Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs

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- mighty_cats
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Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
OP - August 10, 2011, 06:53 PM

Theres plenty of similarities between the Quran, the Bible and Sumerian writings.
As the O.T was created through oral traditions over thousands of years from the region and the Quran copied most of it, its not surprising that we would find multiple similarities between them.
Here are some similar points from Sumerian texts; Strange how 'the truth' copies incoherent rambling poetry from pagan religions several thousand years earlier..

The garden of eden and the creation myth, separation of the Heavens and the Earth
' In the first days when everything needed was brought into being,
In the first days when everything needed was properly nourished,
When bread was baked in the shrines of the land,
And bread was tasted in the homes of the land,
When heaven had moved away from the earth,
And earth had separated from heaven,
And the name of man was fixed;
When the Sky God, An, had carried off the heavens,
And the Air God, Enlil, had carried off the earth . . . (Wolkstein 4)'

Notice that the Quran never actually says 'created' in the verse 21:30
'The heaven and the earth were joint together. And We clove them…(Surah Anbiya,21:30)'
It says nothing about 'creation', simply that they already existed and were then separated.

The creation of man from clay and in gods image
'Mix the heart of the clay that is over the abyss,
The good and princely fashioners will thicken the clay,
You, [Nammu] do you bring the limbs into existence;
Ninmah [earth-mother or birth goddess] will work above you,
The goddesses [of birth] . . . will stand by you at your fashioning;
O my mother, decree its [the newborn's] fate,
Ninmah will bind upon it the image (?) of the gods,
It is man . . . . (Kramer, History Begins 109)'

More on the garden of eden and the lack of death, cruelty
In Dilmun the raven uttered no cries,
The kite uttered not the cry of the kite,
The lion killed not,
The wolf snatched not the lamb,
Unknown was the kid-killing dog . . . (Kramer, Sumerian Mythology 55)

Creation of Eve from the Rib.
'Ninhursag: "My brother what hurts thee?"
Enki: "My side hurts me."
Ninhursag: "To the goddess Dazimua I give birth for thee."

Ninhursag: "My brother what hurts thee?"
Enki: "My rib hurts me."
Ninhursag: "To the goddess Ninti I give birth for thee."
(Kramer, Sumerian Mythology 58)

Footnotes for the 'Lady of the Rib':
Quote
Now the Sumerian word for "rib" is ti (pronounced "tee"). The goddess created for the healing of Enki's rib, therefore was called in Sumerian Nin-ti, "the lady of the rib." But the very same Sumerian word ti also means "to make live." The name Nin-ti may thus mean "the lady who makes live," as well as "the lady of the rib." In Sumerian literature, therefore, "the lady of the rib" came to be identified with "the lady who makes live" through what might be termed a play on words. (Kramer, Mythologies 103)

The cunning serpent in the Tree:
...a serpent who could not be charmed
made its nest in the roots of the tree,
The Anzu bird set his young in the branches of the tree,
And the dark maid Lilith built her home in the trunk. (Wolkstein and Kramer 1983: p.8 )

Who is lillith?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith

Quote
In Jewish folklore, from the 8th–10th Century Alphabet of Ben Sira onwards Lilith becomes Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time and from the same earth as Adam. This contrasts with Eve, who was created from one of Adam's ribs.

Quote
There is an ongoing scholarly debate as to whether the concept of Lilith occurs in the Bible. The only possible occurrence is in the Book of Isaiah 34:13-15, describing the desolation of Edom, where the Hebrew word lilit (or lilith) appears in a list of eight unclean animals, some of which may have demonic associations. Since the word lilit (or lilith) is a hapax legomenon in the Hebrew Bible and the other seven terms in the list are better documented, the reading of scholars and translators is often guided by a decision about the complete list of eight creatures as a whole.
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #1 - August 11, 2011, 12:38 PM

Careful mighty_cats, if you want to maintain your atheism/agnosticism you shouldn't delve deeper into this.

The Noble Qur'an - Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #2 - August 11, 2011, 01:29 PM

Quote from: iSoK on August 11, 2011, 12:38 PM
Careful mighty_cats, if you want to maintain your atheism/agnosticism you shouldn't delve deeper into this.

