Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


What happens in these day...
by akay
Today at 08:12 AM

New Britain
Today at 06:00 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 07:14 PM

ماذا يحدث هذه الايام؟؟؟.
by akay
Yesterday at 08:47 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
June 04, 2024, 03:00 AM

Lights on the way
by akay
June 03, 2024, 04:08 AM

What's happened to the fo...
June 02, 2024, 02:12 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
June 01, 2024, 03:35 PM

General chat & discussion...
May 31, 2024, 08:51 AM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
May 25, 2024, 05:42 AM

Is Iran/Persia going to b...
by zeca
May 20, 2024, 11:23 AM

Best Quran translation ev...
May 19, 2024, 02:20 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq

 (Read 8296 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #30 - March 28, 2013, 01:19 PM

    This is a very narrow viewpoint. Our Kurd/Shia community also supoorted the war when it first started. My dad is one of the many here who spent nearly a decade in jail before the gulf war broke out. Then another four years in a refugee camp (most of my friends,including my sister were born in either jail or refugee camps), total of 14 years of being "exiled" (not complaining about this since we are in a safe country now).
    The Shia and Kurd community supported the war and as soon as Saddam was killed, we literally flocked back to Iraq in large groups because our dad's were no longer on any most wanted lists.
    Also, after the removal of Saddam, the prisons "opened", meaning that our families went from prison to prison collecting relatives (or in our case, after 14 years of waiting, being told that our men were all recorded to have been murdered in 1991).

    I mean I'm just drawing out a picture of the type of families that support the war, and it's those who really suffered (as you can imagine, the pro Saddam Sunnis are butt hurt that their genocidal leader was taken out).
    Also, under any other circumstance (including now), Kurds and Iraqis don't get along, in fact, Iraqis are against the idea or giving any land to the Kurds, and the Kurds resent Iraq for the mistreatment, but this exile has brought our community together even if temporarily.

    The fact is, *now* after a decade of invasion (everyone was excited and happy by 2004), people who supported this war are the ones saying that under all the horrors of Saddam, there were no random car bombings and suicide bombings and poison in the food and all of these new horrors that have lasted 10 years after Saddam's death. The war lasted 10 years longer than it should have and has induced more suffering than what people had initially gone through. People *hate* Saddam, but the American's receive the kind of hatred that Saddam would have envied.  

    Saddam executed Shia religious leaders and his men posted videos of high ranking scholar assassinations as warning to dissenters. People talked about that forever after they were free to do so. But now there is a different kind of murder, and it is no longer calculated. Suicide bombers enter into wherever they please: markets, government buildings, holy places, and they just murder dozens each week - 10 years straight of this.
    There is something much scarier about this because now anyone is a target, as opposed to calculated murders and disappearances of anti Saddam citizens in the past - where you know that if you were involved in anti government activity, there is a chance you could "disappear" if a mole tells the police. As you can imagine, those who didn't suffer under Saddam (most of West Baghdad, for example, who collected all the benefits of supporting him) think we are traitors for supporting a war that caused them to lose their security. I wont be a dick and call it karma, but they are still incapable of seeing past their own noses o.O

    Anyway this is my summary/rant about why people's support for the war died about a decade ago. I am extremely anti war. I believe a country needs activism from within. For example in Iraq now, there is not enough push to get people working on infrastructure. This new useless government needs to make programs where people work on roads and rebuild. But the war allowed one other negative aspect, and that is stealing. Everyone drives some hot new car, and yet, there aren't any proper roads! I wonder when they will wake up and start putting their investment into rebuilding...
    Now, the only way this can be fixed is if people get their shit together and start their own activism to rebuild, focus energy on that rather than mourning that damn Hussein 24/7, or at least use that energy to create charity workers or something (yeah right) because the government sure as hell wont do anything .


    Well, I pointed out that the war was poorly administered and with little or no regard to how prone a country like Iraq is to racial and religious polarization. Things haven't got better, but that's not what I'm claiming either. We're talking about a country (consisting of irreconcilable tribes and sects) numbed down for 40 years or so, now been subjected to an atmosphere with which its sects can claim autonomy. Of course this is dangerous. But this is what happens when you have one dictator trying to solve sectarian conflicts with annexation and annihilation. No one realistically expected these conflicts not to surface after the liberation of Iraq. No one expected these things to dissolve in thin air.

