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 Topic: Hello people

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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #270 - January 15, 2010, 05:00 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 04:56 PM
    First off, the false doctrine that ALL verses are for all time was invented by Muslims.

    Now, this verse was revealed for a specific case back then. Arabs, of course, were in the habit of beating the hell out of their wives. At one occasion, one of women complained to the prophet and he immediately exclaimed: "the worst of you (men) are the worst towards their wives and the best are the best towards their wives"... Meaning? No beating whatsoever... Of course, the women, after years of opression, started abusing their husbands in revenge, knowing that they could not beat them. So, now the men went to the prophet complaining about the treatment they get from their wives.

    So the verse was revealed... which really meant: you can't hit your wives unless they're really causing you trouble that even after going through the self-punishing process of abstaining from sex with them, they're still causing trouble only then you can hit them.
    This ruling is practically like a suspended sentence.... no man is really hell bent on beating his wife that he'd wait for a while without sex with her before he can finally hit her.

    OF COURSE, hitting wives is unacceptable under any circumstances even after a self-punishing waiting period (abstaining from sex).. but this was for that case ONLY.... things have already gotten out of hand... note how the wives were damaged enough because of past maltreatment that they felt like exacting revenge on their husbands... the whole situation was hopeless and that solution was for that specific case. 


    But it is okay to hit your wife under the right circumstances?
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #271 - January 15, 2010, 05:04 PM
    Quote from: Submissive Bob on January 15, 2010, 04:43 PM
    So a prophet speaking of Angels would not sound like a different type of supernatural belief. It would sound like Islam.


    Let me give an example, perhaps we'll understand each other.

    Suppose:

    1- prophet A came to a people living in the 7-th century and told them an angel of God visited me and gave me a message of him.
    2- prophet B came to the same people and told them the Earth you're standing upon is a ball, and it is actually rotating around itself and around the sun as we speak.

    Which of the two prphets do you think those people are more likely to accept?

    That's what I meant when I asked you not to mix up supernatural accounts with other stuff... it's far easier to accept different supernatural claims as opposed to asking other things like abolishing slavery, etc.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #272 - January 15, 2010, 05:05 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on January 15, 2010, 05:00 PM
    But it is okay to hit your wife under the right circumstances?


    You're obviously not reading anything I write.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #273 - January 15, 2010, 05:07 PM
    Quote from: taraC on January 15, 2010, 04:54 PM
    That's no excuse. A divine revelation should have known better than that. You may have thought it was normal but you are a normal ordinary person, not the messenger of Allah. Shouldn't the prophet for all humanity know better than normal people?


    No, actually he didn't know anything beyond normal people and it is even stated in the Quran... do you want verses?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #274 - January 15, 2010, 05:08 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 04:56 PM
    First off, the false doctrine that ALL verses are for all time was invented by Muslims.


    Ok so who decides which verses are applicable today and which aren't? I thought you said you don't really listen to scholars..

    Quote
    Now, this verse was revealed for a specific case back then. Arabs, of course, were in the habit of beating the hell out of their wives. At one occasion, one of women complained to the prophet and he immediately exclaimed: "the worst of you (men) are the worst towards their wives and the best are the best towards their wives"... Meaning? No beating whatsoever... Of course, the women, after years of opression, started abusing their husbands in revenge, knowing that they could not beat them. So, now the men went to the prophet complaining about the treatment they get from their wives.


    How exactly did they start abusing their husbands? If women bug their husbands, they should get a beating?

    Quote
    So the verse was revealed... which really meant: you can't hit your wives unless they're really causing you trouble that even after going through the self-punishing process of abstaining from sex with them, they're still causing trouble only then you can hit them.


    WHAT kind of trouble is a woman causing thats allowing a man to beat her?

    Quote
    OF COURSE, hitting wives is unacceptable under any circumstances even after a self-punishing waiting period (abstaining from sex).. but this was for that case ONLY.... things have already gotten out of hand... note how the wives were damaged enough because of past maltreatment that they felt like exacting revenge on their husbands... the whole situation was hopeless and that solution was for that specific case.  


    Please describe what you mean by "things getting out of hands". Give me a valid reason when the beating mentioned in 4:34 is applicable.
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #275 - January 15, 2010, 05:09 PM
    I think debunker has already made the point that slavery is detested in Islam - it just may have been impractical for Muhammad to abolish the practice in 7th century Arabia. We humans invented slavery, maybe it was also up to us to abolish it.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #276 - January 15, 2010, 05:10 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 05:05 PM
    You're obviously not reading anything I write.


    And your obviously talking in circles and trying to rationalise wife beating.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #277 - January 15, 2010, 05:13 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 05:07 PM
    No, actually he didn't know anything beyond normal people and it is even stated in the Quran... do you want verses?