I have an unlimited depth for learning unlike some, because I hold the most accurate position because it is based on truth, and the truth fears nothing.
Perhaps if anyone should worry about learning its you...that is, if you care to begin at some point in the future as I know those evil freemasons have a habit of corrupting everything under the title of 'Education'..

Tell me, how do you explain such striking similarities between the words of 'Allah' and older ancient poetry written specifically by man?
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #3 - August 11, 2011, 03:08 PM

Quote from: mighty_cats on August 11, 2011, 01:29 PM
I have an unlimited depth for learning unlike some, because I hold the most accurate position because it is based on truth, and the truth fears nothing.
Perhaps if anyone should worry about learning its you...that is, if you care to begin at some point in the future as I know those evil freemasons have a habit of corrupting everything under the title of 'Education'..

Tell me, how do you explain such striking similarities between the words of 'Allah' and older ancient poetry written specifically by man?

Allah (swt) know best, surely.

Great find, mighty kitty!

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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #4 - August 11, 2011, 03:14 PM

I was merely pointing towards the transcende within different religions in human history.
There’s no need for personal attacks, rather explain me the following according to your definition of the ‘truth’.
I shall briefly cite two creation myths of two different nations that were isolated by time and location as you insist on the fact that plagiarism played a role.

Maori (inhabitants of New Zealand):

Io is known as the Supreme Being and ex nihilo (out of nothing) creator of the entire universe. He creates Ranginui (Rangi) and Papatuanuku (Papa), Sky Father and the Earth Mother, respectively. The sky and earth produce numerous offspring while they are physically, “cleaved together in a procreative embrace.”
The children are forced to live in the darkness since their parents block all the rays from the sun.
They soon become restless and worn out from the living conditions and gather to question whether
to separate their parents or to kill them for more room and light.
The fiercest of the offspring, Tumatauenga (Tuma) voices his opinion for death, while Tanemahuta (Tane) wishes to just separate the mother and father so that the earth will “remain close as our nursing mother.” Most of the sons, including Tuma, finally agree with the plan for separation with a major dissenting vote from only one sibling, Tawhirimatea. As the guardian of winds and storms, he fears that his kingdom will be overthrown if the parents are torn apart. In the minority, Tawhirimatea remains silent and holds his breath.

The children begin to divide Rangi and Papa, and they soon realize their task is very difficult to accomplish. After many siblings attempt to separate the parents, Tane finally succeeds as he places his shoulders against the earth and his feet against the sky. He pushes slowly with both his upper and lower body with great strain. “Soon, and yet not soon, for the time was vast, the Sky and Earth began to yield.” The Earth Mother and Sky Father bleed and this gives rise to ochre (red clay), the sacred color of the Maoris. As the parents cry out for Tuma to stop, he only presses on harder. Sky Father and Earth Mother’s blood spills on his head, known as the kokowai, the sacred red earth that is created when the first blood spills at the dawn of time. Now that the separation is complete, there is a clearly defined sky and earth.

One of the offspring, Urutengangana, states that there is one element still missing, and he urges his siblings to find the female element, ira tangata, to enable the creation of woman. The search spans both land and sea, and Tane finally consults his mother, Papa, for her advice and knowledge. The earth takes pity on Tane and tells him to search an area named Kura-waka. Tane returns to his siblings with the new insight and they travel to the location. The children find the element in the Earth and dig it out to contribute in the creation of woman and her form. The elder siblings shape the body and the younger siblings add the flesh, fat, muscles, and blood. Tane then breathes life into it, and creates Hine-ahu-one, the earth formed maiden.

Summary:
- One Supreme Being that has created a Sky Father (Heaven) and an Earth Mother (Earth).
- Separation of Heaven and Earth so that there is light.
- Female creation of clay.

Note that there is much wise admonition in this story about human affairs.

Maya creation myth (according to the Popol Vuh)

Here is the story of the beginning,
when there was not one bird,
not one fish,
not one mountain.
Here is the sky, all alone.
Here is the sea, all alone.
There is nothing more
–no sound, no movement.
Only the sky and the sea.
(Note similitude with Genesis)

Only Heart-of-Sky, alone.
And these are his names:
Maker and Modeler,
Kukulkan,
and Hurricane.

(20:8 ) Allah - there is no god but He. His are the most excellent names.

But there is no one to speak his names.
There is no one to praise his glory.
There is no one to nurture his greatness.
And so Heart-of-Sky thinks,
"Who is there to speak my name?
Who is there to praise me?
How shall I make it dawn?"

