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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: What do you think is the best option for us?
  • Legalizing all drugs
  • Legalizing only soft drugs like marijuana
  • Keeping the laws as they are right now
  • Making laws tougher with longer sentences for dealers

 Topic: Legalizing Drugs

 (Read 21127 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3 45 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #90 - March 04, 2010, 06:28 PM

    I haven't read through the entire thread, but it seems as though some are looking at the legalisation of drugs from he perspective that 'individual freedom trumps all'.  I see this as flagrantly irresponsible.

    Human beings have responsibilities not only to themselves and to their bodies, but to the people around them. It is this social responsibility that builds civic society and allows it to prosper. What would happen if, say, 30% of the UK's population were to start injecting themselves with heroin? Are we to allow this selfish 30% their personal freedom, despite the negative consequences it will have on the people around them? Absent fathers? Distant mothers? It is no wonder that familial and societal ties are so fraught in this country; the "me me me!!" mentality must be kept in check.

    *cue onslaught*


    You realize the point that panoptic and IA are missing without needing to abandon our liberal principles. Well said.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #91 - March 04, 2010, 06:33 PM

    Why is there such a fear of hard drugs and getting hooked? Some people (particularly artists) enjoy the stimulation.
    All the great bands were high out of their minds when making their best music.

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #92 - March 04, 2010, 06:33 PM



    I acknowledge that if people really want to get their own way, there is sometimes little we can do. But if we can safely assume that a person isn't in the right frame of mind, or isn't thinking straight, then I believe the state should be able to use some amount of pressure.




    I hate to say this, really I do.  I've been restraining myself this whole time, but how is it that you are behind peoples free right to choose incest as a sexual/relationship choice, but you are not ok with the legalization of all drugs based on that same freedom of choice arguement?

    I mean, I would argue that both scenarios carry an equal amount of risk, and an equal amount of pain for family members, so what is the difference?

    Serious question?   wacko

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #93 - March 04, 2010, 06:33 PM

    Legalise them, provide them on the NHS for existing addicts (for heroine/crack) and introduce hugely detterant sentances for selling them outside of the legalised routes.

    You'd win the "war on drugs" in 2 months.


    Nice suggestion. Two points:

    1. Aren't controlled doses of these drugs available for some addicts who are on a doctor's programme anyway? I thought they were. Drug addicts don't just get thrown in jail like some people on here seem to imply.

    2. Legalizing these drugs would destroy the NHS programmes...

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #94 - March 04, 2010, 06:35 PM

    I hate to say this, really I do.  I've been restraining myself this whole time, but how is it that you are behind peoples free right to choose incest as a sexual/relationship choice, but you are not ok with the legalization of all drugs based on that same freedom of choice arguement?

    I mean, I would argue that both scenarios carry an equal amount of risk, and an equal amount of pain for family members, so what is the difference?

    Serious question?   wacko


    It's coz James likes daddy-daughter sex, but mary-gee-wanna makes him sadface.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #95 - March 04, 2010, 06:40 PM

    It's coz James likes daddy-daughter sex, but mary-gee-wanna makes him sadface.


    Made me LOL enough to holler at my bro to come see this post too.  Cheesy

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #96 - March 04, 2010, 06:41 PM

    I hate to say this, really I do.  I've been restraining myself this whole time, but how is it that you are behind peoples free right to choose incest as a sexual/relationship choice, but you are not ok with the legalization of all drugs based on that same freedom of choice arguement?

    I mean, I would argue that both scenarios carry an equal amount of risk, and an equal amount of pain for family members, so what is the difference?

    Serious question?   wacko


    Because somebody can live a prosperous life whilst being in an incestual relationship. But they can't when they're hooked on hard drugs. I respect the "freedom of choice" argument because I'm a liberal myself. I just don't think individual freedoms is the trump card in all situations.

    I might have come accross as quite Conservative in this thread. Please note I don't agree with the way that drugs are being dealt with today. I mostly agree with Friedman in the video that begins this thread. I just dread to imagine what the consequences could be if we were to make cocaine and heroin legal. If anyone says I have no evidence that it will do any harm, then you're just arguing from ignorance because the reason there is no evidence is obvious: these drugs aren't legal anywhere in any state in the world (as far as I know) so we can't see what the effects would be. But I can imagine what the effects might be... I'm just not convinced that society is ready *yet* for such a huge change in the laws of their country with regards to drugs such as cocaine and heroin.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #97 - March 04, 2010, 06:43 PM

    who decides when society is ready j4? when will you give society the chance to grow up?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #98 - March 04, 2010, 06:47 PM

    Because somebody can live a prosperous life whilst being in an incestual relationship. But they can't when they're hooked on hard drugs. I respect the "freedom of choice" argument because I'm a liberal myself. I just don't think individual freedoms is the trump card in all situations.


