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Theme Changer

 Topic: Buddhism

 (Read 29008 times)
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  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #120 - September 19, 2009, 11:13 AM

    meditation is a physical and mental thing, works on both levels, anyone can do it, its not a case of believing in a myth. Nothing to do with having to have faith (and everything to do with a restless, out of control mind), hence your analogy is very wrong, and again, shows that you've never successfully practised, which is a shame, coz it is avaliable to all. Again, your reply - baby, bath-water.


    Also Islame, it's a silly comparison in other ways, I mean, if I said to you - 'To appreciate Shakespeare fully, you must read the texts, and study carefully' - is that like islam too? By your reactionary reasoning, yes.

    Not everything we say here is a reaction to Islam, and nothing to do with the proverbial baby & bathwater. 

    Its about logic and something that works, and it has never worked for me. I find (and I might be wrong) that these things tend to work on people who have a 'spirtual side' to them.  I cant get my mind into a trance like state, so if I want to relax, then I just relax by music, rest etc. I have even been to a reputed hypnotist and she failed to make any difference.

    Perhaps you're right and I have not done it properly - so how do you meditate Jack,  if you can tell me what I need to do, and you really believe it works then I'll give it a go and see if it does anything for me..

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #121 - September 19, 2009, 02:03 PM

    I sound absurd? Well that's your perception my friend, however you are right I have never practised meditation and I don't intend to, namely because even for you it helps you then that's your subjective experience but I am saying I don't think I need it - I can't see how it will make me a better person.

    Like I said my spiritual side extends to being a loving person to my family and recognising the beauty in nature and so forth however I do not feel the need to commit myself to meditation to be able to feel spiritual and can't see any benefits apart from relieving stress which can be done in numerous ways aside that.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #122 - September 19, 2009, 02:39 PM

    1.Not everything we say here is a reaction to Islam, and nothing to do with the proverbial baby & bathwater. 

    2,Its about logic and something that works, and it has never worked for me.


    1.No, but quite a lot seems to be. Especially if you can apply the word 'spiritual' to it.

    2. Quite often people say they are not good at something, and usually just because they haven't tried or practiced enough, not just med, but playing an instrument, playing football, gymnastics, whatever. If you're interested enough, there are a zillion good books out there. It's not anything to do with going into a 'trance like state' though, but stopping  thoughts so that your mind is still. If you want to think of it as 'spiritual' or not, up to you. I used to find drinking a good way of relaxing, but meditation beats it hands down - and no silly stuff, hangover, or money down the drain to worry about. Personally, I couldn't care less whether you do or don't, but I believe quite strongly, that if you are going to dismiss something, then at least you have some real experience of it instead of 'Tried that, not for me.' It can take years  to develop it, it's not easy, but it's so worth it.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #123 - September 19, 2009, 02:45 PM

    I sound absurd?



    Only in that to all those that do practise it and gain so much from it, it sounds absurd that others can simply toss it in the bin as a 'waste of time' (after, I suspect, not practicing enough - because otherwise you wouldn't be dissing it). But each to their own. And it's great that you've defined the limits of your 'spirituality'. whistling2

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #124 - September 19, 2009, 05:04 PM

    I used to find drinking a good way of relaxing, but meditation beats it hands down - and no silly stuff, hangover, or money down the drain to worry about. Personally, I couldn't care less whether you do or don't, but I believe quite strongly, that if you are going to dismiss something

    If you used alcohol as a previous method of relaxation, then I dont doubt that meditation is better.  In fact praying to a 6 elbowed wombat would be more relaxing for me than consuming beer.
    Quote
    then at least you have some real experience of it instead of 'Tried that, not for me.' It can take years  to develop it, it's not easy, but it's so worth it.