    I have to object btw to how you described Saddam's terror as calculated. If there was a characteristic to this man, it was not calculation but caprice. Pure unpredictability and caprice. His surge in 1979 reveals some of this. Randomly picked victims and randomly picked killers. Sometimes the killer was a friend or family of the victim. Caprice at its ugliest.

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #31 - March 28, 2013, 01:37 PM

    Quote
    I have to object btw to how you described Saddam's terror as calculated. If there was a characteristic to this man, it was not calculation but caprice. Pure unpredictability and caprice. His surge in 1979 reveals some of this. Randomly picked victims and randomly picked killers. Sometimes the killer was a friend or family of the victim. Caprice at its ugliest.


    Besides what I already mentioned, I can tell you that he publicly hanged Jews, and that is to demonstrate his love for Palestinians. (I don't know if you're aware of this love affair between Saddam and Palestine?), basically our Jewish neighbours fled and it caused a lot of pain for non political people,  but can you provide other examples? I'm genuinely interested because I disagree based on what I know.
     Iraqi Jews in Israel are just like the Iranians and Kuwaitis, generally hate Iraq because of Saddam's actions, in his bid to create this Iraqi nationalism that can only be enjoyed by a certain type of Iraqi (criteria set up by the Baathis)
     I clearly see his murders to have purpose and the proof is in what Iraq looks like today - with the richest cities being the concentration of pro Saddam Iraqis and the areas that look like the 1400s being the anti Saddam Shia areas (particularly where the massacres took place).


    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #32 - March 28, 2013, 01:40 PM

    And why do you suppose that it was the responsibility of the American tax payer to finance this noble objective? Why must our sons and daughters be martyred for this glorious cause? The world is better off without Saddam, but the same could be said of dictators the world over. Why is it the responsibility of my government to determine which dictators are tolerable and which require immediate deposal? I don't believe that the ends justify the means or that the ends somehow lend nobility to otherwise less than noble intentions.


    Is this a "since we can't do everything, we should do nothing" type of statement?

    To the rest of your post, well I of course I don't think the US people has a particular obligation to fund anything. No more than the British people during the incarceration and trial of Liberian war criminal Charles Taylor. The obligation is a human one.

    Nor do I think that George Bush had the noblest of intentions. But he was genuinely worried about the fact that significant oil resources was in the hands of a psychopath. Were you not? He was worried about Saddam's resurrected interest for the same genocidal weapons he used in the Anfal-campaign. Were you not? Self-interest and Iraqi interests weren't mutually exclusive here. I can't see how either parts would profit from having Saddam Hussein with huge amounts of oil and chemical weapons. Would you really want to be around to see what he would be capable of doing?

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #33 - March 28, 2013, 01:56 PM

    Quote
    Is this a "since we can't do everything, we should do nothing" type of statement?


    No. It was a prelude to my next statement:

    Quote
    The world is better off without Saddam, but the same could be said of dictators the world over. Why is it the responsibility of my government to determine which dictators are tolerable and which require immediate deposal?



    Quote
    Self-interest and Iraqi interests weren't mutually exclusive here. I can't see how either parts would profit from having Saddam Hussein with huge amounts of oil and chemical weapons. Would you really want to be around to see what he would be capable of doing? 



    Was the 12 year debacle that we call the Iraq war the only way of achieving the objective of deposing Saddam?
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #34 - March 28, 2013, 02:16 PM

    Besides what I already mentioned, I can tell you that he publicly hanged Jews, and that is to demonstrate his love for Palestinians. (I don't know if you're aware of this love affair between Saddam and Palestine?), basically our Jewish neighbours fled and it caused a lot of pain for non political people,  but can you provide other examples? I'm genuinely interested because I disagree based on what I know.
     Iraqi Jews in Israel are just like the Iranians and Kuwaitis, generally hate Iraq because of Saddam's actions, in his bid to create this Iraqi nationalism that can only be enjoyed by a certain type of Iraqi (criteria set up by the Baathis)
     I clearly see his murders to have purpose and the proof is in what Iraq looks like today - with the richest cities being the concentration of pro Saddam Iraqis and the areas that look like the 1400s being the anti Saddam Shia areas (particularly where the massacres took place).