(Hadith Qudsi: 'I was a treasure that was not known, so I loved to be known. Hence I created the creatures and I made Myself known to them, and thus they came to know Me.')

Heart-of-Sky only says the word,
"Earth,"
and the earth rises,
like a mist from the sea.
He only thinks of it,
and there it is.
He thinks of mountains,
and great mountains come.
He thinks of trees,
and trees grow on the land.

((36:82) Whenever He wills a thing, He just commands it “Be” and it is.)

And so Heart-of-Sky says,
"Our work is going well."

Genesis: God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.

Now Heart-of-Sky plans the creatures of the forest
-birds, deer, jaguars and snakes.
And each is given his home.
"You the deer, sleep here along the rivers.
You the birds, your nests are in the trees.
Multiply and scatter," he tells them.
(Genesis once again)

Then Heart-of-Sky says to the animals,
"Speak, pray to us."
But the creatures can only squawk.
The creatures only howl.
They do not speak like humans.
They do not praise Heart-of-Sky
And so the animals are humbled.
They will serve those who will worship Heart-of-Sky.
And Heart-of-Sky tries again.
Tries to make a giver of respect.
Tries to make a giver of praise.
Here is the new creation,
made of mud and earth.

(15:26) Surely We brought man into being out of dry ringing clay which was wrought from black mud)

It doesn't look very good.
It keeps crumbing and softening.
It looks lopsided and twisted.
It only speaks nonsense.
It cannot multiply.
So Heart-of-Sky lets it dissolved away.
(Different stages of human development)
Now Heart-of-Sky plans again.
Our Grandfather and Our Grandmother are summoned.
They are the most wise spirits.
"Determine if we should carve people from wood,"
commands Heart-of-Sky.

(Adam and Eve)

They run their hands over the kernels of corn.
They run their hands over the coral seeds.
"What can we make that will speak and pray?
asks Our Grandfather.
What can we make that will nurture and provide?"
asks Our Grandmother.
They count the days,
the lots of four,
seeking an answer for Heart-of-Sky.
Now they give the answer,
"It is good to make your people with wood.
They will speak your name.
They will walk about and multiply."
"So it is," replies Heart-of-Sky.

(7:172) And recall (0 Prophet) when your Lord brought forth descendants from the loins of the sons of Adam, and made them witnesses against their ownselves. asking them: 'Am I not your Lord?' They said: 'Yes, we do testify.' We did so lest you claim on the Day of Resurrection: 'We were unaware of this.'

And as the words are spoken, it is done.
The doll-people are made
with faces carved from wood.
But they have no blood, no sweat.
They have nothing in their minds.
They have no respect for Heart-of-Sky.
They are just walking about,
But they accomplish nothing.
"This is not what I had in mind,"
says Heart-of-Sky.
And so it is decided to destroy
these wooden people.
Hurricane makes a great rain.
It rains all day and rains all night.
There is a terrible flood
and the earth is blackened.
The creatures of the forest
come into the homes of the doll-people.

(Noah’s flood)

"You have chased us from our homes
so now we will take yours,"
they growl.
And their dogs and turkeys cry out,
"You have abused us
so now we shall eat you!"
Even their pots and grinding stones speak,
"We will burn you and pound on you
just as you have done to us!"
The wooden people scatter into the forest.
Their faces are crushed,
and they are turned into monkeys.
And this is why monkeys look like humans.
They are what is left of what came before,
an experiment in human design.

(Human rebellion and the development of other primates)

I did not add other perspective, since these two say more than enough.
That’s what I meant mighty_cats, the existence of a transcendence reality; probably the only reality is no doubt a fact.

The question really here is, whether this reality is God?
The similitude is no doubt there and every religion is of the opinion that man has been created to pray and not to work like in the modern secular world
(a recent development with disastrous consequences).
Whether it’s God we shall soon find out, but given the active engagement in every society during human history there’s a very high possibility.

You mentioned the truth, what is the truth for you?

The Noble Qur'an - Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #5 - August 11, 2011, 03:40 PM

Quote from: iSoK on August 11, 2011, 03:14 PM
The question really here is, whether this reality is God?

Are we supposed to understand any of this?

Quote
(a recent development with disastrous consequences).