    The argument that 'it works for me' or 'it takes years of to develop' doesnt really help.  In much the same way that 'praying my salat' relaxes me or you first need to practise it for years' is not an effective method of convincing others.
    It may be true, but I suggest there are better ways of putting you argument forward.  If you cant be bothered explaining what you do (as I asked earlier) and how it works in a more cerebral manner, then simply dont.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #125 - September 19, 2009, 05:18 PM

    I'm happy it works for you but no offense I can find better things to do with my time. Spirituality is not really a priority in my life.
    I define those as limits of spirituality because those things come natural to me. I don't need to sit on my butt and do meditation exercises and what not to feel spiritual.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #126 - September 19, 2009, 05:25 PM

    I'm not sure what point you are trying to make any more Islame, I get it that you don't like meditation, but you seem to like to read into things rather more than necessary. I didn't mean drinking a beer is like meditating, I was talking generally about how to switch the brain off when you don't want to think anymore, because that's the context here with meditation. People relax in all kinds of ways, I've tried lots, med works great for me, sorry it didn't work out for you though - and I'm sure you gave it every chance to show the great Islame what it could do.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #127 - September 19, 2009, 05:31 PM

    I'm happy it works for you but no offense I can find better things to do with my time. Spirituality is not really a priority in my life.
    I define those as limits of spirituality because those things come natural to me. I don't need to sit on my butt and do meditation exercises and what not to feel spiritual.




    Why would I take offence? That you think meditation is 'sitting on your butt and what not'? I'm not related to meditation, so you may sleight it in any way you see fit good man, and anyway, it probably doesn't have feelings, so please, none taken Afro

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #128 - September 19, 2009, 06:47 PM

    What do you do exactly - let me know how Jack Torrance meditates.  I am not sure if you are purposefully avoiding the question, or just missed it when I asked earlier. 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #129 - September 19, 2009, 07:39 PM

    If I thought you were really interested, I'd have a go at explaining, but after what's been said, I doubt you are and I'm not in the mood for endlessly explaining and  defending something that i couldn't care less whether you are into it or not.

    There are many different methods, depends on what suits you. PM me if you're serious.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #130 - September 19, 2009, 07:44 PM

    If it sounds like something that could work and that I dont do already, then I would go for it. 

    I doubt it though, but thanks anyway.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #131 - September 19, 2009, 07:51 PM

    If it sounds like something that could work and that I dont do already, then I would go for it. 

    I doubt it though, but thanks anyway.


    I've got a WII fit board so do my yoga etc on that.
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #132 - September 19, 2009, 07:52 PM

    The wii fit board is excellent - I went on it a few days ago and it told me off for not going on it for six months.  Bought the new tennis game for it  dance

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #133 - September 19, 2009, 08:04 PM

    Meditation is nothing more and nothing less than becoming aware of the thinker that is thinking the thoughts of your mind. Its aim is to become conscious of your own consciousness. It's not hogwash because we all have thoughts. We start thinking we *are* our thoughts, but what are thoughts and where do they come from... these are the questions that lead most people to meditate. Meditation may seem like sitting on one's butt and sure it can be, but anything can be meditative. Once a person is conscious of the constant onslaught of thoughts, then you can be MindFul of your thoughts when you are doing anything, including mundane things like working, doing the dishes, changing diapers, talking to someone, catching the bus, driving. It's about being in the *here* and *now* and not being constantly stuck in our own thought processes. It's about being aware of the body, of the breath and of how our mind has the ability to take our awareness away from the present moment and whatever we are experiencing and into temporal fantasies and/or memories and/or speculations.

    Meditation has to nothing to do with any religion. In fact, prayers of religions were most likely formulated to replace meditation to focus one's consciousness on an outside entity "god" or "angels" or "saints" or "prophets" or whatever.

    Some people meditate while listening to soothing music, some do it by sitting quietly with their eyes closed, some by looking at a candle flame or a mandala (painting/drawing) or looking at something in nature (sky, petals, trees, etc.).

