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Theme Changer

 Topic: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?

 (Read 11030 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #30 - January 15, 2009, 08:24 PM

    This history of this war in a nuthsell:


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #31 - January 15, 2009, 08:33 PM

    That's awesome.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #32 - January 15, 2009, 08:48 PM

    That just about sums it up.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #33 - January 15, 2009, 09:20 PM

    I have seen some here claim that Hams offered peace for Israel.
    Well that is incorrect.


    The Islamic resistance movement offered Israel a truce of 10 years if Israel will give back all the west bank and Gaza.
    After the ten years they don't say what will happen.
    If Israel accept this then after ten years the Islamic resistance movement may use the west bank as platform to launch rockets on Tel Aviv.
    Also when you really examine the proposal and the fact that this is Islamic organization then you realize that the number 10 have meaning.

    When Muhammad had conflict with the Meccans he decided to sing truce with them for ten years.After 8 years he had enough power so he violated the truce,attacked Mecca and conquer it.

    Since Muslims need to follow Muhammad this event became law.
    Muslims are not allowed to sign truce longer than 10 years and according to Islam they are free to violate them when ever they have enough power.

  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #34 - January 15, 2009, 10:07 PM

    I have seen some here claim that Hams offered peace for Israel.
    Well that is incorrect.


    The Islamic resistance movement offered Israel a truce of 10 years if Israel will give back all the west bank and Gaza.
    After the ten years they don't say what will happen.
    If Israel accept this then after ten years the Islamic resistance movement may use the west bank as platform to launch rockets on Tel Aviv.
    Also when you really examine the proposal and the fact that this is Islamic organization then you realize that the number 10 have meaning.

    When Muhammad had conflict with the Meccans he decided to sing truce with them for ten years.After 8 years he had enough power so he violated the truce,attacked Mecca and conquer it.

    Since Muslims need to follow Muhammad this event became law.
    Muslims are not allowed to sign truce longer than 10 years and according to Islam they are free to violate them when ever they have enough power.





    Yeah, whatever Explode.

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #35 - January 15, 2009, 10:11 PM

    I have seen some here claim that Hams offered peace for Israel.
    Well that is incorrect.


    The Islamic resistance movement offered Israel a truce of 10 years if Israel will give back all the west bank and Gaza.
    After the ten years they don't say what will happen.
    If Israel accept this then after ten years the Islamic resistance movement may use the west bank as platform to launch rockets on Tel Aviv.
    Also when you really examine the proposal and the fact that this is Islamic organization then you realize that the number 10 have meaning.

    When Muhammad had conflict with the Meccans he decided to sing truce with them for ten years.After 8 years he had enough power so he violated the truce,attacked Mecca and conquer it.

    Since Muslims need to follow Muhammad this event became law.
    Muslims are not allowed to sign truce longer than 10 years and according to Islam they are free to violate them when ever they have enough power.



    Just like 'normal' politicians , then.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #36 - January 16, 2009, 02:26 AM

    Hass you have to understand Israel is a democracy and the majority of the population are Westernised and secular.

    Yes in the distant past Israeli policy has been about expansion and there have been religious zealots (or supporters of religious zealots) in government but the nature of a democracy is that governments come and go and policies change.

    The Israeli people don't make a habit of voting for religious zealots.

    Yes they vote for people who will defend them against attack but they are not voting for racist, expansionist fundamentalists.

    When I listen to people who oppose Israel even moderately they talk about it as if it was a monolithic military regime run by expansionist and genocidal dictators.

    It is not, it is a liberal democracy whos policies are like shifting sand.

    Most Israelis want peace so the sand is very unlikely to shift in an expansionist messianic direction.

    Some Israelis only see peace possible with a wall and an active military who wont give up an inch of territory for fear of it being seen as in retreat, others want to see 67 borders and an end to defensive retaliation but no politician would get voted in if he said that his policies were to expand Israel.

    Israeli politicians get voted in for saying they will defend Israel not expand it.

    Israel is a liberal democracy, they have gay pride for crying out loud. Do you really think Israel is run by a ,racist, ultra religious, military regime....Sheesh mysmilie_977

    Also if you study any war in history I think you will find that recently Israel has been uniquely interested in targeting their enemy and avoiding civilians.

    Yes there is always going to be civilian casualties, deaths, pain misery and despair in a war but Israel is attacking an enemy which uses guerrilla tactics and is based in a very densely populated area. When you take that into account it's quite obvious that Israel is trying to target Hamas not civilians. If they didn't care about civilians the death toll would be in the thousands if not hundreds of thousands.