    No Jila, I'm not saying that Saddam Hussein couldn't be a purposeful politician or strategist. He had certain Baathist principles he rigorously maintained.

    I'm rather saying that he was so committed to his own megalomania that he did more evil than necessary. Even if he knew this one day would bring retribution, he felt it was worth it for its own sake. Evil for the sake of evil.

    Look at the annexation of Kuwait, a rather ponzi scheme with which he wanted to repair the economy after the Iran war with Kuwaiti oil. He invaded the country under the pretext of them stealing oil. All he needed for his own interests to be fulfilled was to steal as much oil as he could and leave the country. What he did, under the full knowledge of international retribution, was annex Kuwait and announce it as the 19th province of Iraq. What for?

    Here you have the choice between tapping an inferior state for oil under the pretext of retribution and silently walking off OR annexing this country and claiming it for yourself, only to please your megalomaniac delusions knowing very well you'll be bombed the fuck off anyway. You choose the former and you're at least rational. You choose the latter and you're highly capricious and unpredictable. This was also obvious from the absolute caprice the Fedayeen Saddam chose their victims.

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #35 - March 28, 2013, 02:32 PM

    No. It was a prelude to my next statement:



    Was the 12 year debacle that we call the Iraq war the only way of achieving the objective of deposing Saddam?



    Well it was certainly the only way of deposing Saddam and his sons, while dissolving what proved to be the strongest insurgents in Iraq, Saddam Husseins 40 000 strong gang of sadistic psychopaths known as the Fedayeen Saddam (Saddam's Men of Sacrifice, responsible for the casual "secret police" type of everyday-murder in the totalitarian state), capturing and trying Ali Hassan Al Majid (Chemical Ali) for his central role in killing 182 000 Kurds, capturing and trying Sultan Hashim Ahmad for the same offence, making sure Iraq's huge oil resources did not end up in the hands of people like these, making sure these human beings never could develop the same weapons they used in the Anfal-campaign etc.

    The only way of achieving all of these goals, which are at least my primary reasons for supporting the war, would be through a military intervention yes. What do you think would solve all these questions?

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #36 - March 28, 2013, 02:44 PM

    I don't disagree about the evil for the sake of evil. In the example I used, why publicly kill those people? Why not just give homes to the Palestinians as he did anyway? He went that step further to make a point and use humans as an example of his power. Basically these were people who stayed in Iraq, as opposed to 400k Iraqi Jews that went to Israel.
    He placed people in a position to deliberately hate each other, with all the examples stated above. Though regarding Kuwait, you can use your theory well. However, at a domestic level, his actions caused immense distrust and fear in what I believe is his bid to be the one saviour. He also bombed the shrines but did not destroy them. A fake bombing that caused some mess, that is all. I believe that coupled with the video-taped assassinations of the clerics, this was (again) an example of his methodology keep people in fear but offer them his salvation - and many Shias took the bait and joined the Iraqi army too, especially the middle class who became doctors for the army.
     If you're not the chosen kind, there isn't salvation for you, you mean nothing, you will be gassed, etc... but if you tick a few of criteria, you can join the saviour.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #37 - March 28, 2013, 02:51 PM

    I don't believe he imagined in his wildest dreams that he could be stopped.

    [is there a way to delete posts?]