    The basis of it is to focus on your breathing. For anyone who wants to try to get a taste of it, try to sit in a quiet place for 5 minutes and breathe deeply, letting your breath reach your abdomen. Do the deep breathing for 10 breaths, slowly. Notice the sensation of the air going in, filling your lungs, diaphragm, stomach and then slowly release the air. Then do it again. Physiologically speaking, this provides your body with more oxygen which helps to clear the mind. Once you've been breathing deeply and slowly, notice the thoughts that come into the mind. For most people starting out with meditation, the first few thoughts are something like:
    - This is stupid, what a waste of time.
    - I can't meditate, I don't know what it even means.
    - What's the point of all this anyway.
    - I wonder what I'll have for lunch/dinner/breakfast.
    - My _____ hurts.
    - I wonder what _____ is doing right now.

    These are thoughts. Most of the time, we identify completely with our thoughts. Our thoughts are constantly changing. There's an ongoing commentary going on in our brains and we are usually too busy and not aware enough to even be conscious of the commentary. We just go along with it. Mindfulness meditation is about getting to the space *in between* the thoughts. The silence that's there just after one thought ends and another one begins. That is the space within which all thoughts arise and flow away.

    The reason to do meditation regularly is so that we become more and more aware of our thoughts, are no longer slaves to our thoughts because thoughts can be irrational, destructive and can lead us to depression, anxiety, etc. To be conscious of our thoughts is ultimately about being able to choose to focus on some thoughts and letting go of other thoughts because we know that ultimately they are all just thoughts.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #134 - September 19, 2009, 08:20 PM

    Of course, it's not for everyone. One thing meditation is meant to teach mindful people is to not impose our subjective experiences on others. There was a long period of my life where I just couldn't be bothered to sit quietly. Even nowadays, there are days when I meditate everyday for months and other periods of time when I can't find the time or the patience to do it. Meditation does teach me to become more patient with myself and with others, when I remember to do it. There's no dogma saying you should or shouldn't meditate or do it this way or that way. It's simply about being aware of your self and your thoughts. It can't be forced on another person and it can't be forced on yourself. The best meditation advice I ever got was from reading Pema Chodron. She advises that when meditating, when thoughts arise, to view them in your "mind's eye" like bubbles floating up, and to "touch" them lightly as though with a feather and label them gently, "Thought" and then letting them float away and do the same with the next one. One thing that is apparent early on is how MANY thoughts are always there, one after another after another. Everything we think of is a thought, literally. So it can be overwhelming at first. Until you learn to notice the small, almost imperceptible (at first) *silence* that exists in between thoughts.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #135 - September 19, 2009, 09:31 PM

     Smiley Bloody good explanation.  Afro  Which reminds me, it has been a while......

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Buddhism
     Reply #136 - September 20, 2009, 03:39 PM

    Thanks, allat  Smiley

    "God is a geometer" - Plato

    "God is addicted to arithmetic" - Sir James Jeans
  • Buddhism
     Reply #137 - September 14, 2014, 02:09 AM

    Villiage_Idiot, bringing this thread back for you. popcorn

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Buddhism
     Reply #138 - September 14, 2014, 02:55 AM

    Quote from: Manat
    ]Have any of you, particularly ex-Muslims, found yourselves drawn to Buddhism? Why or why not?  Sometimes I feel like I still want a little ritual and mystery in my life and I definitely wish I had community - something I didn't really have with Islam, with all its conditional friendships, and divisions based on class, race, and ethnicity.

    I'm an atheist, but sometimes I've thought, 'Well I could just go to a liberal church or something.'  But I won't, because I am really not a fan of Christianity.  I do know about Unitarian Universalists, whose 'tone' differs from church to church, and I have heard about a branch of Quakers that are non-theist - but I am not a pacifist, so I guess I wouldn't do well there.

    I know that Buddhism, in a general sense, is non-theist.  It seems like it doesn't require that you choose a sect or that you adhere to rigorous practices, but I don't know much about it.  I like that paganism is sort of irreverent in many forms, but I am definitely not a polytheist, and of course there are pagans whose woo is even worse than Muslims.  (Woo being the silly beliefs factor).  If I was going to believe in gods, I would chose the likes of Thor and Freya. Or maybe Al-Lat and Uzza.