    People called Jennin "The Jennin Massacre" the Palestinian authority and Western activists claimed that 500 civilians were slaughtered. The Western media lapped it up and Israel was condemned. It turned out that 56 people were killed and 46 of them were armed. Be careful when talking about the conflict in Gaza as an Israeli atrocity.

    You said your father fought against Israel. It's difficult to see the reality of a conflict when you have such a close relationship to one side in that conflict.

    I think you are looking at the situation with the eyes of someone who has been raised to see Israel as the enemy. Any Israeli attack is going to seem like an atrocity when you have been bought up with stories of war and oppression by the losing side in a war.

    I have to say your view of this is totally partisan and there is no way you can see the reality of Israeli policies when you have always seen Israel as a brutal racist oppressor.

    I'm not Jewish or Muslim and I don't know anyone who has ever fought for or against Israel.

    I'm just looking at Israeli policy objectively and it is without a doubt defensive and I'm looking at military history and Israel does not target civilians.

    It does have a load of illegal settlements, an oppressive network of roadblocks, check points and an aggressive military occupation of the West Bank. All of this should be removed but make no mistake that the road blocks and check points are there to stop the murder of Israelis not to humiliate the Palestinians. 

    <edited>
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #37 - January 16, 2009, 11:25 AM

    Hass you have to understand Israel is a democracy and the majority of the population are Westernised and secular.

    <edited>




    Ha ha ha@ democracy.

    <edited>

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #38 - January 16, 2009, 01:17 PM

    Please refrain from the personal insults towards each other jack and bruce.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #39 - January 19, 2009, 05:47 PM

    I support the two state solution with the 67 borders


    I do too - but I don't believe Israel will accept that. They have been working hard for years to ensure the reality on the ground will give them much more than that IF they were ever in a position where they would have to accept a two state solution.

    As long as Hamas and other extremists keep doing what extremists do, they can continue to defer and postpone serious efforts and the USA won't push them.


    what other option does israel have other then a 2 state solution hassan? assuming they are not going to genocide 4-6 million people.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #40 - January 19, 2009, 06:03 PM

    I support the two state solution with the 67 borders


    I do too - but I don't believe Israel will accept that. They have been working hard for years to ensure the reality on the ground will give them much more than that IF they were ever in a position where they would have to accept a two state solution.

    As long as Hamas and other extremists keep doing what extremists do, they can continue to defer and postpone serious efforts and the USA won't push them.


    what other option does israel have other then a 2 state solution hassan? assuming they are not going to genocide 4-6 million people.



    Continue war of attrition, taking more land, houses, evictions, keep the situation boiling and unbearable... continue squeezing and then periodically bomb and kill a few hundred in response to Palestinian attacks.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7729487.stm

  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #41 - January 19, 2009, 06:58 PM

    Hass, your the man that moderated my view of Islam.

    I respect you mightily but do you really think that Israel has expansion on it's mind not defense and ultimately cessation of hostility?

    Yes in the past they played the Biblical messianic piper but they haven't been playing that dead end for at least a ten year stretch.

    On the whole they are a secular nation.

    I think the pull out of Gaza was the proof positive that Israel is serious about peace.

    The transformation of Gaza from illegal Israeli settlement in to a genocidal Islamist HQ explains Israels recent action.

    Israels recent action is not about reclaiming Gaza and killing civilians and expanding Israel. It's purely defense.


    I would dearly, dearly love to believe Israel is as well-intentioned and secular as you say - I really would.

    I would want nothing more than to see a democratic, plural and free society where human beings can live together without any of the false and divisive racial and religious bullshit that separates one human being from another and makes Arab despise Jew and Jew despise Arab.

    If Israel convince me that this is truly what they want they will have me as their most ardent supporter.

    Suffice to say I am not yet convinced... by a long stretch.



    I am not sure I understand your point Hassan. You expect the jew to be democractic and plural, with neighbours that succeeded in conducting a successful ethnic cleansing of Arab jews. Well the jews are democratic. They truly are. Plural? my family who are 100% arabs are living in israel, on the lands of their ancestors, with degrees from israeli universities and 13 representatives in the israeli parliament. Are they treated like first class citizen? no, not really, not yet. They lost a lot of political ground during the intifadah. And I have to remind you how the Second intifadah was started, with the fake French film about the kid getting killed. But overall, I would say the jews are quite plural. Plural and Democratic.

    However, since it is their life on the line, do not expect them to be stupid westerners as well,  a plural societies can only accept other plural societies.

    As it stands, it is an absolute and utter impossibility for israel to go for a 1 state solution. It is impossible for them to accept a 1 state solution exactly because they are democratic. what will happen to the jews once they accept 4-6 million muslim arab? the muslim arabs will become a majority. And what will happen to the jews once the muslim arabs become a majority?