    The reverse could be true too, I'd say a hell of alot of singers/artists/actors and stuff, lead quite prosperous lifes (before the fall/quitting of said drug) whilst being hooked on hard drugs, and an incestous couple could be just as likely to be mooching off the state, leading no real life whatsoever.

    Would it not depend upon the person more than the choice?

    Quote

    I might have come accross as quite Conservative in this thread. Please note I don't agree with the way that drugs are being dealt with today. I mostly agree with Friedman in the video that begins this thread. I just dread to imagine what the consequences could be if we were to make cocaine and heroin legal. If anyone says I have no evidence that it will do any harm, then you're just arguing from ignorance because the reason there is no evidence is obvious: these drugs aren't legal anywhere in any state in the world (as far as I know) so we can't see what the effects would be. But I can imagine what the effects might be... I'm just not convinced that society is ready *yet* for such a huge change in the laws of their country with regards to drugs such as cocaine and heroin.


    I voted for only soft drugs to be legalized and although I'm leaning in total freedom of choice, there is still a part of me that is maybe conditioned too much, to agree with full legalization.  However by the end of this thread I could be in favour, it's certainly on my mind.  yes

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #99 - March 04, 2010, 06:51 PM

    Perhaps when the youth has a bit more sense than it currently does.

    I've come to realize that a lot of members of society just refuse to grow up. They act and think like children. I hate to say it, but they need to be kept in check until they show some initiative.

    For example, I nearly got run over the other day by an idiot who thought it was a good idea to dunk his head under the steering wheel (or something like that). What a genius, eh? In a stateless society, NOBODY would have this idiot kept in check. Do you think we should trust this idiot and "let him grow up" independent of any action from the state?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #100 - March 04, 2010, 06:53 PM

    so you are saying that we should all be reduced down to the level of that idiot? because idiots need policing and need to be controlled, everybody else should just suck it up?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #101 - March 04, 2010, 06:57 PM

    The reverse could be true too, I'd say a hell of alot of singers/artists/actors and stuff, lead quite prosperous lifes (before the fall/quitting of said drug) whilst being hooked on hard drugs, and an incestous couple could be just as likely to be mooching off the state, leading no real life whatsoever.

    Would it not depend upon the person more than the choice?



    Ofcourse. There is never not an exception to the rule. I'm sure there are some people who if they were allowed to carry knives on the street, it would actually be a benefit to society, because they would only use that knife to protect other members of society or use the knife as a tool to save people who are in a tricky spot. What do you propose we do? Assess each and every person and decide whether they're responsible enough to carry knives in the street or possess drugs for their personal use? Ofcourse not, that would be impractical.


    Quote
    I voted for only soft drugs to be legalized and although I'm leaning in total freedom of choice, there is still a part of me that is maybe conditioned too much, to agree with full legalization.  However by the end of this thread I could be in favour, it's certainly on my mind.  yes


    Yes, that pretty much my position too. However, I'm not convinced that society would cope with the legalization of drugs like cocaine and heroin. More thought needs to be put into this.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #102 - March 04, 2010, 06:59 PM

    so you are saying that we should all be reduced down to the level of that idiot? because idiots need policing and need to be controlled, everybody else should just suck it up?


    Can you explain yourself further? Needles to say, drivers who remain on the road won't be stopped and taken to the police station for driving on the pavement...

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #103 - March 04, 2010, 07:10 PM

    The analogy is obviously not perfect because the state is necessary for an organized society. But if you get into a discussion over anarchy here then I won't have time to reply.


    The analogy is implicit, but indeed it has anarchist implications. But the point, to refute your analogy, remains: the state is never your friend. It's a system of violence, standing above society, however democratic it is, that's what it will remain.

    Quote
    As I said, it's a lot more different than mere dislike.


    Granted - but one can replace 'dislike' with any expression more appropriate, the principle stands.

    Quote
    But it's ok for drug dealers to abuse members of society because technically the member of society's choice to start taking the drugs was a "free" one. I don't buy it.


    Drug dealers and their alleged 'abuse' of society (besides the ones who are actual criminals) never came into it. After all, I would like legalization, not mere decriminalization.

    Quote
    They become addicted to these drugs because the drugs themselves are addictive in one way or another. People's addictions "get out of hand". There's a difference between a matter getting out of hand and a person making a free, rational choice. The drugs themselves encourage more and more drug taking.


    It can take some time for substances to become physically addictive (aside from say nicotine or cocaine). Alcohol would be a notable example. Regardless of however addictive it is, people choose to take such-or-such poisin once... And then they may well choose to again. Continuing in this fashion physical compulsion at some point exerts itself. But I consider them to have made a choice at the end of the day. Addictions are also conquered. Which most of the time requires help. Nonetheless, help or not, they made the decision. People are sometimes required to detox, but if they don't really want to they'll be heating up spoons again pretty shortly.

    Quote
    The difference is, you see the state as a separate entity to the people and thus you regard all laws as aliens forcing our hands. In a truly democratic state, the law is not like how you see it.


    State is typically defined as: an institution, or set of institutions, with a monopoly on the legitimate use of force in a given territory. [My preferred just-as-accurate one being: a tool in the hands of the ruling class.]

    The state is not my friend - it has, and as long as it exists, will always have a gun behind my back. As long as it remains and it is such I would prefer the trappings of civil/political rights that it will afford me. [Until of course it is usurped, finally falls back upon itself.]



    Quote
    By the first paragraph I mean people often are in clear need of help. The state is there to provide that help.


    Against their will?

    Quote
    I acknowledge that if people really want to get their own way, there is sometimes little we can do. But if we can safely assume that a person isn't in the right frame of mind, or isn't thinking straight, then I believe the state should be able to use some amount of pressure.


    Pressure is one thing, legal force is another. If it possible to talk someone out of it then all those means should be used. But that is different from what you suggested previously. To refer to your analogy, I doubt few people wouldn't try and forcibly stop someone they cared about jumping off a cliff. But I don't want the government assuming such a role.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #104 - March 04, 2010, 07:15 PM

    Can you explain yourself further? Needles to say, drivers who remain on the road won't be stopped and taken to the police station for driving on the pavement...


    my point is, you are saying that policing is required because there are idiots on the road, but what of those that aren't idiots? why should they have to be just as nannied by the police too?

    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #105 - March 04, 2010, 07:19 PM

    The state being a "system of violence" and "having a gun behind your back"... Panoptic, It's clear our difference is too ingrained to be solved by talking about this particular issue.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #106 - March 04, 2010, 07:20 PM

    You may well consider that reductionist, and it may carry out more functions, but when it boils down to it, that's what it is - it can't exist without violence or the threat of violence over its subjects.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #107 - March 04, 2010, 07:23 PM

    my point is, you are saying that policing is required because there are idiots on the road, but what of those that aren't idiots? why should they have to be just as nannied by the police too?


    But they aren't nannied with regards to driving on the pavement because they're clever enough to drive on the road... If you're talking about another law that you have in mind, then that is obviously an issue you have with another law, not this law... the law against driving on the pavement due to lack of care and attention should still stand.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #108 - March 04, 2010, 07:27 PM

    You may well consider that reductionist, and it may carry out more functions, but when it boils down to it, that's what it is - it can't exist without violence or the threat of violence over its subjects.


    No social interaction can exist without violence or the threat of violence, whether the state exists or not. For example there is an implicit threat of violence whenever anybody is in a room with another person; that if say the first person was to suddenly punch the second person, then the second person would react in a similarly violent fashion in self-defence. The idea is that we're generally more civilized than that and don't have to even think about resorting to violence.

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #109 - March 04, 2010, 07:37 PM

    No social interaction can exist without violence or the threat of violence, whether the state exists or not.


    Are you sure? I reckon most _human_ relations don't rely upon the use or threat of violence.

    Quote
    For example there is an implicit threat of violence whenever anybody is in a room with another person; that if say the first person was to suddenly punch the second person, then the second person would react in a similarly violent fashion in self-defence.


    I'm quite able to be in a room with someone unable to defend themselves without hurting them.

    Quote
    The idea is that we're generally more civilized than that and don't have to even think about resorting to violence.


    Do you disagree?

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #110 - March 04, 2010, 08:00 PM

    Are you sure? I reckon most _human_ relations don't rely upon the use or threat of violence.


    So you're saying that if someone brandished a knife and threatened you, you wouldn't react with violence? Or are you saying nobody would do that in a stateless society?

    Quote
    I'm quite able to be in a room with someone unable to defend themselves without hurting them.

    Do you disagree?


    Erm, no? What's your point? I've been stopped by the police on a number of occasions and never have they used violence or force against me. Now if I had just mugged somebody or if they just saw me attack somebody with a weapon, that would obviously be a different matter, wouldn't it?

    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #111 - March 04, 2010, 09:02 PM

    so you are saying that we should all be reduced down to the level of that idiot? because idiots need policing and need to be controlled, everybody else should just suck it up?

    That guy was not an idiot - he was trying to run James over anonymously

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #112 - March 04, 2010, 09:21 PM

    So you're saying that if someone brandished a knife and threatened you, you wouldn't react with violence?


    The real point follows:

    Quote
    Erm, no? What's your point? I've been stopped by the police on a number of occasions and never have they used violence or force against me. Now if I had just mugged somebody or if they just saw me attack somebody with a weapon, that would obviously be a different matter, wouldn't it?


    The point is that you claimed precisely: No social interaction can exist without violence or the threat of violence, whether the state exists or not. I beg to differ: most of my interactions with others don't rely on the threat of violence/coercion.

    And you had to stop, because? Because they could use force against you, arrest you, jail you if they wanted. If police couldn't do that they wouldn't exist. They have power _over_ you. That's what the state is.

    The difference between your relation to the state - which you can't opt out of, has ultimate power over you (up to killing you, even), and can tell you what to do and back it up with force - to other members of society with whom you have, in principle and by and large voluntary relations with, aren't compelled by way of recourse to physical violence to associate with... etc., etc...

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #113 - March 04, 2010, 09:25 PM

    I reckon if we just discovered how to make alcohol, it would probably not even be in mass distribution but because it is in so engrained in western culture, governments have never ever put strict regulations on it as they have with weed and other drugs. I know alcohol is not as harmful as other drugs but still is a drug nonetheless and is consumed en masse within the West and other countries too. Meh, I think if we did legalise all drugs it would be costly in the long run just because hard drugs would be more easily accessible to the general than it is now obviously, fuck that shit. Bottom line they ruin people's lives at the end of the day.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #114 - March 04, 2010, 09:34 PM

    Video Games also ruin peoples lives. Lets ban that.

    What about gambling? That ruins lots of lives. Ban it.

    Oh and don't forget walking around in an underwear outside in -30C weather. That should be illegal.

    Also can't forget about skydying, bungee jumping, and golfing. Terrible activities that could seriosly harm you!

    And lets also ban porn. Lots of people suffer addictions and it can destroy the minds of young men and boys. Ban it.

    Etc etc.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #115 - March 04, 2010, 09:38 PM

    Video Games also ruin peoples lives. Lets ban that.

    What about gambling? That ruins lots of lives. Ban it.

    Oh and don't forget walking around in an underwear outside in -30C weather. That should be illegal.

    Also can't forget about skydying, bungee jumping, and golfing. Terrible activities that could seriosly harm you!

    And lets also ban porn. Lots of people suffer addictions and it can destroy the minds of young men and boys. Ban it.

    Etc etc.


    Your comparing drugs such as cocaine and heroin to skydiving, bungee jumping and golf? 
    lol, just lol. I can't believe u just said golf.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #116 - March 04, 2010, 09:39 PM

    Well they ruin lives. I don't think we can argue about that.

    Or at least they have a strong possibility of ruining lives.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #117 - March 04, 2010, 09:40 PM

    I was joking about the skydiving and bungee jumping one. Golf.. i stand by. What a terrible affliction that is. Surely a bunch of grown men wacking around a tiny white ball reveals some sort of a mental dysfunction?

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #118 - March 04, 2010, 09:52 PM

    Well they ruin lives. I don't think we can argue about that.

    Or at least they have a strong possibility of ruining lives.


    Ye gambling is bad, none of those comparable to the damage drugs do. Porn is a psychological addiction. Drugs are physical addictions and physical damage which costs the state money. I'm not trying to gunu down here Iblis but my personal opinion on this is (and I see your point with a lot of things ruin peoples' lives) legalising drugs will have be an unnecessary hassle for the state and people in general. I know drugs are being trafficked anyway but legalising drugs will inevitably is my fear more hcildren getting into contact with drugs and so on. It is kind of like the binge-drinking culture that has developed in this country especially with young people. We will see the same shit with drugs if they are legalised.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Legalizing Drugs
     Reply #119 - March 04, 2010, 09:56 PM

    Legalizing is not the same as allowing it to be in the aisles at Safeway. It can be legalized and heavily controlled and heavily taxed. It can be limited to certain establishments and subject to even more stringent restrictions than tobacco.

    Though personally, I want them to stay illegal, it's just these arguments are really meaningless when you consider the various equally dangerous and harmful activities that are completely legal. I guess it boils down to whether or not you think the state should be the babysitter for immature individuals.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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