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #38 - March 28, 2013, 03:17 PM

    I don't disagree about the evil for the sake of evil. In the example I used, why publicly kill those people? Why not just give homes to the Palestinians as he did anyway? He went that step further to make a point and use humans as an example of his power. Basically these were people who stayed in Iraq, as opposed to 400k Iraqi Jews that went to Israel.
    He placed people in a position to deliberately hate each other, with all the examples stated above. Though regarding Kuwait, you can use your theory well. However, at a domestic level, his actions caused immense distrust and fear in what I believe is his bid to be the one saviour. He also bombed the shrines but did not destroy them. A fake bombing that caused some mess, that is all. I believe that coupled with the video-taped assassinations of the clerics, this was (again) an example of his methodology keep people in fear but offer them his salvation - and many Shias took the bait and joined the Iraqi army too, especially the middle class who became doctors for the army.
     If you're not the chosen kind, there isn't salvation for you, you mean nothing, you will be gassed, etc... but if you tick a few of criteria, you can join the saviour.


    Well, yes this seems like Saddam alright. You seem to get this well.

    If I can ask you a question. Let us imagine no one invaded Iraq. Saddam Hussein would've remained in power and with time left the seat for his son Uday Hussein. What kind of future would have predicted for Iraq? I have for myself a pretty clear intuition there...And btw would you support an eventual war with North Korea?

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #39 - March 28, 2013, 03:26 PM

    Quote
    And btw would you support an eventual war with North Korea?


    I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Minimow, as well as who should fund it and why, and what sales pitch you would give to the tax payers of that nation if you support war.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #40 - March 28, 2013, 03:31 PM

    Quote
    The only way of achieving all of these goals, which are at least my primary reasons for supporting the war, would be through a military intervention yes. What do you think would solve all these questions?


    That’s precisely the point. Why is it my country’s responsibility to solve for all of these questions?

    Saddam is gone. Great. Without the presence of a huge army to maintain order, the country would descend into chaos. Fine.

    If George Bush, out of the goodness of his heart, decided to fund this war from his own personal reserves, then God bless him. But that was not the case.

    This war happened at a price and someone had to foot the bill, with dollars and with lives. I can’t make a convincing enough argument to present to the American people that it should have been them (or the citizens of any other countries that made up the "Coalition of the Willing").

  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #41 - March 28, 2013, 03:40 PM

    Don't have to be a Islamic extremist to feel bitter towards America.
    http://www.alternet.org/world/falluja-babies-and-depleted-uranium-americas-toxic-legacy-iraq?page=0%2C1


    America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq...  depleted Uranium.... true there are dangers from any radioactive material., that link says
    Quote
    ..........According to Dr Savabieasfahani, metal contaminants in war zones originate from bombs and bullets, as well as from other explosive devices. Metals, most importantly lead, uranium, and mercury, are used in the manufacture of munitions, and all of these contribute to birth defects, immunological disorders, and other illnesses.....

    Mercury  and lead is used in the manufacture of munitions  ..

    I would like to have a link on that. I am not certain that mercury and lead is used in manufacturing war ammunition .. As far as depleted Uranium is concerned, let me give some links..

    Iraq's depleted uranium clean-up to cost $30m as contamination spreads

    US war Veterans  and  depleted uranium

     Civil use of depleted uranium

    And this link http://fhp.osd.mil/du/  gives  detailed study on depleted uranium


    Anyways what is important for me is ..  I would like to know one thing  about  America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq..

    Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti  born on 28 April 1937 and hanged on 30 December 2006). He was the fifth President of Iraq,  from 16 July 1979 until 9 April 2003. ..

    The   invasion of Ba'athist Iraq  was started by US off A started on 20 March 2003  and Saddam left his palace on  9 April 2003...

    Quote
    Some U.S. officials also accused Iraqi President Saddam Hussein of harboring and supporting al-Qaeda,  but no evidence of a meaningful connection was ever found. Other proclaimed reasons for the invasion included Iraq's financial support for the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, Iraqi government human rights abuses,   and an effort to spread democracy to the country.

    On 16 March 2003, the U.S. government advised the U.N. inspectors to exit Iraq and the following day Bush issued a 48-hour ultimatum demanding Saddam and his sons to go into exile. On 20 March the American-led coalition conducted a surprise military invasion of Iraq without declaring war.

      Those are Lies of Bush Govt of USA and  Legacy of colonialism

    Now question is How many Iraqis died in War?  

    What are the year wise causalities  on that war from  March 2003 to December 2006 when he was hanged?  

    And what are casualty numbers after his death until to day in  2013?