    This quote, attributed to the Buddha, is posted everywhere, and I think it contributes to the belief that Buddhism is a DIY, liberal religion :

    “Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”

    This quote has been proven to be a misinterpretation. The Buddhist scriptures are much larger than the Islamic, Christian, or Jewish ones, and -like practitioners of those religions- people often don't bother reading the scriptures. The real scripture that this quote is taken from actually says the opposite. It says that rational thought alone isn't enough, spiritual revelation is necessary.

    But even if this quote were true, what it would mean? The Buddha is said to have (he never wrote anything down) created The Four Noble Truths. These Four Noble Truths are the fundamental stones of Buddhism. If you don't believe these Truths, you aren't a Buddhist, pure and simple.

    If the quote above was a teaching of Buddhism (which is absolutely isn't), it would mean that the Buddha doesn't care if you believe what he does, but you're still going to suffer a bad re-birth for not doing so, because the Buddha absolutely believed in the doctrine of karma and re-birth.

    The Four Noble Truths are:
    1. There is suffering.
    2. The origin of suffering is craving, desire, and ignorance.
    3. Suffering can be ended completely.
    4. The end of suffering is achieved by following The Noble Eightfold Path.

    Personally, I strongly disagree that desire is the root of suffering. But that's just me.

    The Noble Eightfold Path is:

    1. Right View
    The right view includes realizing that everything about life is impermanent and will experience suffering. It includes realizing that there is no self. It also includes realizing that there is the laws of karma. The laws of karma dictate that every good or bad action had a consequence. This doesn't just mean that if I kick a ball, it will move, it means that an equal consequence will happen. Karma is always fair. If a newborn infant is born with a heart condition, it's because of his bad actions previously. He should attempt to be moral from now on to avoid further bad karma. The law of karma is fundamental to the Right View, therefore fundamental to Buddhism.

    2. Right Intention
    A commitment to the spiritual life. A renunciation of material comforts, and a commitment to non-violence (this includes going to war to defend your country and your family). Thoughts are also included here.

    3. Right Speech
    A direct quote on this one, "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter: This is called right speech."
    As you can see, I disagree on the "idle chatter" part!

    4. Right Action
    There are different sets of rules for monks and laypeople.
    Laypeople: "And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, and from illicit sex. This is called right action."
    Monks: "And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action."
    Clearly, it is more karmically correct to be a monk than a layperson though.

    5. Right Livelihood
    Selling weapons, selling meat, selling alcohol, selling sex etc. is all prohibited.

    6. Right Effort
    Making an effort to abandon all the wrong and harmful thoughts and actions.

    7. Right Mindfulness
    Always being aware of yourself.

    8. Right Concentration
    You must practice meditation, as it is the path to spiritual revelations.

    Buddhism is often promoted as a DIY, pick and choose religion, where you can be as liberal as you want and you're still a Buddhist. That's not true. There's already a word for people who pick and choose what they want to believe based on their own critical thought -they're called Atheists.

    I sincerely hope that I have not offended anyone with this post.

    The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
  • Buddhism
     Reply #139 - September 14, 2014, 03:19 AM

    1. Right View
    The right view includes realizing that everything about life is impermanent and will experience suffering. It includes realizing that there is no self. It also includes realizing that there is the laws of karma. The laws of karma dictate that every good or bad action had a consequence. This doesn't just mean that if I kick a ball, it will move, it means that an equal consequence will happen. Karma is always fair. If a newborn infant is born with a heart condition, it's because of his bad actions previously. He should attempt to be moral from now on to avoid further bad karma. The law of karma is fundamental to the Right View, therefore fundamental to Buddhism.


    I find this particular belief in karma to be very troubling. To me it's just one more ancient false teaching by people who don't know better trying to understand why bad things happen.

