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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: Your position on prostitution is that we should....?
  • Ban it
  • Legalize it but keep procuring (pimping and brothels) illegal
  • Legalize both prostitution and procuring but with no regulation
  • Legalize it and regulate it

 Topic: Prostitution

 (Read 19407 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #60 - April 08, 2010, 10:44 PM

    Thanks allat, you've covered a number of points very succinctly. The fact that many of them are so far removed from one another historically or culturally yet remain so connected to the issue says a lot about how complicated the question of prostitution is, which strengthens my initial assertion that simple laws aren't necessarily good solutions to complex social issues. A more nuanced approach is necessary. Unfortunately from a political perspective it's a lot more work to do it right, so let's just ban it. Who knows, might even get us a few more votes from religious communities!

    -Most feminists who say they are against prostitution as a whole, disregard the *class issues* that lead poorer women into that profession. Without addressing why that profession is the only option for those women, white, upper-class feminism ends up aligning itself with right-wing, religious approach (i.e. sex is bad).

    A number of your points had crossed my mind whilst typing my initial post, but this one I wrote almost a paragraph on before removing completely. My cynicisometer was reading dangerous levels by the end of it, so I thought better of it. Yes, Harriet Harman was mentioned. whistling2

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #61 - April 08, 2010, 10:47 PM

    What's Harriet Harman got to do with it? (Pardon my ignorance)
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #62 - April 08, 2010, 10:53 PM

    Watch the first 2 minutes Harriet Harman is mentioned in it.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYlMIzBfoXY

  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #63 - April 08, 2010, 11:00 PM

    Legalize and regulate it. I think some of the prices women charge are unreasonably high. £500 for 2 hours is completely over the top, and should be considered abuse. 


    Damn right, it's a god-damned swindle. I'll never shop for sex in Amsterdam again.
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #64 - April 08, 2010, 11:47 PM

    I agree with thinkfree. I recently wrote a paper on this very subject. I would post it here, but I'm shopping it around for publication. Once it's published, I'll share it here. But it has many of the same points as what thinkfree posted.

    <snip>
    -Traditional heterosexual marriage is based on the same principle: the man gets access to a woman's womb, the woman gets access to a man's wallet. Where in prostitution a man rents a woman's sexual and personal services, in traditional (older-fashioned) marriage, the man buys her outright for life.

    One minor point: it works both ways, at least to a certain extent. Gaining access to resources is nothing to be sneezed at and can be taken advantage of. It's not a simple deal like slavery.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #65 - April 08, 2010, 11:51 PM

    Never said it's slavery. Like I said, in both prostitution and in traditional heterosexual marriage, the woman gets access to the man's wallet, and the man gets access to a woman's womb. Difference is, in prostitution it's temporary and in traditional heterosexual marriage, it's permanent (at least as traditions would have it).

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #66 - April 08, 2010, 11:54 PM

    Of course there is such a thing as sex slavery, and trafficking of sex slaves, often very young girls. It happens all over the world. In Thailand, Burma and other places, girls as young as 10 are kidnapped from or sold by impoverished, illiterate parents and forced, raped and abused into becoming sex slaves. The majority end up with HIV. There are also many cases of sex slavery in e.g. Pakistani prisons.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #67 - April 08, 2010, 11:55 PM

    Yeah the "buys her outright for life" line is a bit iffy though, IMO anyway. I realise you are simplifying to make a point, but marriage in reality is often a lot more complex than what you describe. Depends on the culture and the reasons for the particular marriage in question.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #68 - April 08, 2010, 11:58 PM

    Well that's why I was careful to say "traditional" marriage. Y'know the one where the husband is the sole provider of money, the woman stays home and has babies and cleans and cooks.

    Most marriages today are not as skewed. Most men also help with household chores and raising of kids, most women also work in some capacity or another. Even when the woman stays home to take care of the kids, there's often more of an equality of respect between them, than in the past.

    It's traditional marriage that is espoused by all the major religions that can be said to be akin to permanent prostitution.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #69 - April 09, 2010, 12:02 AM

    Akin in some ways but with important distinctions, again depending upon the particular marriage and culture in question.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #70 - April 09, 2010, 12:18 AM

    Yup.

    Case in point, Islam: Men are the maintainers of women.

    If that's not institutionalized prostitution, I don't know what is.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #71 - April 09, 2010, 12:32 AM

    all sexual courtships and sexual relationships are prostitution in the sense that good and/or services are exchanged and one of those goods/services is sex.  The only difference is the perception that society places on the goods and services exchanged.  money in the form of cash for sex = prostitution,  money in the form of a dinner and movie = dating,  exchange in the form of creating an atmosphere that creates passion and excitement without long term commitment = fling.  Also on the perceptions of the participants old man giving money/diamonds/trips to a younger women = sugar daddy/ gold digger,  older woman exchanging trips/goods/etc to a younger man = cougar.  The societal view on marriage and its reality as a lifetime prostitution has already been covered.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #72 - April 09, 2010, 12:37 AM

    Yes but the important difference in a lot of cases is that prostitution is only an exchange of money for services, and that is not at all an accurate description of many marriages. So although it can be a good analogy in some cases it is not all that impressive as a broad generalisation.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #73 - April 09, 2010, 12:39 AM

    To clarify: I have known women who have been married and also have been prostitutes, either at the same or different times in their lives. I can assure you that they do not view marriage and prostitution as being identical.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #74 - April 09, 2010, 12:45 AM

    Of course, because there's love involved in marriage (usually) when it isn't in prostitution (usually). That's a different matter.