    Doesnt this also prove he could be an imposter?  There is such a thing as a Jerusalem complex, whereby thousands of people have travelled to Jerusalem to claim that they are a new prophet.  Nowadays there is a specific mental asylum in Jersusalem set up for this disorder.

    Can either muslim explain why they are 100% sure the prophet was not suffering from the same problem, and he wasnt simply a product of the time?
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #278 - January 15, 2010, 05:14 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 15, 2010, 05:09 PM
    I think debunker has already made the point that slavery is detested in Islam - it just may have been impractical for Muhammad to abolish the practice in 7th century Arabia. We humans invented slavery, maybe it was also up to us to abolish it.


    What nonsensical jibberish. The Quran clearly states you cannot make haram that which allah has made halal. Slavery is halal according to Islam. Full stop. Detesting something is meaningless if you don't have the moral clarity to say that this practice is HARAM. So what I can glean from your reasoning is that Mo was a moral coward who detested slavery but didn't have the balls to break the practice or he very much approved of it.

    And your argument about practicallity is ridiculous if you look at the other things that Mo had plenty of bravery about.. he eliminated the entire religion of Arabia! If he can destroy his peoples basic system of beliefs, abolishing slavery is small potatoes. Seriously, we're not stupid, so go use these sophistic bullshit arguments on some ignorant n00bs. Roll Eyes
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #279 - January 15, 2010, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 15, 2010, 05:09 PM
    I think debunker has already made the point that slavery is detested in Islam - it just may have been impractical for Muhammad to abolish the practice in 7th century Arabia. We humans invented slavery, maybe it was also up to us to abolish it.


    We humans invented adultery and female infanticide too - that didn't stop Allah outlawing them, why couldn't he do the same with slavery?
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #280 - January 15, 2010, 05:15 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 15, 2010, 05:09 PM
    I think debunker has already made the point that slavery is detested in Islam - it just may have been impractical for Muhammad to abolish the practice in 7th century Arabia. We humans invented slavery, maybe it was also up to us to abolish it.

    Yet Allah feels compelled to intervene when it comes to eating pork? Getting cirumsized, or lifting our trousers above our ankles?
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #281 - January 15, 2010, 05:18 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on January 15, 2010, 05:15 PM
    We humans invented adultery and female infanticide too - that didn't stop Allah outlawing them, why couldn't he do the same with slavery?


    lol Because Islam is a barbaric religion of medieval morals and Mo is a medieval warlord. Allah being imaginary can only really have the same ethical beliefs as his creator.... Muhammad.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #282 - January 15, 2010, 05:20 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 15, 2010, 04:52 PM
    Well would it not have made more sense to include these 'rituals & sins' in the Quran if the prophet didnt want people writing hadith?

    You seem to be under the impression that I agree with that Hadith to the letter... my understanding of that Hadith is this: the only *sacred* book for Muslims is the Quran.

    Quote
    If circumcision is not mentioned in the quran, but pork being haram is, how do you know whether to accept circumcision is not sacrilgious to Allahs perfect creation?


    First off God NEVER said that man's creation was *perfect*, in fact in one verse God specifically says man was created WEAK.. best of forms, but still imperfect and weak.

    Now, as for changing God's creation, please give me the verse number and I'll look it up (I need context).


    Quote
    This mind-control mechanism of Islam just seems to be flawed at a raft of issues whenever you look at it beyond the superficial and in any depth.


    explain.

    Quote
    I dont think its even well written for a man-made book.  tbh I dont even think most muslims have read it all, because they focus on reading it in a foreign language.  As no-one knows what true Islam is, this may help its longevity, although 1400 years is not a long time in the history of religions.


    Dude, Jews, and despite their being a minority in any community they lived in and despite the severe persecution throughout the ages, they stayed Jews to this day. It is very naive of anyone to think that Islam might die one day... No Abrahamic religion ever died (including the Judiasm despite the small numbers and severe persecution)
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #283 - January 15, 2010, 05:23 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on January 15, 2010, 05:10 PM
    And your obviously talking in circles and trying to rationalise wife beating.


    Dearest Iblis,

    I noticed that whatever I said never gets through to you.. do you think it's my poor communication skills?
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #284 - January 15, 2010, 05:24 PM
    Quote from: Cheetah on January 15, 2010, 05:15 PM
    We humans invented adultery and female infanticide too - that didn't stop Allah outlawing them, why couldn't he do the same with slavery?