What, secularism?

Quote
Whether it’s God we shall soon find out, but given the active engagement in every society during human history there’s a very high possibility.

Appeal to tradition/popularity. How did you come to that conclusion?

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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #6 - August 11, 2011, 03:58 PM

Quote
The similitude is no doubt there and every religion is of the opinion that man has been created to pray and not to work like in the modern secular world

This isn't correct. In some religions yes, but in general? no.

For example
In Sumerian Mythology, two stories exist for mans creation:
1) Humans are created to do constructive work as the gods didn't want to do it:
' The gods were dredging the rivers,
   were piling up their silt
   on projecting bends--
and the gods lugging the clay
   began complaining (Jacobsen, Harps 154)'

And the other that man was constructed to mine gold for the Annunaki.

This is also why many pagan religions are based around natural events, such as crop growing, rainfall, pregnancy etc etc, not because they were created to pray, but to make their obligatory work easier and appear 'blessed' when the gods took notice and helped them.

Many other religions such as in the norse regions don't have any information to support either position and there are plenty of religions where the idea of praise are either limited or non-existent as the gods are not seen as beings desperate for praise, like some gods, but as just beings that happen to exist among themselves.

If we're going by similarities, I'm pretty sure there are more religions that support the Idea of a god being the moon, than worship-over-work.
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #7 - August 11, 2011, 06:32 PM

Quote from: crazyislam on August 11, 2011, 03:40 PM

What, secularism?

This:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmbkfTiLQ58

@Mighty_cats

I don't know much about the sumerian mythology, a lot of their resources are also lost.
It's quite hard to define an objective view of their world.
But they were certainly worshipping god's in some way.

But how do you see the similitude between the Maya's, the Maori's and the Abrahamic religions?
It's striking, don't you think?

The Noble Qur'an - Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #8 - August 11, 2011, 07:45 PM

Thank you for those maori and mayan mythologies above isok. The similarities and common themes between vastly different mythologies always strikes me as fascinating. Maybe Jung was onto something with his collective unconsciousness.

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #9 - August 11, 2011, 08:03 PM

Quote from: iSoK on August 11, 2011, 06:32 PM
But how do you see the similitude between the Maya's, the Maori's and the Abrahamic religions?
It's striking, don't you think?

I don't and here is why:
First of all, many of the claimed similarities are at the most basic and simplistic elements
(Most religions have had a great deal of interest in the moon, the sun and female fertility, personification and building statues, for example)
Ofcourse when it comes to the entirety of the subjects to any detailed extent, we find that the similarities aren't often there at all or only exist in the most basic of extents; case in point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_creation_myths#Basic_type
Alot of people have argued in the past that most religions maintain a common ground of the universes creation, but this isn't actually the case. Although we have a starting point, things beyond that point begin to differ, often greatly, and as I've demonstrated with the example of 'what humans were created for', we can show that not all religions believe that man was created to worship, only some claim it, but the fact that a handful can be taken to maintain a somewhat similar nature of existence (whilst disregarding the handfuls that differ and the extreme contradiction as to what to worship, why and how) its more statistical than miraculous.

We also have to note that religions merge and copy (the central theme of this thread)
Taking Christianity for example, one cant help notice that on any given subject or character, we find traits of other neighboring faiths that interestingly show up.
We find plenty of Greek, Norseand Zoroastrian aspects added to the faith; concepts such as Easter, Christmas and characteristics of the devil being obvious examples along with the copycat religions and its characters who followed soon after, case in point: Apollonius of Tyana and Jesus.

What would infact be miraculous is if any of the gods in question (most of which are claimed to have near unlimited powers) would be able to communicate a consistent message among the planet they claimed to have been responsible for. Instead we find a long list of thousands of religions, gods and personifications that only sometimes happen to overlap in some areas of the hundreds>thousands of key points of the religions in question.

An anecdote relating to happenstance similarities and coincidences:

Quote
On March 12, 1951, Hank Ketcham's Dennis the Menace comic strip first hit American newspapers. It's still running to this day, in more than 1,000 newspapers, because comic strips never, ever die.

Where it Gets Weird:
Just a few hours before Ketcham's Dennis the Menace hit the nation, on the opposite side of the Atlantic, issue No. 452 of the British comic The Beano hit newsstands even though it was dated 17 March, 1951. This particular comic was notable for featuring the first appearance of what went on to become cartoonist David Law's most famous creation: Dennis the Menace.