    But traditionally, women have exchanged their sexuality for financial goods/security, that's what I'm talking about. It's considered bad when it's done on a temporary basis (prostitution) but okay when done on a permanent, institutionally and socially regulated basis.

    I don't think prostitution is bad in itself either. Just like I don't think marriage is bad in itself. Individual cases of both, when involving abuse, violence, threats etc., those may be bad, but my point was the double standards applied by society to one kind of sex for financial gain transaction compared to another.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #75 - April 09, 2010, 12:50 AM

    To clarify: I have known women who have been married and also have been prostitutes, either at the same or different times in their lives. I can assure you that they do not view marriage and prostitution as being identical.


    Again, os, I hope you understand I'm *not* saying they're identical. Especially most marriages today, after decades of social progress.

    But if you study traditional marriage, I think it may be clearer what I'm talking about here. Traditional marriages as they were practiced in the west (in the past) and many that are practiced in many other parts of the world today.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #76 - April 09, 2010, 12:59 AM

    Oh I understand your point quite clearly. I'm trying to point out assumptions and exceptions for clarity. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #77 - April 09, 2010, 01:04 AM

    I understand you allat, and I understand Os' view too. I've always felt Islam's idea of marriage is nothing more then glorified prostitution. Traditional marriages are very similar (may depend on your definition of traditional).

    Of course prostitution itself is more complicated, but they have their similarities.
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #78 - April 09, 2010, 01:13 AM

    Well I think both are complicated. In some ways prostitution is simpler. In other ways, not.

    Anyway here's another spanner to throw into the works. Given that whoring is not most people's first choice of occupation (to put it mildly) and given that money is the usual motivation (although there may be odd exceptions) there is a strong inclination on the part of prostitutes to avoid regulation.

    What I mean is that if the business is legal and regulated you will have to pay tax on your earnings. This means that for the same return you spend more time with your face jammed in some idiot's crotch than you would if your business was not legal and regulated. This is usually regarded as not a good thing, funnily enough.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #79 - April 09, 2010, 01:21 AM

    That is a good point. I think allowing them to set their own prices might help reduce that risk somewhat.
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #80 - April 09, 2010, 01:21 AM

    I understand you allat, and I understand Os' view too. I've always felt Islam's idea of marriage is nothing more then glorified prostitution. Traditional marriages are very similar (may depend on your definition of traditional).

    Of course prostitution itself is more complicated, but they have their similarities.


    Exactly. Traditional marriage is not practiced much in the west, but it's a reality. Marriage has a long history based in property exchange, and it's always been about the woman exchanging her life, body, womb, for a man who was expected to pay for her and any kids she had.

    Traditional biblical marriage is the same. Islamic traditional marriage too.

    Well I think both are complicated. In some ways prostitution is simpler. In other ways, not.

    Anyway here's another spanner to throw into the works. Given that whoring is not most people's first choice of occupation (to put it mildly) and given that money is the usual motivation (although there may be odd exceptions) there is a strong inclination on the part of prostitutes to avoid regulation.

    What I mean is that if the business is legal and regulated you will have to pay tax on your earnings. This means that for the same return you spend more time with your face jammed in some idiot's crotch than you would if your business was not legal and regulated. This is usually regarded as not a good thing, funnily enough.


    I don't think most prostitutes are against regulation. First of all, no surveys have been taken to prove this either way, but if you look at the conditions of work most of them work under - being trafficked, being addicted to drugs (often, not always), being beaten and abused by pimps, having their incomes taken away by pimps (many go through this), being ostracized in society, having no legal worker laws to protect them, being abused by cops and authorities, going to prison for their work etc., I don't see how paying taxes would be the bigger problem for them. Some sure, the ones who are not as marginalized in one way or another, but really, most would be happy to get legal protection.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #81 - April 09, 2010, 01:23 AM

    conditions for prostitutes would improve also the loss of the prostitute's profits lost to the pimp for "protection" from the law, legal fees, time wasted in jail, criminal records, ect.  would improve as well. 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #82 - April 09, 2010, 01:24 AM

    Cant argue with that. The tax does provide worthy benefits.
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #83 - April 09, 2010, 01:29 AM

    Oh sure, they would be happy to get legal protection. No argument there. That's a slightly different issue. For a start, laws against physical assault still apply to prostitutes just as they apply to anyone else. Beating the shit out of a prostitute is illegal simply because beating the shit out of anyone is illegal. Most courts in civilised countries would agree with that.