    Because as debunker already mentioned in quite some detail abolishing slavery was just not as practical as forbiding female infanticide or adultery - a lot of Arabians relied on their slaves for livelihood and likewise some slaves may have relied on their keepers for food and shelter.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #285 - January 15, 2010, 05:27 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on January 15, 2010, 05:18 PM
    lol Because Islam is a barbaric religion of medieval morals and Mo is a medieval warlord. Allah being imaginary can only really have the same ethical beliefs as his creator.... Muhammad.


    you and your charming ways Iblis
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #286 - January 15, 2010, 05:27 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 04:56 PM
    First off, the false doctrine that ALL verses are for all time was invented by Muslims.


    So it's not said in the quran?  Wink

    Quote

    Now, this verse was revealed for a specific case back then. Arabs, of course, were in the habit of beating the hell out of their wives. At one occasion, one of women complained to the prophet and he immediately exclaimed: "the worst of you (men) are the worst towards their wives and the best are the best towards their wives"... Meaning? No beating whatsoever... Of course, the women, after years of opression, started abusing their husbands in revenge, knowing that they could not beat them. So, now the men went to the prophet complaining about the treatment they get from their wives.


    Provide this hadith, as the only hadith I have seen of a woman complaining about her treatment, he sent her back to said husband regardless with instructions to sleep with him regardless. 



    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #287 - January 15, 2010, 05:28 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 05:23 PM
    Dearest Iblis,

    I noticed that whatever I said never gets through to you.. do you think it's my poor communication skills?


    Debunker, you mentioned that women were getting out of "hands" so that verse was revealed to keep women under control.  Now tell me what were they doing that they deserved a beating from their husbands.
    If you're so devout, how come I am not dead?
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #288 - January 15, 2010, 05:28 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 15, 2010, 05:09 PM
    I think debunker has already made the point that slavery is detested in Islam - it just may have been impractical for Muhammad to abolish the practice in 7th century Arabia. We humans invented slavery, maybe it was also up to us to abolish it.


    No I don't think he has.   He has made a pick'n'mix cherry coated versions that fits well with his modern day morals.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #289 - January 15, 2010, 05:28 PM
    And a lot of Arabians couldn't afford to raise every child they had, hence infanticide primarily of girls.  There were no doubt Arabians who lived in unhappy marriages too but divorce would have left the woman destitute and maybe deprived children of their mother, hence adultery.

    There are complications to outlawing any ingrained behaviour, but if its immoral and you are any kind of God worth worshipping, you don't regulate the damn thing - you ban it.
    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #290 - January 15, 2010, 05:28 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 15, 2010, 05:09 PM
    I think debunker has already made the point that slavery is detested in Islam - it just may have been impractical for Muhammad to abolish the practice in 7th century Arabia. We humans invented slavery, maybe it was also up to us to abolish it.

    Then why was it was imperative for Muhammed to have at least 2 slaves?  
    Was this also part of this grand plan to take things slowly?  
    What about the lives of these 2 enslaved human beings owned by Prophet Muhammed ?

    How do you really know this the prophet of God, other than him telling you so?
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #291 - January 15, 2010, 05:30 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on January 15, 2010, 05:14 PM
    What nonsensical jibberish. The Quran clearly states you cannot make haram that which allah has made halal. Slavery is halal according to Islam. Full stop. Detesting something is meaningless if you don't have the moral clarity to say that this practice is HARAM. So what I can glean from your reasoning is that Mo was a moral coward who detested slavery but didn't have the balls to break the practice or he very much approved of it.

    And your argument about practicallity is ridiculous if you look at the other things that Mo had plenty of bravery about.. he eliminated the entire religion of Arabia! If he can destroy his peoples basic system of beliefs, abolishing slavery is small potatoes. Seriously, we're not stupid, so go use these sophistic bullshit arguments on some ignorant n00bs. Roll Eyes


    If you're not stupid, you have nothing to worry about dude. take a chill pill.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #292 - January 15, 2010, 05:30 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 15, 2010, 05:09 PM
    I think debunker has already made the point that slavery is detested in Islam - it just may have been impractical for Muhammad to abolish the practice in 7th century Arabia. We humans invented slavery, maybe it was also up to us to abolish it.

    Then why did Muhammed have at least 2 slaves for himself?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #293 - January 15, 2010, 05:31 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 05:04 PM
    Suppose:

    1- prophet A came to a people living in the 7-th century and told them an angel of God visited me and gave me a message of him.
    2- prophet B came to the same people and told them the Earth you're standing upon is a ball, and it is actually rotating around itself and around the sun as we speak.

    Which of the two prphets do you think those people are more likely to accept?



    Neither. That is why your prophet needed a sword, to make people more "accepting"

    An all powerful God would have numerous ways to get his point across if he wanted to abolish slavery. He was allegedly quite assertive before the "prophet", with floods and plagues and turning people into salt and such. Why take such a cautious and ineffective approach to abolishing the evils of slavery?