    I am not going to ask you about the palestinians, but about all the other arab political parties, historically, and lebanon excluded, what does an arab party do when it achieves a democratic majority?

    Hassan, why do you want the jews to pay for the sins of the arab. Why do you want the israelis to bear the brunt, of the arab lack of successful state models to the palestinians. The only thing the arabs are asking from the palestinian, is to retrieve every last inch for them. Arabs are sitting, in castles or in ditches or in corner mosques, and the only solution they offer the palestinians, is sharia or nothing. when in their own countries, they would never dare implement sharia. Why should the jews pay for this?





    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #42 - January 19, 2009, 07:12 PM

    This isn't the lion Baal, it's the lion's cub. Let's see what happens when we get the new keeper in the lionhouse.
    Israel knew it had to act before next week. It's all been worked out to a carefully timed schedule.

    I respectfully disagree. With all the peace as well as war inventions and science that this little stretch of land produced. With the training and equipment that this little stretch of land possess. If you are an alien who came from space and wanted to speak with the leader of the middle east, you will choose to talk with the ruler of israel. The only sentient being who will choose to not address israel as the leader of the middle east, is someone with a very strong bias against israel.


    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #43 - January 19, 2009, 10:28 PM


    I am not going to ask you about the palestinians, but about all the other arab political parties, historically, and lebanon excluded, what does an arab party do when it achieves a democratic majority?






    You can ask whatever you like, Dr Crippen, but in case you didn't notice, Hass thinks you're a total knob head and wishes you'd f*** off, lest alone encourage dialogue. I'm sure he won't mind me speaking up for him on this, and I have to say, I tend to agree with him However, I'll give you the thick-skin of the year award though, no problem with that. Afro

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #44 - January 20, 2009, 04:56 AM

    I believe "Old Testament"

    The Book Of Proverbs:

    Chapter 17

    Israel will be.


    There will be no white flag above our door
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #45 - January 20, 2009, 10:21 AM

    I believe "Old Testament"

    The Book Of Proverbs:

    Chapter 17

    Israel will be.




    Do you indeed. Israel will be.......fucked? Pushed into the sea? What will it be? A dribbling, inter-bred, be-hatted, sinister colony of Zionist pyschopaths masquerading as reasonable people? Which?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #46 - January 20, 2009, 10:28 AM

    I can only read Proverbs 17 as condemning Israel with it's proverbs. Tongue

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #47 - January 20, 2009, 02:28 PM


    I am not going to ask you about the palestinians, but about all the other arab political parties, historically, and lebanon excluded, what does an arab party do when it achieves a democratic majority?






    You can ask whatever you like, Dr Crippen, but in case you didn't notice, Hass thinks you're a total knob head and wishes you'd f*** off, lest alone encourage dialogue. I'm sure he won't mind me speaking up for him on this, and I have to say, I tend to agree with him However, I'll give you the thick-skin of the year award though, no problem with that. Afro

    A man with  no opinions of his own is like a man with no face jack. Maybe one day you will start having an opinion of your own and then you will stop going after those who do.

    I sometimes wonder about what coward culture you chose to adopt that makes you feel so punished whenever you have to state your opinion. It is like the only opinion you are ever permitted to have is about how loud to bark at people who have opinions.

    Happy barking Jack is this is how you choose to spend your life.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #48 - January 20, 2009, 03:51 PM

    A man with  no opinions of his own is like a man blah blah blah'




    Shut up freak!

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #49 - January 20, 2009, 04:08 PM

    Both of you shut up and act your age

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #50 - January 20, 2009, 08:13 PM

    You tell 'em. yes

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: ISRAEL does it have a right to exist?
     Reply #51 - January 20, 2009, 11:23 PM

    Hass you have to understand Israel is a democracy and the majority of the population are Westernised and secular.

    Yes in the distant past Israeli policy has been about expansion and there have been religious zealots (or supporters of religious zealots) in government but the nature of a democracy is that governments come and go and policies change.

    The Israeli people don't make a habit of voting for religious zealots.
    <edited>


    The modern Likud party platform rejects any idea of Palestinian state-hood... and they were in power not that long ago.  Israel's system of gov't means that they go through leaders like laundry if they don't generate broad agreement.  This means that the religious psychos can and do keep movement of the peace plan frozen. 


    In any case - Yes for a two state solution along 67 borders, with no general right of return.  (some Palestinians should be allowed back in based on family ties etc.)

    There's general agreement on that... East Jerusalem makes it tough.  I think Israel should keep the Jewish majority areas there, and then dismantle all settlements beyond that. 

    That'd probably strike a balance on the painful compromise.
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