses not to follow God.


    - If a person is born in any of the following situations, Allah will not guide them. Will they go to hell?
      1. A child that dies before being able to understand the guidance of Allah
      2. A person born in another religion, whom Allah would know would be indoctrinated in that religion and would have no opportunity to accept Him.
      3. A person born with limited mental capabilities not capable of understanding the concept of Allah.
      4. A person who hears about Allah but because they do not agree with some of the teachings reject Islam.
      5. A person who lived the Islamic way (like many here) tried very hard but got no so-called guidance and then renounces faith.

    Your concept of guidance based on the fact that you must first believe in Allah is quite hard to fathom. You should not have to accept something without first being guided and given adequate evidence? A child does not first have to believe in gravity before they are guided by their teachers to understand it.

    Guidance from a loving parent should not be dependant on a child first having to follow the parent. And if for some reason the child does not follow the parent the parent should have no right to lock them in the basement set the boiler alight and burn them for eternity.


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #36 - September 02, 2009, 11:16 AM

    .... Hell, it's not an everlasting torture, but rather a brief period of time of seperation from God in order to cleanse the soul of any, and all wrong doings they may have committed in this life....


    What a "bunch of smelly brown stuff" that comes out of an Almighty Ass!!! Couldn't just this incompetent Allah (a Lordship school dropout) do that with a touch of a button? To cleanse someone's soul he has to burn the shit out of him/her? finmad

    ...
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #37 - September 02, 2009, 11:25 AM

    Thank you for your response, you posed some very interesting questions, and arguments to what I posted. To the first question you asked. Yes Iblis did say he was made of fire, and thus superior to Adam. Iblis' sin was arrogance, and Iblis refused to bow down because he put his pride before obeying Allah's command. Thus getting him kicked out of paradise.. still Iblis' pride and arrogance blinded him to the consequences of his actions, and rather than seeing the error of his ways He blames his Creator, as if Allah set him up for a fall. In the Qur'an, Surah 15 ayah 39 we read;

    ' O my Lord!  Because thou hast put me in the wrong, I will make ( wrong) fair seeming to them on the Earth, and I will put them all in the wrong.'

    Does Allah know whether we will choose to obey him or not. Of course, He knows the hearts and minds of men. In the case of someone being born in a place where Allah is never heard of we have to look at the example of Abraham. He was born amongst a people that worshiped idols, and false gods. Yet Abraham questioned whether these  idols had any power to protect him, or do him harm. He looked to the Sun, and saw that it rose, and set. The Stars disappeared during the day, and were visible during the night. Everything Abraham saw that either was an object of worship, or could be was subject to submission to something else. So really in a case such as that a person who uses their intellect could see that if an idol, something made by Human hands has no power to even protect itself could not be God, nor could any part of creation since everything in creation is subject to some force that confines it to its intended purpose.
     That is the thing with free will, if a person chooses to follow God or not, ultimately it is between that person, and God. If the person doesn't believe in God, then what fear of punishment from God should he have?
     I hate to cut this short, but I will continue to answer the rest of yours later.
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #38 - September 02, 2009, 11:30 AM

    Actually there are some Muslim scholars that Hell isn't eternal. Doesn't sound right does it? However in Surah 78:23 where it tells us the length of time those sent to Hell will endure;

    'They will dwell therein for ages'

    The Arabic word for 'ages' used in the Qur'an is 'ahqabah' which lexicographers agree means for a limited time perhaps even the length of a single lifetime. Also in a Hadith from Bukhari, Muhammed (pbuh) says that a time will come when the inmates of Hell will be set free. I understand that the idea of Hell, something many are lead to believe as an eternal punishment, and yet created, and set aside as a dwelling for those who do not follow God, could come from a loving, merciful God. However what good does eternal punishment do? In a human way of looking at it, If I were to punish my daughter for not obeying me that punishment loses any effect as a correction if it last for a exceedingly long amount of time. That isn't merciful, that is psychotic. A punishment is just a corrective action taken to make he/she see the error of his/her ways, and bring them to a higher understanding of how they should behave. Likewise with Hell, it's not an everlasting torture, but rather a brief period of time of seperation from God in order to cleanse the soul of any, and all wrong doings they may have committed in this life.