    The problem of not being able to report assault because of it being related to an illegal act (where prostitution is illegal) can be dealt with by decriminalisation. That still doesn't mean that most prostitutes want "regulation" as such. It depends on circumstances and on the individual, but many of them specifically choose to operate outside any regulation. I'm speaking from the perspective of this country, where prostitution is not illegal and where I have known several women involved in the business.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #84 - April 09, 2010, 01:39 AM

    Oh sure, they would be happy to get legal protection. No argument there. That's a slightly different issue. For a start, laws against physical assault still apply to prostitutes just as they apply to anyone else. Beating the shit out of a prostitute is illegal simply because beating the shit out of anyone is illegal. Most courts in civilised countries would agree with that.


    There are actually many accounts of prostitutes who reported being assaulted who were then raped, beaten and abused by cops, in western countries. Other countries, like Muslim countries, well, we can imagine what goes on there.

    The problem of not being able to report assault because of it being related to an illegal act (where prostitution is illegal) can be dealt with by decriminalisation. That still doesn't mean that most prostitutes want "regulation" as such. It depends on circumstances and on the individual, but many of them specifically choose to operate outside any regulation. I'm speaking from the perspective of this country, where prostitution is not illegal and where I have known several women involved in the business.


    Well I think decriminalization would be a great start. Then at least they could be counted as legal workers who could organize and speak up themselves without fear of legal repurcussions.

    Take the case of Canada. Prostitution is decriminalized here. However, it's not regulated. Also, communicating for sex services, having a place where prostitution takes place, and living off the money made via prostitution are still illegal. That means that prostitutes have to go through seedy, underground methods to get clients, they are not allowed to have a safe, familiar place to bring their clients to (leaving them vulnerable to each client's choice of location), and they have to lie about their incomes. This is the half-assed decriminalization of Canada. I don't know what the law is in Australia.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #85 - April 09, 2010, 01:40 AM

    Just to clarify, in the Australian states where prostitution is legal generally the laws are much like this:

    Anyone can set themselves up in their own business as a sole operator. That's legal. Pimping for someone else is not at all legal and is very seriously frowned upon, purely because of the potential for it being abused.

    Believe it or not, it is also illegal to drive a prostitute to a job even if she asks you to. The reason for this is that the law is attempting to stop pimping, or more specifically cases where prostitutes are shipped around from job to job without any way out. That's a good intention, but it has some weird and undesirable consequences.

    For example, if a pro (I'm getting tired of typing the full word Tongue ) hails a taxi to travel to and from a job it is legal for the taxi to take the fare, but only if the taxi driver does not know that the person is travelling to or from a job. Of course, it is often blatantly obvious particularly if the woman uses that taxi company regularly, so this leaves both the pro and the driver potentially open to prosecution.

    Another example: say your friend asks you to drive her to a job because she's feeling a bit iffy about this one and it's way out of town. Legally you can't do this if you know why she wants a lift. Go figure.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #86 - April 09, 2010, 01:41 AM

    There are actually many accounts of prostitutes who reported being assaulted who were then raped, beaten and abused by cops, in western countries. Other countries, like Muslim countries, well, we can imagine what goes on there.

    That can happen to anyone, whether or not they are in any marginalised group.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #87 - April 09, 2010, 01:44 AM

    That can happen to anyone, whether or not they are in any marginalised group.


    Yes and it does. Difference is prostitutes and other marginalized groups are often targeted because it's known that they don't have legal rights, and they won't be believed or supported by the society.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #88 - April 09, 2010, 01:44 AM

    Oh yeah, brothels are legal here but are tightly regulated. So in that sense "pimping" is allowed but they have to pass very stringent guidelines.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Prostitution
     Reply #89 - April 09, 2010, 02:31 AM

    Oh sure, they would be happy to get legal protection. No argument there. That's a slightly different issue. For a start, laws against physical assault still apply to prostitutes just as they apply to anyone else. Beating the shit out of a prostitute is illegal simply because beating the shit out of anyone is illegal. Most courts in civilised countries would agree with that.

    The problem of not being able to report assault because of it being related to an illegal act (where prostitution is illegal) can be dealt with by decriminalisation. That still doesn't mean that most prostitutes want "regulation" as such. It depends on circumstances and on the individual, but many of them specifically choose to operate outside any regulation. I'm speaking from the perspective of this country, where prostitution is not illegal and where I have known several women involved in the business.


    there are two sides to the equation as well.  We have covered the supply side, prostitutes, but we haven't covered the demand side, janes and johns.  Janes and johns want decriminalization and regulation as well.  One, because going to a prostitute will no longer result in a criminal mark and there is a safety that  the prostitute is clean and remove the anxiety of going to the "bad" part of town and run the risk of getting robbed.  If the janes and johns decide to operate outside of regulation then that is their prerogative, they are running the risk that are associated with that.  Just like when you buy your food out of a taco shop on the corner instead of FDA certified McDonald's you run more of a  risk of getting various food sicknesses ( I apologize for the Americanisms) 

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
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