Where it Gets Even Weirder:
So, their comics strips had the same exact name, and for some bizarre reason were published on the same exact day. That means the guy in the UK just ripped off his American counterpart, right? Or vice versa?

Nope. By all accounts, neither man knew, or had any way of knowing, that there was an equivalent comic being developed an ocean away. No lawsuits were filed. After all, if one of them had caught wind of the other ahead of time, he'd have changed the title--it's to neither creator's advantage to create confusion among readers (for all you know the other comic is the worst thing ever). It just appears to be a massive coincidence, or as Carl Jung would have called it, synchronicity.
Besides, aside from this freak occurrence, the two characters had nothing in common. Hank Ketcham's take on Dennis was based on his own son, and David Law's Dennis was more like a gritty reboot of Calvin.

Hank Ketcham and David Law decided to amicably continue their separate works, and both characters ended up becoming immensely popular with their respective audiences. Cracked.com

As we can see, most of the characteristics are not the same, yet some are.
Do we put this down to both men somehow receiving the same message (whilst ignoring the differences beyond the immediate similarities) or do we put this down to a coincidental overlap of similar ideas between two men on a planet filled with billions of people and trillions of ideas?
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #10 - August 11, 2011, 09:08 PM

Quote from: z10 on August 11, 2011, 07:45 PM
Thank you for those maori and mayan mythologies above isok. The similarities and common themes between vastly different mythologies always strikes me as fascinating. Maybe Jung was onto something with his collective unconsciousness.

I do find different religions and cultures fascinating, just like you the similarities intrigue me a lot.
Most professors of comparative religion do believe in another realm of existence because
of these similarities, the question for them is whether this realm is God.

The Maya's seemed to be aware of human evolution, so this couldn't have come from the collective unconsciousness.
I don't see any other possibility that this activity must have come from an external source, which we call God.

What do you think of this?

@mighty_cats

I could never do what you are doing, shoving it under the carpet and marking it as mere coincidence by giving a wrong comparison.
Religion is progressive to a certain point, it's only natural that the next revelation will contain certain concepts
from a previous revelation. This inheritance will assure the next generation that, that which they follow is familiar.
Why else do you think that the Qur'an mentions almost every Biblical prophet?

You should carefuly read the creation myths you've posted, I hope you have decent knowledge of
Tawhid (given that you are an ex-muslim and must have thought well of your choice) and you'll understand that all of them say the same.
This verse says enough.

(33:72) We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to carry it and were afraid of doing so; but man carried it. Surely he is wrong-doing, ignorant.

The Noble Qur'an - Verily God does not change a people's condition unless they change their inner selves.
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #11 - August 11, 2011, 09:18 PM

iSok,
As Mighty Cats has pointed out, there's not a consistent message in all those religions(now: myths), like the Aztec vs. Greek vs. Christianity/Islam vs. Maori.

Basics are the same, you're right there, but the central tenets are all different. God, according to Islam, only sends religions through prophets to convey the principle of tawheed, yet many of those myths are polytheistic, or don't believe in God(like Buddism).

If you say the standard Islamic reply of "Well, the original religion was monotheism, but the people changed it" you are LYING. There is absolutely ZERO evidence for this non-trivial assertion, yet Muslims are forced to believe it BECAUSE according to Islam every nation (before 610 AD) was sent a prophet which all conveyed the principle of tawheed.

I shouldn't be here. Really. Shaytan SWT deluded ALL of us. Amen.
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #12 - August 11, 2011, 09:54 PM

Quote from: iSoK on August 11, 2011, 09:08 PM
I could never do what you are doing, shoving it under the carpet and marking it as mere coincidence by giving a wrong comparison.

You should carefuly read the creation myths you've posted, I hope you have decent knowledge of
Tawhid (given that you are an ex-muslim and must have thought well of your choice) and you'll understand that all of them say the same.

Really? Ok, lets take one single point and see where it gets us:
The creation of man:

Zulu
The Ancient One, known as Unkulunkulu, is the Zulu creator. He came from the reeds and from them he brought forth the people and the cattle.