    ٍA few scholars do believe these ages are in fact limited, not the widely accepted tafsir tho; and even most of those Mufasseroon believe limitation is only for Muslim transgressors, take a look @ the verse b4 that:


    078.022
    YUSUFALI: For the transgressors a place of destination:
    PICKTHAL: A home for the rebellious.
    SHAKIR: A place of resort for the inordinate,



    beside what a.ghazali has posted; read those ayas:

    005.037
    YUSUFALI: Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out therefrom: their penalty will be one that endures.
    PICKTHAL: They will wish to come forth from the Fire, but they will not come forth from it. Theirs will be a lasting doom.
    SHAKIR: They would desire to go forth from the fire, and they shall not go forth from it, and they shall have a lasting punishment.




    098.006
    YUSUFALI: Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
    PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.
    SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men.

    Arabic:

    { إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْ أَهْلِ ٱلْكِتَابِ وَٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَآ أَوْلَـٰئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ ٱلْبَرِيَّةِ }

    Khalideen Feeha: they're staying there for good...



    002.167
    YUSUFALI: And those who followed would say: "If only We had one more chance, We would clear ourselves of them, as they have cleared themselves of us." Thus will Allah show them (The fruits of) their deeds as (nothing but) regrets. Nor will there be a way for them out of the Fire.
    PICKTHAL: And those who were but followers will say: If a return were possible for us, we would disown them even as they have disowned us. Thus will Allah show them their own deeds as anguish for them, and they will not emerge from the Fire.
    SHAKIR: And those who followed shall say: Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.



    035.036
    YUSUFALI: But those who reject (Allah) - for them will be the Fire of Hell: No term shall be determined for them, so they should die, nor shall its Penalty be lightened for them. Thus do We reward every ungrateful one!
    PICKTHAL: But as for those who disbelieve, for them is fire of hell; it taketh not complete effect upon them so that they can die, nor is its torment lightened for them. Thus We punish every ingrate.
    SHAKIR: And (as for) those who disbelieve, for them is the fire of hell; it shall not be finished with them entirely so that they should die, nor shall the chastisement thereof be lightened to them: even thus do We retribute every ungrateful one.


    I stress on this too:

    4:168-169 Lo! those who disbelieve and deal in wrong, Allah will never forgive them, neither will He guide them unto a road,  Except the road of hell, wherein they will abide for ever. And that is ever easy for Allah.



    033.064
    YUSUFALI: Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire,-
    PICKTHAL: Lo! Allah hath cursed the disbelievers, and hath prepared for them a flaming fire,
    SHAKIR: Surely Allah has cursed the unbelievers and has prepared for them a burning fire,

    033.065
    YUSUFALI: To dwell therein for ever: no protector will they find, nor helper.
    PICKTHAL: Wherein they will abide for ever. They will find (then) no protecting friend nor helper.
    SHAKIR: To abide therein for a long time; they shall not find a protector or a helper.

    =============

    Ain't these contradictory?...(for argument sake let's say 78:23 is for Kuffar), so this 78:23 says it's limited, but how come there are many other verses that say the contrary?


    If still not convinced, I can present many other athaars, hadiths, and opinions of scholars who say clearly that kuffar are in Jahannam eternally.


    Can you give more details about the said Bukhari hadith (chapter, or number)?....because I actually know some hadiths that contradict what Mu said above.








    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #39 - September 02, 2009, 11:32 AM

    You know what right now went throu my mind?

    That was a real Epiphany!

    Religions are like Star Wars! No... Really!

    Look at how Star Wars geeks can discuss for HOURS about trivial things like *Han shot first* or the *Lea and Luke Kiss*... (Star Trek too... dont wanna offend the trekies)

    Religious people do the exact same thing. They discuss imaginary stuff as if it would matter in ANY way. For the real life its absolutly not important to know Who shot first/how long you have to stay in hell.

    The only difference is that SciFi nerds KNOW the stuff they are talking about isnt real, while religious people kill eachother over it.

    And for that matter Star Wars = Islam... Star Trek = Christainity... etc.

    Man... this is too funny. I bet if we would give Sci-Fi enough time it would become its own relig... oh wait... Scientology already exists!

    AND THATS how we got here.

    Somone tells a imaginary Story and some dude finds a way to turn it into something that profits him...

    Mo' sat in his cave and was on an opium trip, had hallutinations about an Angel and BOOM... Old Storys from the other 2 monotheistic Religions in a new dress.

    Ah man... this is too funny. People who made up all the Religions are nothing else then SciFi Authors!

    PRAISE George Lucas... Prophet of the Force...
    Beware the dark side for it will lead you to damnation...
    and to be sure the dark side dousnt get you...give us all your money... for hes the Most merciful and Kind our great Lucas the George!