    Those are the toxic legacy of CRIMINALS AND WAR CRIMINALS..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #42 - March 28, 2013, 03:48 PM

    @Minimow

    The same way it was. Constant mind games, disposing of the useless people, offering wealth to possible allies, divide and conquer. And of course, the million or so "exiled" (people like me) who would be dying to visit, stuck on the outside wishing that somehow the regime gets toppled. The compliant will survive, and tactics like name changing in the West to get into Iraq will still be used (it was a risky but popular method). The issue is that the war stopped being about Saddam after a couple of years and Iraq was faced with a new enemy. There was no longer any predictability (well you'd argue against that I imagine) and the rules of survival had changed.

    Quote
    I have for myself a pretty clear intuition there

     You do because I already mentioned it Tongue

    I kinda get annoyed at this dichotomy where it's either the evil American's/conspiracy theories vs. one sided pro arguments. It's like all the important details that are actually relevant get swept under the carpet and then everyone is bickering back and forth within a limited spectrum. There is a timeline involved and it's important to consider because it shows when things go good, then take a turn for the worst. I don't believe America cares about Iraq, not the slightest. I simply believe that they did something (no matter why), that was of benefit to the grater community and the good lasted very little before it was a royal f up. I mean is Abu Guraib/Bagram supposed to be modern denazification or something? Also, America brought with them this whole crusade v Islam BS and then all the outside Arabs started pouring in to fight. They have a completely different narrative, and in their eyes, Sunni Iraqis are traitors for not stomping around like thugs trying to impose that ugly wahabi shariah.

    Quote
    And btw would you support an eventual war with North Korea?

    No.
    You?

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #43 - March 28, 2013, 08:27 PM

    That’s precisely the point. Why is it my country’s responsibility to solve for all of these questions?

    Saddam is gone. Great. Without the presence of a huge army to maintain order, the country would descend into chaos. Fine.

    If George Bush, out of the goodness of his heart, decided to fund this war from his own personal reserves, then God bless him. But that was not the case.

    This war happened at a price and someone had to foot the bill, with dollars and with lives. I can’t make a convincing enough argument to present to the American people that it should have been them (or the citizens of any other countries that made up the "Coalition of the Willing").


    Well, I wouldn't burden any specific country with the responsibility here, though I would say that the United States didn't do any Iraqi a favor when Bush senior encouraged a revolt against Saddam Hussein in the early 90's, just so he could retreat when only Kuwait was secured. Leaving hundreds of thousands of Shiites in the South and Kurds in the North completely bare to the anger of Saddam Hussein, once the riots caught fire. The consequence of which were absolutely hideous. I would say, that the United States at least owed Iraq some correction of that piece of cowardness (at best) and deceit (at worst).

    But generally speaking, who should stand up for a helpless people subjected to the compulsions of a megalomaniac psychopath? Generally speaking, not the United States, because that would suggest a moral superiority on their part, but the international community. The issue is that Saddam Hussein fulfilled all the requirements in the genocide convention which requires that military actions should be taken. This was a part of the judicial argumentation in the trial of Milosevic and the military intervention against Serbia. So here we have it, the international community had for almost two decades, a moral and legal responsibility to emancipate Iraq.  There lies the responsibility. If the United States volunteers to spearhead the Iraq-war out of self-interest (be it oil monopoly), I think it is completely justifiable.

    Who should fund such an extremely costly operation? Well that is one of those questions I would have difficulties answering, because this would (as you say) involve the regular tax-payer. An alternative is, to borrow substantial sums of money from private corporations under the agreement that they would have shares in the Iraqi oil. This way, the expenses would end up on the Iraqi lap and they would end up paying for the removal of their own dictator, which is no more than what is fair. I think this has been tried, with the likes of Hunt Oil Co. and other oil corporations, but I don't know how much of the war was privately funded, so I can't comment on the success (or lack of success) of this alternative.

    I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Minimow, as well as who should fund it and why, and what sales pitch you would give to the tax payers of that nation if you support war.