    The people of Sodom and Gommorah were quite attached to their ways, but God didn't pussy-foot around with them did he?

    God's responsibility would have been  to provide a clear message as to what is right and wrong.

    Not soften that message in order for it to me more palpable to evil-doers.
    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #294 - January 15, 2010, 05:31 PM
    Quote from: taraC on January 15, 2010, 05:08 PM
    Ok so who decides which verses are applicable today and which aren't? I thought you said you don't really listen to scholars..

    How exactly did they start abusing their husbands? If women bug their husbands, they should get a beating?

    WHAT kind of trouble is a woman causing thats allowing a man to beat her?

    Please describe what you mean by "things getting out of hands". Give me a valid reason when the beating mentioned in 4:34 is applicable.


    Very briefly: women, upon the first ruling of the prophet, abused their husbands... that Quranic ruling stopped both from abusing each other... it practically made it impossible for a husband to beat his wife (suspended sentence)... can you imagine a husband feeling like beating his wife yet he holds his breath, until he first talks to her and then punish himself abstaining from sex with her and then still stay hell-bent on beating her? If the husband is abusive then he'd beat her without going through this lengthy process of waiting... If he's not then he'd never have the chance to beat her.

    Finally, it was specific only for that case, since the wives were already psychologically damaged... they had to release the years of abuse by revenge and that why the verse was revealed... it was basically saying: "men! you really can't practically beat your wives... women: Stop your revenge campaign."    
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #295 - January 15, 2010, 05:32 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on January 15, 2010, 05:09 PM
    I think debunker has already made the point that slavery is detested in Islam - it just may have been impractical for Muhammad to abolish the practice in 7th century Arabia. We humans invented slavery, maybe it was also up to us to abolish it.


    I don't think that was the the case really.  Many Muslim powers made heavy use of slaves throughout history, and slavery still goes on in various Islamic countries...  Again show me examples of where Muhammad freed slaves do didn't want to convert to Islam...
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #296 - January 15, 2010, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 05:31 PM
    Very briefly: women, upon the first ruling of the prophet, abused their husbands... that Quranic ruling stopped both from abusing each other... it practically made it impossible for a husband to beat his wife (suspended sentence)... can you imagine a husband feeling like beating his wife yet he holds his breath, until he first talks to her and then punish himself abstaining from sex with her and then still stay hell-bent on beating her? If the husband is abusive then he'd beat her without going through this lengthy process of waiting... If he's not then he'd never have the chance to beat her.

    Finally, it was specific only for that case, since the wives were already psychologically damaged... they had to release the years of abuse by revenge and that why the verse was revealed... it was basically saying: "men! you really can't practically beat your wives... women: Stop your revenge campaign."    


    Bollocks...  Even if it said that men could not beat their wives literally, (but evidently it does) the action still symbolises the superiority of man over his wife.  The quran still places emphasis on the man, as your passage shows.  There is hardly anything about what the wife can do.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #297 - January 15, 2010, 05:36 PM
    Quote from: debunker on January 15, 2010, 05:20 PM

    First off God NEVER said that man's creation was *perfect*, in fact in one verse God specifically says man was created WEAK.. best of forms, but still imperfect and weak.

    OMG!  You're saying he created us weak on purpose.  Then why torture us in the after life for infinity?
    Quote
    Dude, Jews, and despite their being a minority in any community they lived in and despite the severe persecution throughout the ages, they stayed Jews to this day. It is very naive of anyone to think that Islam might die one day... No Abrahamic religion ever died (including the Judiasm despite the small numbers and severe persecution)

    Hate to tell you this dude, but Abrahmism aint that old when it comes to religions.  Take a look at hinduism?  Does that make Hinduism the best?  Also people need religion, that why it wont die out.  Not because Islam is anything special, look at all the other religions alive & well today.

    Religion brings hope & makes people believe wishes can come true.  Islam & Abrahmism add fear to this mix.  Period.
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  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #298 - January 15, 2010, 05:36 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on January 15, 2010, 05:27 PM
    So it's not said in the quran?  Wink


    yeah... show me the verse that proves me wrong.

    Quote
    Provide this hadith, as the only hadith I have seen of a woman complaining about her treatment, he sent her back to said husband regardless with instructions to sleep with him regardless.

     

    Before I go through the effort of looking it up for you, you have to first make position known. (And I presume you speak Arabic, so I'll look it up in Arabic, after you explain your position).
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Hello people
     Reply #299 - January 15, 2010, 05:37 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on January 15, 2010, 05:30 PM
    Then why did Muhammed have at least 2 slaves for himself?


    Did he? according to what - the hadith?
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
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