    "We are never deceived, we deceive ourselves." - from Goethes Faust
    "Only the wisest and the stupidest men never change." - Confuzios
    "there is no religion of peace, only people who are peaceful while being religious."
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #40 - September 02, 2009, 12:15 PM

    You are right, my opinion of Islam needing reform is of the minority, and just like other Muslims who feel there needs to be some change to the way the Qur'an, and Sunnah is interpreted we'd be labeled as heretics. Not so different than Martin Luther, other reformers of Christianity. What reforms do I suggest be made. Well for one when we look at how the Qur'an values not taking innocent lives, We have to seriously take into account the penalty for apostates. The way I was taught to understand this is that an apostate that was to be killed was a person who not only left Islam, but did it with the intention of going over to those who were at war with the Muslims and giving them aid. They had to be guilty of treason in other words. Today any apostate has a sentence of Death hanging over their head. Simply for thinking freely. This is what God created us to do. I may disagree with people leaving Islam, but that doesn't mean I should wish death upon them. If a person wishes to leave Islam then that is between them and Allah. Then there is the stoning of people guilty of Adultery. The Qur'an gives the punishment for that offense as being flogging, not stoning. The Sunnah only gives 4 accounts of someone being stoned to death for Adultery, however the person stoned was a married Jew man who confessed to the incident. Stoning for adultery was law for Jews, and I know of no Hadith that refers to a Muslim being stoned to death for adultery. Not to mention that the Shariah prescribes that there be four witnesses, who saw the actual penetration... I doubt that, that is even possible, unless someone is looking to get into trouble. The effects adultery on families is terrible, however it does little in the cause of helping the family if one of the parents is about to get their head cracked open by a large rock... or several. It may sound a bit repugnant, but I feel if there is to be a punishment for adultery then following the Qur'anic prescription of flogging is more humane. There are also other ways of dealing with adultery, such as family counseling, a person may have slipped up, and fallen into adultery, but that doesn't mean that they aren't remorseful of what they did. Doesn't the Qur'an also tell us it is better to forgive a wrong, rather than seek to punish the wrong doer. These are are just a couple of things I feel will serve the Muslim community better. I'll post more, inshallah.
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #41 - September 02, 2009, 12:34 PM

    You're right Imam that is what is needed, a retranslation & reinterpretation of the Quran & hadith.

    For those of us that have read the Quran and the hadith, including your learned self, there is little doubt that the prophet and Allah were at times vengeful beings.

    And therein lies the problem - however we shape it (unless we lie) followers will see this nature and see it as somewhat sacrecent and acceptable behaviour, and so things can never really change.

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #42 - September 02, 2009, 01:06 PM

    Actually there are some Muslim scholars that Hell isn't eternal. Doesn't sound right does it? However in Surah 78:23 where it tells us the length of time those sent to Hell will endure;

    'They will dwell therein for ages'

    The Arabic word for 'ages' used in the Qur'an is 'ahqabah' which lexicographers agree means for a limited time perhaps even the length of a single lifetime. Also in a Hadith from Bukhari, Muhammed (pbuh) says that a time will come when the inmates of Hell will be set free. I understand that the idea of Hell, something many are lead to believe as an eternal punishment, and yet created, and set aside as a dwelling for those who do not follow God, could come from a loving, merciful God. However what good does eternal punishment do? In a human way of looking at it, If I were to punish my daughter for not obeying me that punishment loses any effect as a correction if it last for a exceedingly long amount of time. That isn't merciful, that is psychotic. A punishment is just a corrective action taken to make he/she see the error of his/her ways, and bring them to a higher understanding of how they should behave. Likewise with Hell, it's not an everlasting torture, but rather a brief period of time of seperation from God in order to cleanse the soul of any, and all wrong doings they may have committed in this life.


    So you don't believe in an eternal Hell - that's good - somewhat heretical - but good.

    At least you realise there is simply no logic in torturing someone forever.

    But you are now left with torturing people for the short period  Roll Eyes of a life-time for not believing.

    Doesn't that seem illogical also, Imam_Ahmad? What have unbelievers done wrong apart from reach the conclusion Islam is not true. (And we have not reached that conclusion because we are evil or bad people.)

    And how do you square a life-time of torture for what can only be - at worst - faulty reasoning - with an all-Merciful God?

    Since you have used logic and reason to dismiss eternal Hell - why stop there?

    btw I suggest you don't tell all your congregation you reject eternal Hell, unless they are an unorthodox lot Smiley
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #43 - September 02, 2009, 01:38 PM

    What reforms do I suggest be made. Well for one when we look at how the Qur'an values not taking innocent lives:


    The Qu'ran only values not taking innocent Muslim lives. The killing of infidels are recommended all through the Qu'ran. Aren't non-Muslim lives innocent?

    4:89 SHAKIR: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

    Here Allah says those who disbelieve must be seized and killed. Could this also include apostasy?

    9:5 SHAKIR: So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    9:29 SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

    9:11-12 If they repent, establish regular prayers, and practice regular charity, they are your brethren in faith. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your faith, fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them.

    Here the Qu'ran clearly recommends fighting those who violate their covenant with Allah ie apostates


    Quote
    Then there is the stoning of people guilty of Adultery. The Qur'an gives the punishment for that offense as being flogging, not stoning. The Sunnah only gives 4 accounts of someone being stoned to death for Adultery, however the person stoned was a married Jew man who confessed to the incident. Stoning for adultery was law for Jews, and I know of no Hadith that refers to a Muslim being stoned to death


    I think if you dug a bit deeper into the Sunnah you would change your mind on the above statements.

    Sahih Muslim 17:4214  Allah's Apostle called the Jews and said: What is the punishment that you find in your Book (Torah) as a prescribed punishment for adultery? They said: We blacken the face with coal and flog as a substitute punishment for stoning. Thereupon Allah's Messenger said: O Allah, I am the first to revive Thy command when they had made it dead. He then commanded and he the offender was stoned to death.

    The Jews of the time had addressed the barbarity of such punishments by reducing their harshness. However Muhammad insisted that since it was ordained by the Abrahamic God, no relenting from His command was possible.

    Sahih Bukhari 89:303 - A Bedouin came and said, "My son was a labourer for this man and committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife." The Prophet said, "I shall judge between you according to Allah's Book! Your son shall receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. "O you, Unais!" The Prophet addressed a man, "Go in the morning to the wife of this man and stone her to death." So Unais went to her the next morning and stoned her to death.

    Sahih Muslim 17:4191 ? Allah's Messenger said: Receive teaching from me. When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female they should receive one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.

    Sahih Muslim 17:4194 ? 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger and said: Allah sent Muhammad with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger awarded the punishment of stoning to death and, after him we also awarded the punishment of stoning. I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people may forget it and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery.

    Sahih Muslim 17:4198 - Jabir b. Samura reported: As he was being brought to Allah's Apostle I saw Malik, a short-statured person with strong sinews, having no cloak around him. He bore witness against his own self four times that he had committed adultery. He then got him stoned to death, and then delivered the address: Behold, as we set out for Jihad (holy war) in the cause of Allah, one of you lagged behind and shrieked like the bleating of a male goat. By Allah, in case I get hold of him, I shall certainly punish him.

    Sahih Muslim 17:4201 - Allah's Apostle said: Is it true what has reached me about you? It has reached me that you have committed adultery with the slave-girl of so and so? He said: Yes. He (the narrator) said: He testified four times. He (the Prophet) then made pronouncement about him and he was stoned to death.

    Sahih Muslim 17:4202 - Abu Sa'id reported that a person belonging to the clan of Aslam came to Allah's Messenger and said: I have committed immorality, so inflict punishment upon me. Allah's Apostle commanded us to stone him. We took him to the Baqi' al-Gharqad (the graveyard of Medina). We neither tied him nor dug any ditch for him. We attacked him with bones, with clods and pebbles. He ran away and we ran after him until he came upon the stony ground (al-Harra) and stopped there and we stoned him with heavy stones of the Harra until he became motionless.

    Sahih Muslim 17:4205 - Then a woman of Ghamid came to him and said: Messenger of Allah, purify me, whereupon he said: What has happened to you? She said that she had become pregnant as a result of fornication. He said to her: You will not be punished until you deliver what is there in your womb. One of the Ansar (believers) became responsible for her until she was delivered of the child. He (that Ansari) came to Allah's Apostle and said the woman of Ghamid has given birth to a child. The Prophet said: In that case we shall not stone her and so leave her infant with none to suckle him.

    Sahih Muslim 17:4206 - When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had hurried upon her. Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.

    Sahih Muslim 17:4207 - Imran b. Husain reported that a woman from Juhaina came to Allah's Apostle and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: Allah's Apostle, I have done something for which (prescribed punishment) must be imposed upon me, so impose that. Allah's Apostle called her master and said: Treat her well, and when she delivers bring her to me. He did accordingly. Then Allah's Apostle pronounced judgment about her and her clothes were tied around her and then he commanded and she was stoned to death.

    Sahih Muslim 17:4211 - A Jew and a Jewess who had committed adultery were brought to Allah's Messenger. Allah's Messenger came to the Jews and said: What do you find in Torah for one who commits adultery? They said: We darken their faces and make them ride on the donkey with their faces turned to the opposite direction (and their backs touching each other), and then they are taken round the city. He said: Bring Torah if you are truthful. They brought it and recited it until when they came to the verse pertaining to stoning. Allah's Messenger pronounced judgment that both of them be stoned. Abdullah b.Umar said: I was one of those who stoned them, and I saw him (the Jew) protecting her (the Jewess) with his body.

    Sahih Bukhari 82:803 - Narrated Ash-Sha'bi: from Ali when the latter stoned a lady to death on a Friday. Ali said, ?I have stoned her according to the tradition of Allah's Apostle.?

    Quote
    The way I was taught to understand this is that an apostate that was to be killed was a person who not only left Islam, but did it with the intention of going over to those who were at war with the Muslims and giving them aid. They had to be guilty of treason in other words. Today any apostate has a sentence of Death hanging over their head. Simply for thinking freely. This is what God created us to do. I may disagree with people leaving Islam, but that doesn't mean I should wish death upon them.


    Abdullah, a scribe of Muhammad who wrote down verses as they were revealed ealizing that the revelations from Allah were contradictory, returned to Mecca and adopted his former religion. He did not take up arms against Muhammad. On conquest of Mecca Muhammad ordered Abdullah be killed

    But the hadiths are filled with stories of apostates being killed when they did not fight against the Muslims. Muhammad himself recommends they be killed for no crime other than simply leaving the faith.

    Sahih Bukhari 4:260 - Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, ?Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment (fire).' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'

    Sunan Abu Da'ud 40:4747 - The Prophet said: "Soon there will appear disagreement and dissension in my people. They will swerve from the religion as an animal when shot at. They are worst of the people and are animals. Happy is the one who kills them and they kill him. He who fights against them will be nearer to Allah than others."

    Sahih Bukhari  83:17 - Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In retaliation for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

    Sahih Bukhari  89:271 - Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this man?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him as it is the verdict of Allah and His Apostle."

    Sahih Muslim 16:4152 - Allah's Messenger said: It is not permissible to take the life of a Muslim who bears testimony that I am the Messenger of Allah, except in one of the three cases: the married adulterer, a life for life, and the deserter of Islam, abandoning the community.

    Apologists might tell you one story but know death for leaving Islam as carried out by true Islamic societies is based soundly of the examples given by the prophet himself.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #44 - September 02, 2009, 07:34 PM

    Larger than Xtianity?


    What did xtianity do with slavery? They used slaves for few centuries and then abolished it. Ultimately, and that it the paradox, slaves in america had been freed by a secular christian state. A secular state that was around for less then couple centuries when they decided enough is enough and put away with that ancient evil. Yet they blame that State for being slaves.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #45 - September 02, 2009, 07:42 PM

    Yes Iblis did say he was made of fire, and thus superior to Adam. Iblis' sin was arrogance, and Iblis refused to bow down

    Yes Iblis refused to bow down to man. Is this arrogance? Do you bow down to a man? Other then Muhammad pbuh i mean.

    Also Iblis was born as an angel, was he not?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #46 - September 02, 2009, 07:49 PM

    A secular state that was around for less then couple centuries when they decided enough is enough and put away with that ancient evil.


    actually less than 1 century.
    1776 - 1865.
    In states like Pennsylvania, Vermont, and Massachusetts, slavery was abolished as early as 1780.

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #47 - September 02, 2009, 07:58 PM

    Yes Iblis refused to bow down to man. Is this arrogance? Do you bow down to a man? Other then Muhammad pbuh i mean.

    Also Iblis was born as an angel, was he not?


    That's according to Christianity, Baal - not according to Islam.

    According to Islam Iblees was a Jinn made of fire. The angels are a different species from the Jinn - and are made of light.

    Also the Jinn have free-will. The angels do not. If Iblees was an Angel he could not have refused to bow down - according to Islam.

    But I agree with him not wanting to bow down to man - or the God of Abraham.

    Both are not worthy.
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #48 - September 02, 2009, 08:06 PM

    Are inventions most important?
    Was iblis' intention to rebel against allah?

    This is were the story gets a bit murky......

    The foundation of superstition is ignorance, the
    superstructure is faith and the dome is a vain hope. Superstition
    is the child of ignorance and the mother of misery.
    -Robert G. Ingersoll (1898)

     "Do time ninjas have this ability?" "Yeah. Only they stay silent and aren't douchebags."  -Ibl
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #49 - September 02, 2009, 08:09 PM

    Are inventions most important?
    Was iblis' intention to rebel against allah?

    This is were the story gets a bit murky......


    Ah.. You see this is where the foundation of this whole thing is shakey. Iblis seems to be part of some sort of divine plan. In which case he isn't at fault. He is serving the purpose for which he is created and then in the end gets to suffer an eternity in the flames of jahannam.
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #50 - September 02, 2009, 08:10 PM

    Are inventions most important?
    Was iblis' intention to rebel against allah?

    This is were the story gets a bit murky......


    I reckon Allah made the whole thing up   Wink  grin12
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #51 - September 02, 2009, 08:19 PM

    I reckon Allah made the whole thing up   Wink  grin12


    I think we made "ALLAH" up! Afro
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #52 - September 02, 2009, 08:49 PM

    Well someone did - yes.

    Frankly if I had the chance to make up a God - I reckon I could do a hell of a better job!
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #53 - September 02, 2009, 09:03 PM

    Really? I think Islam has pretty much got the meme market sewn up. 

    The only problem it has is that it cant keep on modifying the meme in a bacteria-like fashion to keep up with societal adaptations.  If it could, it would have soon taken over the world.


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  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #54 - September 02, 2009, 09:12 PM

    Oh I agree that as far as scary - believe or die - religions go, Islam has won the race.

    I mean I could make up a much more loving, merciful and worthy God that wasn't a brutal tyrant.

  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #55 - September 02, 2009, 09:13 PM

    I am sure you could, but how else could you get it to grow?  Thinking hard

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #56 - September 02, 2009, 09:17 PM

    i donot understand how can religion be reformed or modified.. That means Allah doesnot know any better than his creations, and if we can come up with better laws  , so why send a message in the first place!??! .And am scared that these reformers might sugar coat religion and ditch parts of it, this isnot how great companions understood religion , and that means this was not the real message delivered by muhammed..

    أشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدآ عبده ورسوله
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #57 - September 03, 2009, 02:22 AM

    No Iblis was a Jinn. Jinn were created from what the Qur'an describes as smokeless fire.
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #58 - September 03, 2009, 05:02 AM

    I started posting this yesterday morning, but then I had many things and adventures so, I know most people have responded, probably.  I just wanted to get my 2 pennies in.

    Hmmm... interesting indeed. That is the same thing Iblis said to Allah in the Qur'an when Iblis refused to bow down after Allah created Adam, that it was Allah's fault he went astray rather than his own.


    So we're just  like this Iblis character then?  

    You can't have it both ways.  It can't be 'Big Al guides and misguides' and then when those of us who left Islam or who aren't Muslim despite reading the Quran say 'Then I guess it's his will that I'm not Muslim or he guided me out of Islam' say 'Oh it's free will.'  

    Quote
    We as Human beings are endowed with free will, we choose to follow Allah, or to not follow Allah.


    There is no allah.  Why follow something that does not exist?

    Quote
    Those who believe in Allah, and His Messenger Rasulullah Sallallahu alahi wa sallam with sincere devotion, and don't doubt the words of the Qur'an, or the Sunnah will continue to be guided by Allah.


    In other words, kids, we weren't REAL MUSLIMS.  Got it.  So you came here for the same old, same old or what?  

    Quote
    Allah doesn't lead people astray... people allow themselves to be lead astray.


    Wrong.  Your own book says he guides and misguides, that he turns people's hearts against him and Islam - he sealed 'firaun's' heart against him so that firaun could never have a true repentance and enter jennat ul firdaus.  You can't have it both ways.  

    Quote
    No matter what a person may do or say you can't make them believe in God, or any deity for that matter.


    Why would big Al choose for us not to believe in him, since every leaf that falls has already been written in his book?  You are right though - you can't force people to believe in god.  I wish more Muslims knew this.  

    Quote
    If their hearts are set in not believing then that is exactly what they are going to.


    I mean this in a not-snarky way, but do you know how arrogant that sounds?  Really.  What a major blow-off to all of the struggles so many people, not just former Muslims, have had with their inability to believe in invisible deities.  Is this how you, as an imam and servant to the people, counsel those in your community who have struggles with Islam?  And yet you will probably tell us you are a humble servant, humbled by your belief in Big Al, that he guided you to believe in him and to be a Muslim.  (But it was also free will of course. You chose to believe and chose to be Muslim!)

    Quote
    Granted God loves His creation, but in His wisdom He will not force people to love, and worship Him.

     

    Where does it say in al Quran that allah loves his creation?  I mean specifically words like hubb, ishq, whatever.  And he may not 'force' us to do anything, but if we don't go along with what he commands, he threatens us with eternal punishment.  Sounds like a loving guy.  

    Quote
    So when a person is guided by Allah they freely choose to love God and follow him, as well has Messenger. When a person chooses not to follow God, and even goes so far as to even deny God's existence. Then that person as choosen to seperate himself from God. So of course there is no guidance for the person who chooses not to follow God.



    Again you are trying to have it both ways.  I was a devoted Muslim for most of my adult life, and a lax Muslim for most of my life before that.  I tried and tried and tried - freely.  My choice to try and do what I thought god wanted.  If there is a god as the one conceived of by the scholars of Islam, then he chose to 'misguide' me out of Islam, despite my wearing hijab, reading Quran, fasting, making zikr, studying the deen with ulemaa, and so forth.  My own life story disproves this constant Islamic platitude and put-down.  

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: The Deen of Allah
     Reply #59 - September 03, 2009, 05:49 AM

    Actually there are some Muslim scholars that Hell isn't eternal. Doesn't sound right does it? However in Surah 78:23 where it tells us the length of time those sent to Hell will endure;

    'They will dwell therein for ages'


    The aya to which you refer (78:23) is but one aya in a sea of ayat and hadith that say hell is eternal.  And it refers to transgressors.  And transgressors can well be those who have the mustard seed of tawheed in their heart.  Indeed, many of the ulemaa say that this refers to the Muslims who are going to hell, not us kafirs.  And it is an established tenet of ahlu-sunnah that some Muslims will go to hell but not abide eternally therein.  And the Jalalayn says that

    Quote
    { لاَّبِثِينَ فِيهَآ أَحْقَاباً }

    to remain (lābithīna is an implied circumstantial qualifier, in other words, their remaining therein will be decreed [to be]) therein for ages, for endless epochs (ahqāb is the plural of huqb),


    Ibn Abbas gives some obscure formula of numbers for what ahqab means, saying that no 'ages' of time spent in hell will be interrupted.  

    Tafsir ibn Kathir says,
    Quote
    Khalid bin Ma`dan said, "This Ayah, and the Ayah,

    [إِلاَّ مَا شَآءَ رَبُّكَ] except your Lord wills. )11:107 both refer to the people of tawheed. Ibn Jaroor recorded this statement. Ibn Jaroor also recorded from Salim that he heard Al-Hasan being asked about Allah's statement,

    [لَّـبِثِينَ فِيهَآ أَحْقَاباً ] (They will abide therein Ahqab) "In reference to Ahqab, it has no specific amount of time other than its general meaning of eternity in the Hellfire. However, they have mentioned that the Huqb is seventy years, and every day of it is like one thousand years according to your reckoning (in this life).'' Sa`id reported from Qatadah that he said, "Allah says, [لَّـبِثِينَ فِيهَآ أَحْقَاباً ] (They will abide therein Ahqab.) (78:23) And it is that which has no end to it. Whenever one era comes to an end, a new era follows it. It has been mentioned to us that the Huqb is eighty years.'' Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said, [لَّـبِثِينَ فِيهَآ أَحْقَاباً ] (They will abide therein Ahqab) "No one knows how much time this Ahqab is, except for Allah, the Mighty and Sublime. It has been mentioned to us that one Huqb is eighty years, and the year is three hundred and sixty days, and each day is equivalent to one thousand years according to your reckoning (in this life).''


    And there is this

    إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَعَنَ الْكَافِرِينَ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ سَعِيرًا
    خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أَبَدًا لَّا يَجِدُونَ وَلِيًّا وَلَا نَصِيرًا

    Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers and prepared for them a Blazing Fire, to dwell therein for ever: no protector will they find, nor helper.

    This is 33:64-5. Tafsir ibn Kathir, the Jalalayn, Tanwir al Miqbas, all say that this means forever. And ever.  And ever.  

    إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا وَمَاتُوا وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ أُولَئِكَ عَلَيْهِمْ لَعْنَةُ اللّهِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ
    خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا لاَ يُخَفَّفُ عَنْهُمُ الْعَذَابُ وَلاَ هُمْ يُنظَرُونَ

    Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting, on them is Allah's curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;  They ever dwell therein. The doom will not be lightened for them, neither will they be reprieved.