Boshongo
..and the great god Bumba. One day Bumba, in pain from a stomachache, vomited up the sun. The sun dried up some of the water, leaving land. Still in pain, Bumba vomited up the moon, the stars, and then some animals: the leopard, the crocodile, the turtle, and, finally, some men, one of whom, Yoko Lima was white like Bumba.

Aboriginal
With their great stone knives, the Ungambikula carved heads, bodies, legs, and arms out of the bundles. They made the faces, and the hands and feet. At last the human beings were finished.
Wandering the world, they found half-made human beings. They were made of animals and plants, but were shapeless bundles, lying higgledy-piggledy, near where water holes and salt lakes could be created. The people were all doubled over into balls, vague and unfinished, without limbs or features.

Chocktaw
At the beginning there was a great mound. It was called Nanih Wiya. It was from this mound that the Creator fashioned the first of the people. These people crawled through a long, dark cave into daylight. They became the first Choctaw.

Hungarian
However now his beak hit the bottom of the sea, into its sand. He took some of it into his beak and like an arrow,
He shot up to the top of the water with it; From the surface of the sea bed, he brought up the
sleeping eyes/seeds, silver white "ügyücske" [small eyes?].
The sleeping eyes awoke, the sleepy eyes opened and grew up and became living beings

Scandinavian
One day, as they walked along the shore of the great sea, Odin and his brothers came across two logs. Odin gave them breath and life; Vili gave them brains and feelings; and Ve gave them hearing and sight. These were the first man, Ask, and the first woman, Embla, and Midgard was their home. From them, all the families of mankind are descended.

(and I havent even gotten into the pea-pod people created by a raven or the two gods holding each other tightly and people being formed from the light between them etc etc)

Ok, the one basic point they all focus on is that something created humans (the being, the number of them, the reasons, how and what from all being vastly different at times)

So tell me, besides this one simplistic point, what are all of them saying which 'is the same'?

You claim they are all telling the same thing-- my point is that sometimes the most simplistic principals will overlap when you have 10,000's of such beliefs floating around (not even accounting for plagiarism or the fact that alot of stories DONT even have this much of a similarity) and that when we actually research each claim we find that the similarities are often irrelevant; Much like noticing that out of 50 religious stories --19 of them contain details of the color 'blue' among the many pages of them.

Simple fact: You cant have differing gods, differing numbers of gods, differing actions, differing reasons, differing methods, differing materials, differing time periods, differing numbers of original people...but claim they're all the same because they all fall under the vague explanation of 'something created something else'.
Its nonsense.
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #13 - August 11, 2011, 10:03 PM

I do like the similarities that occur between the different myths of the world. One such instance is that of the gods killing another, primeval god, and making the world and the heavens from its remains. There are instances of this in at least Near Eastern, Mesoamerican and European mythology.

(From the Wiki)

Norse mythology:

When the gods felt strong enough they killed Ymir. His blood flooded the world and drowned all of the jötunn, except two. But jötnar grew again in numbers and soon there were as many as before Ymir's death. Then the gods created seven more worlds using Ymir's flesh for dirt, his blood for the Oceans, rivers and lakes, his bones for stone, his brain as the clouds, his skull for the heaven. Sparks from Muspelheim flew up and became stars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology

Aztec mythology:

In one of the Aztec accounts of creation, Quetzalcoatl and Tezcatlipoca joined forces to create the world. Before their act there was only the sea and the crocodilian earthmonster called Cipactli. To attract her, Tezcatlipoca used his foot as bait, and Cipactli ate it. The two gods then captured her, and distorted her to make the land from her body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tezcatlipoca

In the Enûma Elish, the Babylonian epic of creation, she [Tiamat] gives birth to the first generation of deities; she later makes war upon them and is killed by the storm-god Marduk. The heavens and the earth are formed from her divided body.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #14 - August 11, 2011, 10:11 PM

By the way, MightyCats, before you dismiss the creation story of the OT as being unmitigated nonsense, you might actually want to study it in more detail. It's actually quite a brilliant piece of literature, remarkable in many ways.
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #15 - August 11, 2011, 10:13 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on August 11, 2011, 10:03 PM
I do like the similarities that occur between the different myths of the world. One such instance is that of the gods killing another, primeval god, and making the world and the heavens from its remains. There are instances of this in at least Near Eastern, Mesoamerican and European mythology.