    Well I think I've given you my best answer here. North Korea sits on the most unadulterated masses of mineral resources and metals strongly demanded by high tech-industries. Give the relevant corporations a carrot they very much would like to chew on, the guarantee to access these resources, given that they take part in the funding of this war.

    Again, this is highly theoretical, I don't know how efficient this would be, nor do I know if there will be a war at all (although I hope we're entering times when we're about to see the back of that ghastly dynasty).

    Btw, this funding strategy came to me when reading through the track record of the war criminal Henry Kissinger. He had connections with the bureaucracy at Coca Cola and when communist Salvatore Allende came to power in Chile, this highly threatened Coca Cola's foothold in the country. So very roughly put, Henry Kissinger arranged the assassination of the Chilean general, Rene Schneider and the coup d'état against Allende. So here we had, state and corporations in a marriage of evil. Turn this strategy on its head and we have a something to fund the future emancipation of our fellow human beings, having to endure the misfortune of being born into the wrong country.

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #44 - March 28, 2013, 09:21 PM

    You seem to have a strange trust in the motives of governments and corporations.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #45 - March 28, 2013, 09:34 PM

    Well, I don't know why some of you guys insist on misunderstanding me here. Or maybe I'm phrasing things poorly. Have I not pointed out that the United States had oil interests and other interests not necessarily benefiting any Iraqi? Have I then not pointed out that in the US interest, the Iraqi interest can be fulfilled?

    Getting that out of the way, you (and others) asked me how I would justify the war, how I think the war should be funded and where I think the responsibility lies. So when I say that we have fellow human beings who are unfortunate enough to be born into dictatorships, I'm not talking about any corporate or governmental interest. Should I make it clear that these are my justifications (the humanitarian ones) and that I personally don't have any particular oil interest in Iraq or mineral interest in North Korea? I thought these things were easily read between the lines?

    C'mon HM, or am I missing something here?

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #46 - March 28, 2013, 09:56 PM

    You present your case well, minimow. Hypothetically and in theory, you have a valid argument. My general distrust of human motives makes me less confident that your ideas would work in practice. I'm a debater by nature, so don't take it personally when I play devil's advocate lol.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #47 - March 28, 2013, 10:22 PM

    Quote
    You present your case well, minimow. Hypothetically and in theory, you have a valid argument. My general distrust of human motives makes me less confident that your ideas would work in practice. I'm a debater by nature, so don't take it personally when I play devil's advocate lol.


    Of course, I'm not taking anything personal, HM. But bearing in mind that you're just about to drive me crazy, please care to elaborate on what I've marked out, granted you would like to avoid my wrath and anger.

    But seriously, I'm actually saying that it is possible that an intervention can be funded and administered successfully, even when every single part are taking care of their own interests. We have a government bothered by a North Korean dictatorship, threatening with a nuclear war and taking part in an ever more aggressive confrontation with its US-allied neighbor, South Korea. We also have high tech-industries willing to pay substantial sums of money to get their hands on highly demanded resources in North Korea. Thirdly, we have the North Korean people, subjected to the ultimate Orwellian Nightmare for half a century and who couldn't care less if the United States were liberating them for the right motives or not..

    I'm not saying that my suggestion is unproblematic (it certainly is not), but I can't see where I'm being too generous of the human motives you so distrust? All these motives are in fact complimentary, they are reconcilable. The US wants to destroy Kim Jong Un and showcase their power, sneaky American corporations volunteer in funding this operation granted shares, the North Korean people are now free, but must be ready to sacrifice ownership of some of their resources, as corporations arrive to profit. American GDP rises. North Korea is free. All interests, although not mutual are complementary.

    Edit: This is also why I sometimes had to pause when the pacifists roared on about how much the Iraq-war was about oil. Well, it was about many things, but of course oil was one of them. Isn't that obvious?
    And I would much rather have more or less anyone else but Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Un in possession of these resources.