    I think I recall you saying that you come from a buddhist community. How are those who are perceived as being the result of bad karma treated? Do they have to prove themselves more than other people for example?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Buddhism
     Reply #140 - September 14, 2014, 03:49 AM

    Quote
    I find this particular belief in karma to be very troubling. To me it's just one more ancient false teaching by people who don't know better trying to understand why bad things happen.

    I think I recall you saying that you come from a buddhist community. How are those who are perceived as being the result of bad karma treated? Do they have to prove themselves more than other people for example?


    Just to clarify, my town is just an ordinary little mining town in Oz. The Buddhist community I was talking about feeling shunned by was the people at the temple, the meditation groups, the spiritual teachers, the whole circle of Buddhist friends. I feel like questioning the basic Buddhist beliefs is deeply frowned upon. There's a sort of "If you don't believe it, then why do you even bother coming here?" attitude.

    To answer your question, I find that other Buddhists take the stance that a person in unfortunate circumstances is simply working off their bad karma. They're kind to them, but believe it's fair. I think a very good example of the Buddhist karma belief in action is this:

    A young Australian schoolgirl called Bung Siriboon has been missing for a long time now, most likely dead. Her parents are Buddhists. They describe their pain in losing their daughter and their belief in karma this way, "They [the monks] said my karma's from the last life. But what I did, I don't know. We have to accept the karma."

    Full article:
    http://justineford.net/wp-content/uploads/WHO-Magazine-25.06.12.pdf

    The misspelling in my name is intentional, because I'm an idiot and I can't spell properly. But I'd probably also say that even if it was a mistake. Does that clear things up?
  • Buddhism
     Reply #141 - September 14, 2014, 03:56 AM

    That's fucked up.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Buddhism
     Reply #142 - September 14, 2014, 10:06 AM

    Oh i'm glad this thread is here i will read it all later, ive always been interested in budhism but never got to study it due to laziness, was interested in karma and why good and bad things happen to people, for example in the space of a few days my shower, washing machine, clothes dryer and toilet have all given up on life , why do things happen in clusters, well they do for me anyway,  it is a mystery Huh? 
  • Buddhism
     Reply #143 - September 14, 2014, 10:18 AM

    Before you go all mystical on us Suki, read:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Drunkards-Walk-Randomness-Rules/dp/0141026472

     grin12

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Buddhism
     Reply #144 - September 14, 2014, 10:39 AM

    lol  i do have a tendancy to go mystical, but really what are the chances of my appliances breaking down in the same week, one day apart, why not spread out over time instead of all at once, very weird  : )
  • Buddhism
     Reply #145 - September 14, 2014, 10:45 AM

    The book I linked you to discusses these sorts of issues amongst other things such as voting polls.

    If we really wanted to, we could probably calculate the chances of your appliances breaking down but you would need to get some data from your manufacturers & then we can use a poisson distribution or a similar approximation.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Buddhism
     Reply #146 - September 14, 2014, 10:50 AM

    Thanks Qitain, i will take a nosey  : )  x
  • Buddhism
     Reply #147 - September 14, 2014, 10:55 AM

    No problem Smiley

    Now I shall stop posting here before I go off on a tangent about statistics and probability.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Buddhism
     Reply #148 - September 14, 2014, 10:59 AM

    http://personal.maths.surrey.ac.uk/st/J.Deane/Teach/se202/poiss_bin.html

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Buddhism
     Reply #149 - September 15, 2014, 09:03 AM

    The book I linked you to discusses these sorts of issues amongst other things such as voting polls.

    If we really wanted to, we could probably calculate the chances of your appliances breaking down but you would need to get some data from your manufacturers & then we can use a poisson distribution or a similar approximation.


    missed this, well appliances are only built to last for a few years anyway, so the probability is if bought new they will all break down around the same time : )  dunno how old mine are my sis gave to me : )  just was odd that evrything happend at once, so now im washing clothes by hand like in the cave man days lol  :/

    x
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