    This is 2:161-2.  And it says at aya 167

    وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُواْ لَوْ أَنَّ لَنَا كَرَّةً فَنَتَبَرَّأَ مِنْهُمْ كَمَا تَبَرَّؤُواْ مِنَّا كَذَلِكَ يُرِيهِمُ اللّهُ أَعْمَالَهُمْ حَسَرَاتٍ عَلَيْهِمْ وَمَا هُم بِخَارِجِينَ مِنَ النَّارِ

    And those who followed would say: "If only We had one more chance, We would clear ourselves of them, as they have cleared themselves of us." Thus will Allah show them (The fruits of) their deeds as (nothing but) regrets. Nor will there be a way for them out of the Fire.

    The same tafaseer of these ayat say the same - that the hellfire in the Quran is clearly for all time - it is eternal. The punishment is not lightened (as it says in many other ayat and in the hadiths) and it does not end.  This is why it is so important in Islam that people believe now - for they shall have no other chance to believe when they get to the akhirah and see the unseen and finally have proof of big Al.  No, belief without any proof is a pre-condition for avoiding eternal hell.  

    As for the eternity of hell, there are other ayat saying the same.  

    Of the major scholars, by which I mean those whose names are known to the general laity of Islam, rather than the priests clergy clerics, the only two I know of who have said that 'the mercy of allah outstrips his wrath' means that the hell fires will be extinguished someday, sometime down the road of all eternity are ibn Taymiyah and ibn Arabi.  All of the other major ulemaa of the deen, including those whose specialty is aqeedah, are in agreement that the torments of jahanam are for eternity.  So it is either a minority opinion you want to promote to make Islam feel good for yourself or look good to us, or we can say it is merely a difference of opinion and interpretation, the same way that other issues are dismissed as 'difference of opinion.'  In which case, the belief in eternal hell is still the dominant position of ahlu-sunnah, and I believe of the Shiah as well, but I'm not sure on that.  And being that I, and many others here, was a Muslim, I know what the dominant teaching is very well.  

    Quote
    Also in a Hadith from Bukhari, Muhammed (pbuh) says that a time will come when the inmates of Hell will be set free. I understand that the idea of Hell, something many are lead to believe as an eternal punishment, and yet created, and set aside as a dwelling for those who do not follow God, could come from a loving, merciful God.  However what good does eternal punishment do? In a human way of looking at it, If I were to punish my daughter for not obeying me that punishment loses any effect as a correction if it last for a exceedingly long amount of time. That isn't merciful, that is psychotic. A punishment is just a corrective action taken to make he/she see the error of his/her ways, and bring them to a higher understanding of how they should behave. Likewise with Hell, it's not an everlasting torture, but rather a brief period of time of seperation from God in order to cleanse the soul of any, and all wrong doings they may have committed in this life.


    Do not the Quran and sunnah speak of the dwellers of the hellfire who shall say things such as 'Woe to us, that we did not believe!' and 'Oh Lord, give us one more day and we shall believe and live aright' and the answer from ar-Rahman will be 'Too bad, you had your chance.'  Because I sure do remember reading that many times, hearing from the minbar, and hearing it in durus.  Oh, and in the ayat above as well.

    قَالُوا رَبَّنَا أَمَتَّنَا اثْنَتَيْنِ وَأَحْيَيْتَنَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَاعْتَرَفْنَا بِذُنُوبِنَا فَهَلْ إِلَى خُرُوجٍ مِّن سَبِيلٍ

    ذَلِكُم بِأَنَّهُ إِذَا دُعِيَ اللَّهُ وَحْدَهُ كَفَرْتُمْ وَإِن يُشْرَكْ بِهِ تُؤْمِنُوا فَالْحُكْمُ لِلَّهِ الْعَلِيِّ الْكَبِ

    They shall say: Our Lord! twice didst Thou make us subject to death, and twice hast Thou given us life, so we do confess our faults; is there then a way to get out?  (It is said unto them): This is (your plight) because, when Allah only was invoked, ye disbelieved, but when some partner was ascribed to Him ye were believing. But the command belongeth only to Allah, the Sublime, the Majestic.

    (40:11-12)

    Also, please do reference and provide the quote for the hadith in Bukhari you are talking about.  

    Also, the comparison of hell to punishing your daughter for misbehaving is not a flattering one.  Do you punish your daughter by whipping her, putting yokes and chains on her, making her drink molten lead and blood, and pus, burning her skin, making her eat from the horrible tree of zaqqum, disembowel her, and any other of the thousands of hellish delights spoken of in the Quran and Sunnah? No?  Then you are not like the loving and merciful god you speak of.

    [this space for rent]
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