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #48 - March 28, 2013, 10:36 PM

    I'm on my phone so I don't feel like typing much. Privatization of the motives of war is, in my opinion, a slippery slope. The humanitarian case will always be made as a front, but endorsing capital interests to drive and finance a war sounds like a generally bad idea. I am certain that there will be a disproportionate amount of resource-rich nations that suddenly require "liberation." The case will be made just as diligently-and misleadingly-as the case for the Iraq war was made, and in the end, there will be someone around to sum up the supposed benefits, which may or may not be real..
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #49 - March 28, 2013, 10:46 PM

    Quote
    I'm on my phone so I don't feel like typing much. Privatization of the motives of war is, in my opinion, a slippery slope. The humanitarian case will always be made as a front, but endorsing capital interests to drive and finance a war sounds like a generally bad idea. I am certain that there will be a disproportionate amount of resource-rich nations that suddenly require "liberation." The case will be made just as diligently-and misleadingly-as the case for the Iraq war was made, and in the end, there will be someone around to sum up the supposed benefits, which may or may not be real..


    Well, I thought of ending things with a "agree to disagree"-notion earlier, but I gave it a couple of tries. But when you think of the case for the Iraq war as a misleading campaign by a rich nation that suddenly required "liberation", I realize we are at the opposite sides of the spectrum and radically so.

    But yeah, I won't bother you more, so we'll have succumb to a cliche and agree to disagree for now. If you ever want to change your mind, you know where to find me!

    Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it.
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #50 - March 28, 2013, 10:50 PM

    Cheers
  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #51 - March 28, 2013, 11:08 PM


    And I would much rather have more or less anyone else but Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Un in possession of these resources.


    *sneaks back into this thread*

    Henry Kissinger "Oil is too precious a commodity to leave in the hands of Arabs"

    I personally hate this^, because it is as though the USA will evenly distribute or make good use of these resources. No, they will just expand their empire/military, whereas if a country like USA had a more socialist system, there could be a tonne of advancements seeing as they produce some of the worlds most brilliant people (who also get wasted in this capitalist greedy empire of theirs). It's like two bad choices, but I wont be sucked into this idea that America is the better option. They are, after all, the best example of a first world country with a gap so wide, you might as well compare it to "__a certain poorer country where slums and palaces literally stand side by side____".

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq
     Reply #52 - May 11, 2016, 11:05 AM

    on that America's Toxic Legacy in Iraq  ., today's news says   Car bomb in Baghdad's Sadr City kills 64



    Quote
    BAGHDAD:A car bombing claimed by the militant Islamic State (IS) group killed at least 64 people Wednesday at a market in a Shia area of Baghdad, in the single deadliest attack this year in the capital.  The blast comes as the government is locked in a political crisis that some have warned could undermine the fight against IS.

    The bombing, which hit the Sadr City area at around 10:00 am, also wounded at least 65 people, the officials said. The blast set nearby shops on fire and left debris including the charred, twisted remains of a vehicle in the street.

    Dozens of angry people gathered at the scene of the bombing, blaming the government for the carnage. “The state is in a conflict over (government positions) and the people are the victims,” said a man named Abu Ali.

    “The state is responsible for the bombings that hit civilians,” said a civilian.

    Cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, who spearheaded a protest movement demanding a cabinet reshuffle and other reforms, has a huge following in the working class neighbourhood of Sadr City, which was named after his father.

    IS issued an online statement claiming responsibility for the attack.

    It said a suicide bomber it identified as “Abu Sulaiman al-Ansari" detonated the explosives-rigged vehicle.


    off course it was suicide bomber., but where do thees heroes of Islam that preach Jihadi Islam get such ideas of killing Shia folks  by using suicide bomber??

    Oh well...let me watch again that Tony Benn's interview with Saddam Hussein  some 13 years ago..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxHtQ1__qUc

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn2Rf2v-T5Y

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izsBbZVJdM4

    well Saddam Hussein   gone and  Tony Benn gone we go ..everything goes..what is important is what stuff we leave and WHAT SHIT WE LEAVE BEHIND...

    Quote
    Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn (3 April 1925 – 14 March 2014), originally known as Anthony Wedgwood Benn or Wedgie Benn, but later as Tony Benn, was a British politician who was a Member of Parliament (MP) for 47 years between the 1950 and 2001    ......  Benn died at home, surrounded by his family, on 14 March 2014, at age 88.


    HE WAS A GREAT GUY..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »