Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #270 - March 21, 2010, 04:04 PM

I hate football...

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #271 - March 21, 2010, 04:06 PM

me too..

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #272 - March 21, 2010, 04:08 PM

Quote from: IsLame on March 21, 2010, 03:56 PM
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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #273 - March 21, 2010, 04:08 PM

I hate creationist football. They keep shifting the goal posts.

*drum roll please*
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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #274 - March 21, 2010, 04:23 PM

Quote from: NineBerry on March 21, 2010, 03:44 PM
The text was meant for a lay audience, that's why there are no details given. The works of Doolittle are referenced who has worked on the blood clotting mechanism of vertebrates for more than 20 years and in the meantime identified all the details by comparing the systems and the genomes of different vertebrae species.

If you have access to scientific papers, you can read them all.

I've read some of his original work and agree he has done some impressive work showing when a lot of the proteins became involved by comparing genomes.

However, it is important to realise that the majority of his work was done from vertebrates upwards and thereofre the studies do not explain in any detail how the original blood clotting components came about. It is also important to realise that this pathway is quite unique in that a lot of the proteins in the pathway are very similar so can esily be explained by gene duplication - the majority of pathways are not like this and are much more complex.

Again, this particluar pathway, because of its simplicity is rather easy to explain. Cellular pathways really don't get much simpler than this one. But I'd much rather see explanation for pathways that actually are complex (which I was asking for in the first place) - it's these pathways that are the problem and I would like to see a solution too. Even an explanation of a very basic but complex process such as DNA replication or DNA reapir would be great.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #275 - March 21, 2010, 04:29 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on March 21, 2010, 04:08 PM
I hate creationist football. They keep shifting the goal posts.

*drum roll please*

hey you were all free to read the article yourself which was posted by one of you guys not by me.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #276 - March 21, 2010, 04:34 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 04:29 PM
hey you were all free to read the article yourself which was posted by one of you guys not by me.

It was a joke Abu :(

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #277 - March 21, 2010, 04:34 PM

No it's ok, you're like my bro - you can say anything you want and I wouldn't mind

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #278 - March 21, 2010, 04:42 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 04:34 PM
No it's ok, you're like my bro - you can say anything you want and I wouldn't mind

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #279 - March 21, 2010, 04:42 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 04:23 PM
However, it is important to realise that the majority of his work was done from vertebrates upwards and thereofre the studies do not explain in any detail how the original blood clotting components came about.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC150214/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2130927

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 04:23 PM
It is also important to realise that this pathway is quite unique in that a lot of the proteins in the pathway are very similar so can esily be explained by gene duplication - the majority of pathways are not like this and are much more complex.

Just because they are more complex, doesn't mean that their evolution cannot be explained by the same mechanisms. In fact, if I remember my school years, the things we looked at were actually much less complex. Why? Simple: You can't get into too much detail with beginners.

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 04:23 PM
Again, this particluar pathway, because of its simplicity is rather easy to explain. Cellular pathways really don't get much simpler than this one. But I'd much rather see explanation for pathways that actually are complex (which I was asking for in the first place) - it's these pathways that are the problem and I would like to see a solution too.

LOL. Behe doesn't think it is not complex enough:
http://www.arn.org/docs/behe/mb_indefenseofbloodclottingcascade.htm

Also, you haven't answer my question regarding the Alps or the marbles

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #280 - March 21, 2010, 06:15 PM

''Just because they are more complex, doesn't mean that their evolution cannot be explained by the same mechanisms. In fact, if I remember my school years, the things we looked at were actually much less complex. Why? Simple: You can't get into too much detail with beginners.

LOL. Behe doesn't think it is not complex enough: ''

I think if we are all being honest the blood clotting cascade is as simple as a pathway gets. And if we are being even more truthful explanations for pathways that actually are complex do not exist because we simply do not have the explanations at the moment - cutting edge scientists do not have any detailed explanations for them at the moment (and it's not because they wouldn't be able to explain it to beginners, lol!). Indeed the reasons for this is that we can't explain it in the same way as the blood clotting cascade - the nature of these pathways is completely different from the linear nature of the blood cotting pathway.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #281 - March 21, 2010, 06:31 PM

I don't think the marbles analogy is at all relevant. We are discussing how extremely sohpisticated bits of cellular machinery were put together by evolution. We have the ability to sequence genomes of all sizes from large to small. So in a sense we at least have a rough history of what happened to the 'marbles'. This has not aided in our detailed understanding of how complex cellular pathways were built by evolution.

Regarding the alps we know the basic mechanisms by which the peaks and dents occur. So what? How does this detract from the fact that we have no clue of how even some very basic yet complex pathways were built by evolution. According to how the current theory stands the probability of a lot of these complex pathways being built by evolution is very close to zero.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #282 - March 21, 2010, 06:31 PM

Duh. How would you know their evolution would be different if you don't know how they evolved.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #283 - March 21, 2010, 06:34 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 04:23 PM
However, it is important to realise that the majority of his work was done from vertebrates upwards and thereofre the studies do not explain in any detail how the original blood clotting components came about. It is also important to realise that this pathway is quite unique in that a lot of the proteins in the pathway are very similar so can esily be explained by gene duplication - the majority of pathways are not like this and are much more complex.

Again, this particluar pathway, because of its simplicity is rather easy to explain. Cellular pathways really don't get much simpler than this one. But I'd much rather see explanation for pathways that actually are complex (which I was asking for in the first place) - it's these pathways that are the problem and I would like to see a solution too. Even an explanation of a very basic but complex process such as DNA replication or DNA reapir would be great.

So do you accept that simple DNA pathways could have evolved?

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #284 - March 21, 2010, 06:36 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 06:31 PM
I don't think the marbles analogy is at all relevant. We are discussing how extremely sohpisticated bits of cellular machinery were put together by evolution. We have the ability to sequence genomes of all sizes from large to small. So in a sense we at least have a rough history of what happened to the 'marbles'. This has not aided in our detailed understanding of how complex cellular pathways were built by evolution.

We can only analyse the genomes of species living today. To exactly know the evolutionary history a certain trait, one would have to be able to know the genome of past species.

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 06:31 PM
Regarding the alps we know the basic mechanisms by which the peaks and dents occur. So what? How does this detract from the fact that we have no clue of how even some very basic yet complex pathways were built by evolution. According to how the current theory stands the probability of a lot of these complex pathways being built by evolution is very close to zero.

We know how blood clotting and some other mechanisms evolved. And we know the mechanisms that are at work. We know how mutations can influence the work of the genes. We know about gene duplication. We know how genes are activated and deactivated. We know all the mechanisms.

The examples of the Alps or the marbles are very apt. Just because you can't explain a certain complex instance of result, doesn't mean the mechanisms you know so far are wrong.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #285 - March 21, 2010, 06:40 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 10:02 AM
It might seem that simple, and I can see why people would argue this way, but the fact is, it really isn't this staightforward at all. As I've mentioned a few times already, processes that can be defined as evolution can and do occur in nature (resistance to antibotics and vaccines, the citrate experiment etc.). However it is vitally important to realise that these 'micro scale evolutionary processes' all produce changes to existing cellular pathways. I can not stress enough that building a cellular pathway from scratch is a totally different ball game - and neither has this been demonstarted by experiment (i.e. the building of a completely novel cellular pathway) nor do we have a step by step account of how the complex cellular pathways we know about were built by evolution.

No, it is not a totally different ball game. It is exactly the same ball game. There is no difference. It is still all the accumulation of slight modifications to what currently exists. Your mistake is to be wowed by the complexity of what currently exists.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #286 - March 21, 2010, 06:49 PM

Os,

Actually it is a completely different ball game. Accumulation of slight modification cannot explain inticrate pathways such as mitosis for example - although there are much more complex pathways and structures this is just one of the basic but vital ones. If you think accumulation of slight modification can explain these pathways, please provide a molecular description.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #287 - March 21, 2010, 06:51 PM

Sorry for interrupting, but I can't help but feel that the discussion in this thread is going around in circles, and though I ought to say that.

EDIT: 777th post, what are the chances.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #288 - March 21, 2010, 06:53 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 06:49 PM
Os,

Actually it is a completely different ball game. Accumulation of slight modification cannot explain inticrate pathways such as DNA replication or mitosis for example - although there are much more complex pathways and structures these are just two basic but vital ones. If you think accumulation of slight modification can explain these pathways, please provide a molecular description.

I'll see what I can find, but I have to say that all you are doing is making an assertion that has no support.

@Infidel: it's always like that with creationists.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #289 - March 21, 2010, 06:55 PM

Quote from: NineBerry on March 21, 2010, 06:36 PM
We know all the mechanisms.

Course we do mate. That's why there is no molecular description of how these complex cellular pathways were built by these mechanisms - or perhaps scientists can't be bothered because they wouldn't be able to explain it to the rest of us. lol

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #290 - March 21, 2010, 07:13 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 21, 2010, 06:53 PM
I'll see what I can find, but I have to say that all you are doing is making an assertion that has no support.

@Infidel: it's always like that with creationists.

My assertions are based on lack of good scientific explanations for the issues being discussed.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #291 - March 21, 2010, 07:27 PM

Which is no base at all, really. It's another standard creationist objection: "We don't currently know everything therefore nothing could have happened."

Obviously I'm paraphrasing but that is the gist of it. It's just the Argument from Personal Incredulity all over again. It's a well known logical fallacy.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #292 - March 21, 2010, 07:31 PM

Quote from: AbuYunus2
However, it is important to realise that the majority of his work was done from vertebrates upwards and thereofre the studies do not explain in any detail how the original blood clotting components came about. It is also important to realise that this pathway is quite unique in that a lot of the proteins in the pathway are very similar so can esily be explained by gene duplication - the majority of pathways are not like this and are much more complex.

Again, this particluar pathway, because of its simplicity is rather easy to explain. Cellular pathways really don't get much simpler than this one. But I'd much rather see explanation for pathways that actually are complex (which I was asking for in the first place) - it's these pathways that are the problem and I would like to see a solution too. Even an explanation of a very basic but complex process such as DNA replication or DNA reapir would be great.

Quote from: IsLame on March 21, 2010, 06:34 PM
So do you accept that simple DNA pathways could have evolved?

A straightforward Yes/No would suffice

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #293 - March 21, 2010, 07:32 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on March 21, 2010, 06:55 PM
Course we do mate. That's why there is no molecular description of how these complex cellular pathways were built by these mechanisms - or perhaps scientists can't be bothered because they wouldn't be able to explain it to the rest of us. lol

It needs time. You will find papers on some aspects of mitosis, but you can hardly expect us knowing all the details when the necessary technology has been around for only a few decades.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #294 - March 21, 2010, 09:54 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 21, 2010, 07:27 PM
Which is no base at all, really. It's another standard creationist objection: "We don't currently know everything therefore nothing could have happened."

well actually this is not the objection at all. what you are saying is that modifying a complex cellular pathway and building a complex cellular pathway from scratch can both occur by the same basic mechanism. What I'm saying is that the levels of complexity of the two processes are not even comparable and therefore you need to give some evidence from experiment or observation showing this to be the case. Evolution may have built these pathways but until we can give a description of exactly how, it is appropriate to remain sceptical.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #295 - March 21, 2010, 10:08 PM

Ok, but then if you are going to be "Appropriately Sceptical^TM" about the possibility of complex systems evolving then surely you should be equally sceptical about the possibility of them not evolving.

What I mean by that is you are, presumably, postulating a deity far more complex than any biological system. Since you have no plausible way of even beginning to account for such an entity, and saying it always existed is just a cop out, then you are left with no explanation at all.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #296 - March 21, 2010, 11:09 PM

@AbuY, from the view of an objective outsider (I'm agnostic and i would prefer believing in a higher power but only based on evidence), I think you're purposefully avoiding asking your colleagues or relative scientists who would be able to answer your question and give you a proper explanation. Surely if you really want to know the answer, you would at least discuss it with scientist friends or colleagues who can answer you.
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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #297 - March 22, 2010, 07:25 AM

''@AbuY, from the view of an objective outsider (I'm agnostic and i would prefer believing in a higher power but only based on evidence), I think you're purposefully avoiding asking your colleagues or relative scientists who would be able to answer your question and give you a proper explanation. Surely if you really want to know the answer, you would at least discuss it with scientist friends or colleagues who can answer you.''

Liberated, I do appreciate your sentiment. But rest assured if I thought my colleagues could give a satisfactory answer I would have asked them about this already a long time ago. As a matter of fact I remember having a discussion with one of my professors on a complex DNA repair pathway we used to work on (The Fanconi Anaemia DNA repair pathway). A lot of the proteins appear all of a sudden in vertebrates (with no homologs in lower organisms) and every single protein is required for the pathway to work. I remember discussing the pathway with him and he commented 'it's as if these proteins came down together from outer space'. These were his exact words - he beleives in evolution but was of course speaking figuratively.

The fact is, these are things evolutionary biologists themselves have yet to explain - if anyone would have an explanation it is these guys, not the people I work with.

In addition, Nineberry and Os certainly sound like they know what they are talking about and I would be surprised if they are not biological scientists themselves.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #298 - March 22, 2010, 07:35 AM

Quote from: osmanthus on March 21, 2010, 10:08 PM
What I mean by that is you are, presumably, postulating a deity far more complex than any biological system. Since you have no plausible way of even beginning to account for such an entity, and saying it always existed is just a cop out, then you are left with no explanation at all.

Well that's one possibility. Another possibility, is that we have yet to uncover some radical biological mechanism that could support evolution theory that can account for biological complexity of a lot of cellular pathways without each and every one of them of them seeming like a scientific miracle.

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Re: Can natural selection + mutations really cause formation of amazing new traits?
Reply #299 - March 22, 2010, 07:46 AM

Actually Os is a janitor (a bit like Matt Damon in Goodwill Hunting sans the genius intelligence) and 9Berry is a European Nascar driver. Not doing too well I must say with Nascar not being a very popular "sport" in Europe.
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