You might like this one aswell:

Dragon myths:

China: Long
India : Naga
Indonesia : Nogo
Japan : Ryu
Khymer : Neak
Korean : Yong
Philippines : Bakunawa
Vietnam : Rong
Catalan : Drac
France : Dragon
Sardinia : Scultone
Scandanavia :Lindworm
England: Wyvern
Wales: Y Ddraig Goch
Gaelic : Bheithir
Hungaria : Sarkany
Slavic : Zmey
Romania : Zburator
Chuvash : Vere Celen
Asturian :Cuélebre
Albanian : Dragua
Portuguese :Coca
Greek : Drakon
Turkish : Ejderha
Lithuanian : Slibinas

I think theres more, but cant find the full list.
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #16 - August 11, 2011, 10:16 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on August 11, 2011, 10:11 PM
By the way, MightyCats, before you dismiss the creation story of the OT as being unmitigated nonsense, you might actually want to study it in more detail. It's actually quite a brilliant piece of literature, remarkable in many ways.

I said no such thing and I studied to be a theologian under a catholic family for several years; Im far more educated in the Old Testament than most people here. I bet I've read and studied Genesis more times in Catholic school (alone! Forget every other method of study I was performing at the same period) than anyone here has even said its title! So don't give me that crap.

My point is that the O.T is nothing more than literature based oral traditions, any objective historian will acknowledge this reality. It isn't 'divine', that is my point.

Quote
Gen 1:6-7
And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so.

How could we possibly live without such brilliance; I eagerly await the next page with glee!...
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Re: Proof the Abrahamic faiths are rip-offs
Reply #17 - August 12, 2011, 01:33 AM

The Tanakh wasn't written in English.

And I was thinking a few verses before that, which are particularly notable, both for their literary brilliance and the use of Gematria in their construction.

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

Bereshit bara Elohim et Hashemayyim ve'et Ha'erets

In the Beginning God created (et) the Skies and the Land

The first thing that's notable is the use of the number 7 in the verse, which appears all throughout the Torah, e.g., seven days of creation, Abraham's seven sacrificial ewes, seven days of mourning Jacob, the seven good years and seven famines, etc., etc. And of course, the number 7 symbolizes perfection and completion, that being the reason that it's used in the creation narrative.

Anyhow, the verse has 7 words, made up of 28 letters (7 x 4), and interestingly enough, the first 7 digits, added up make 28; i.e., 1+2+3+4+5+6+7=28. All very well and good, but if one looks at the verse with the Gematria, considering the numerical values of the letters and words, then there are some interesting patterns that appear.

The numerical values:

So, take the word 'created,' 'bara'; it's made of up the three letters bet, resh, and alef, which have the numerical values of 2, 200 and 1, respectively, and thus the numerical value of the word itself is 203, or 29 x 7. This is interesting enough, but in verse 2 it says:

וְרוּחַ אֱלֹהִים, מְרַחֶפֶת עַל-פְּנֵי הַמָּיִם

Va'ruach Elohim merachefet 'al peney hamayyim

And the spirit/wind of God fluttered on the face of the waters

The second verb used to describe the process of creation after 'bara' is 'merachefet,' 'fluttered.' So first, the numerical values of the letters are mem (40), resh (200), chet (8 ), peh (80) and tav (400), and so the value of the word is 728, or 104 x 7. Also notable about the two verbs is the fact that 'bara' is masculine singular, while 'merachefet' is feminine singular, and the word for God, Elohim, is a feminine noun with a masculine plural suffix, and so the process of creation is an expression of the one God, but with a nevertheless diverse and all-encompassing essence, incorporating both the male and female aspects of being.

So back to the number 7, and its representing perfection and completion. It stands to reason that the creation of the one, all-encompassing Deity ultimately is in complete harmony with the Deity and with itself, flowing from the same complete and unified essence. So what happens when the numerical values of Elohim (God), Hashemayyim (the skies/heavens) and Ha'erets (the land/earth) are added up? Well, first is Elohim; alef (1), lamed (30), he (5), yod (10) and mem (40), which equals 86. Hashemayyim: he (5), shin (300), mem (40), yod (10) and mem, 40 again, and this equals 395. And lastly, Ha'erets: he (5), alef (1), resh (200), tsadi (90) = 296. So, added together, 86+395+296 = 777, or 111 x 7. And so, this alludes to the unity and harmony of all things, all things are perfect and all things are one, and just as this harmony is not always apparent, so too is the allusion hidden in the values of the letters.

As an aside, the numerical value of the letter alef, which for various reasons represents God, is also 111 when its 3 root letters are spelled out, as alef = 1, lamed = 30 and peh = 80, and thus 111. One one hundred, one ten and one one, and thus it symbolizes God's oneness, and uniqueness. But the alef is also, as with the name of God, YHWH, ineffable, having no sound of its own, and only having a sound when used with a vowel diacritic. And the alef is the first of all letters, as God is the first of all beings, and further, the symbol for alef (א) is made up of a vav, with a yod below it and another one above it. The numerical value of these letters collectively is vav = 6, yod = 10, and another yod = 10, and thus the value of the alef's symbol is 26, the same numerical value as the Tetragrammaton, the name for God in the Torah, which is YHWH or יהוה. Also, the word for 'nature' in Hebrew (הטבע) has the same numerical value as Elohim, which is 86, and so from this it almost seems that the Hebrew language itself has written into it the notion that God is nature, and that nature is manifested so completely by God that its essentially an extension of God's being.

Back to the verse, another pattern one may find pertaining to the number 7 is that the first, two middle and last letters also form a multiple of seven. E.g., bet (2), mem (40), alef (1) and tsadi (90) = 133, which is 7 x 19. And so, the beginning, middle and end of creation are all in harmony. Or, if one takes the first and last letters of every word, and so, bet+tav = 402, bet+alef = 3, alef+mem = 41, alef+tav = 401, he+mem = 45, vav+tav = 406 and he+tsadi = 95, and so the total of these numbers is 1393, which is 199 x 7.

The middle word of the verse, et (את), is also very interesting. The word has numerous meanings, but this particular usage has no specific meaning as it functions in the first verse as the verb's direct object marker; it is a grammatical particle, not a noun, verb, adjective, etc. It's made up of the first and last letters of the 22-letter Hebrew alphabet, the alef and the tav, respectively, and its said to represent God, who is, according to the three Abrahamic scriptures, the First and the Last. This was apparently picked up on by the latin translators of the Bible who put 'God' in the middle of the verse: In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram. Also, as it appears right in the center, it represents that from which all else emanates and originates, and further, the word has no specific meaning, just as God is not to be constrained by being conceptualised or encompassed by a single word or symbol. And in addition, while the numerical value may be said to be 401, as alef = 1 and tav = 400, alef can also equal 1000, just as the word 'elef' in Hebrew (as with 'alf' in Arabic) means 'one thousand.' In such a case, alef = 1000 and tav = 400, and thus 1400 or 200 x 7.

Finally, I think the Qur'anic phrase 'Allah created the Heavens and the Earth in Truth,' (Q. 45:22) to be quite interesting in the light of this next thing. In the words 'bara Elohim et,' 'God created (et)', the last letters of these 3 words, alef, mem and tav, spell the word 'emet' (אמת), 'truth.' Interestingly, the numerical value of this word, alef =1, mem = 40 and tav = 400, equals 441, or 63 x 7. It's also a multiple of 9, and is 9 x 49, which is 7 squared. As an aside, the name of God found in Exodus 3:14, (אהיה אשר אהיה), 'Ahyah,' or 'I am', has the numerical value of 21 (3 x 7), as alef = 1, he = 5, yod = 10 and he again = 5, and when multiplied by itself, 21 x 21, the sum is 441; the numerical value of 'emet,' or 'truth.' But like I stated, the value of 'emet' is both a multiple of 7 and 9 and so it's interesting that the first letter of the word, alef, is the ninth letter of the verse, and the second letter, mem, is the 14th letter of the verse (2 x 7), and lastly, the tav is the 16th letter of the verse (9+7=16).

In addition to this, it's interesting to note that the verse mentions all of these opposites and dichotomies that permeate 'creation' or the universe: The heavens and the earth, the male and the female, the even and the odd (7 & 28) and the first and the last. In so doing, I think the passage is alluding to the panoply of contrasts that comprise the universe, with all created things embodying these opposites within their being, each being a part of the limitless spectrum.

In conclusion, sometimes there's more to things than first meets the eye. Or did you know all this already and decide it was nonsense?
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