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 Topic: Do you believe in Nothing?

 (Read 9792 times)
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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #30 - January 16, 2009, 08:48 PM

    Oh right.  Well, natural selection isn't really based on self-preservation its based on gene replication, ie, success = reproduction.  Anything else - self-preservation, self-sacrifice, competition, altruism, co-operation etc, are subservient to that imperative.   Whatever technique gets your genes passed on to the next generation is what we're "designed" for.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #31 - January 16, 2009, 08:53 PM



    I like your point about us being Gods, or even the God of Gods, given that we created him.

    I have only ever gone as far to say  "I the Daddy".


    It's a SciFi book and all, but I really like this quote.


    Quote
    Thou art God, and I am God and all that groks is God," God being that which is in all things (even the "happy blades of grass") and having "no choice" but to experience all things...All shaping and making and creating together.

    Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger In A Strange Land






    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I remain.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #32 - January 17, 2009, 03:07 AM

    Oh right.  Well, natural selection isn't really based on self-preservation its based on gene replication, ie, success = reproduction.  Anything else - self-preservation, self-sacrifice, competition, altruism, co-operation etc, are subservient to that imperative.   Whatever technique gets your genes passed on to the next generation is what we're "designed" for.

    I wasn't attempting to define Darwins Theory, just saying how it has designed us to be. 

    Darwins end goal of reproduction is purely a personal objective, and supercedes everything else.  Care for the elderly will never be seen in the same light as care for our young.  We will ensure our offspring eat healthily, yet let other people starve.

    In context, this will always be incongruent with a perfect society, in which we care for each other equally, and not just for our own.  The Selfish Gene, by Dawkins goes into this concept in more depth.

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #33 - January 17, 2009, 06:47 AM

    Evolution does not preclude altruistic behaviour. It depends on what is advantageous for the species as a whole.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #34 - January 17, 2009, 12:15 PM

    Hmmm.  Didn't say it precluded it, and suppose it is possible if we had infinite time & resource.   

    How is perfect altruism, absolute unselfish concern for the welfare of others, possible when successful replication is our primary motivator?  Darwins theory does not apply to species as a whole, and applies to each organism individually.

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #35 - January 17, 2009, 12:54 PM

    Hmmm.  Didn't say it precluded it, and suppose it is possible if we had infinite time & resource.   

    How is perfect altruism, absolute unselfish concern for the welfare of others, possible when successful replication is our primary motivator?  Darwins theory does not apply to species as a whole, and applies to each organism individually.

    No disrespect but I think, IsLame, it's time you read 'Origin of species'. It seems to me that the influences on your Darwinian education have it arse about face. There is no 'intention' in evolution - it just is.
     Darwin only described what he observed and made some conclusions that many people accept as being an accurate interpretation.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #36 - January 17, 2009, 01:20 PM

    I havent read it, but thought he concluded there was an intention - to successfully replicate?

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #37 - January 17, 2009, 02:42 PM

    What if everything in this universe is an illusion? Would that mean anything for religion or the idea of a soul?

    I've thought that too.  How do we know anything is real, and this is all just a dream, all part of our subconscious.  Weird.  Must stop smoking the wacky backy! whistling2

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #38 - January 17, 2009, 05:01 PM

    I havent read it, but thought he concluded there was an intention - to successfully replicate?

    But that's the whole point, nothing successfully 'replicates'. There are many mutations, however slight,  that result from replicatory processes and, importantly, natural selective factors interact with these 'near copies' to winnow them out and allow the survival of  the mutation that best 'fits' the new situation.
     So mortality can result quickly to some mutations, say within a few generations, but very slowly to others, taking many generations before the full effects of the selective factor are manifested.

     A fast acting selective pressure eg we can use is the effect of Warfarin on rat liver. Warfarin acts to destroy rat liver and when it was first used to poison them, most rats were not able to grow enough replacement liver fast enough to counteract the rate of destruction and they died. However, a few rats were extremely good at replacing lost liver and they survived the onslaught.
     They can grow a complete new liver within 2-3 weeks and are able to use warfarin laced grain as just another food source within a few generations, the fast-liver gene becoming more prevalent in the popn in a relatively short time.

    An eg of a longer acting sel. pres. is the change in the human diet from a catch-it-as-you-can hunter-gatherer diet to one that became predominantly grain based about 10000 years ago, I think. We still have a sizeable portion of the popn that has problems with gluten digestion (and also with lactose in milk). So although the pressure is not generally lethal, it's probably enough to affect the breeding success of families without the gene that codes for the necessary digestive enzymes and perhaps takes 100s of generations rather than the 10s of generations it took rats to adapt.

    I'm not going to give links because you're an intelligent person and you can quickly google them for yourself and, besides, you've probably got alot more life left to you than I have, so waste some of your own. But if you have any probs getting them, just ask.
    But it's more complicated than that, because you have many selective pressures acting at once, an infinite number, acting together in many combinations.
    You've certainly opened pandora's box with this one. Good hunting!

    Life is never simple and real life is infinitely more complicated than the one described in that simplistic, mouldy book.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #39 - January 18, 2009, 01:27 AM

    What if everything in this universe is an illusion? Would that mean anything for religion or the idea of a soul?

    I've thought that too.  How do we know anything is real, and this is all just a dream, all part of our subconscious.  Weird.  Must stop smoking the wacky backy! whistling2


    We already have some people putting higher value on illusionary lives. People spend hours upon hours developing characters on these online games at the expense of their own. People will fork over real money just so they can get hold of fantasy objects which in reality are just pixels and code. The day when people can live lives of illusion (by choice or not) may not be far off.

    BRoll EyesB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #40 - January 18, 2009, 10:29 AM

    What if everything in this universe is an illusion? Would that mean anything for religion or the idea of a soul?

    I've thought that too.  How do we know anything is real, and this is all just a dream, all part of our subconscious.  Weird.  Must stop smoking the wacky backy! whistling2


    We already have some people putting higher value on illusionary lives. People spend hours upon hours developing characters on these online games at the expense of their own. People will fork over real money just so they can get hold of fantasy objects which in reality are just pixels and code. The day when people can live lives of illusion (by choice or not) may not be far off.

    BRoll EyesB



    Hello,

    Why are you called Submissive Bob, and why are you chained up in a cell?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #41 - January 18, 2009, 10:54 AM

    Hmmm.  Didn't say it precluded it, and suppose it is possible if we had infinite time & resource.   

    How is perfect altruism, absolute unselfish concern for the welfare of others, possible when successful replication is our primary motivator?  Darwins theory does not apply to species as a whole, and applies to each organism individually.


    Yes, selection pressures act on individuals but there's a complication: in species that reproduce sexually an individual needs others of its species to replicate. Therefore, you get the possibility of behaviour that is not directly beneficial to an individual but increases its likelihood of reproducing.

    Another factor is that what reproduces is genes, or more accurately combinations of genes. Similar genes are shared among closely related critters. So a behaviour that increases the likelihood of your relatives reproducing may end up making more little critters even if it kills you.

    This means that those genes will become more prevalent in the population, thus tending to perpetuate the behaviour. Evolution rapidly gets very complicated.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #42 - January 18, 2009, 10:57 AM

    I havent read it, but thought he concluded there was an intention - to successfully replicate?

    There is no intention. There are results. Evolution is not designed.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #43 - January 18, 2009, 12:47 PM

    Hmmm.  Didn't say it precluded it, and suppose it is possible if we had infinite time & resource.   

    How is perfect altruism, absolute unselfish concern for the welfare of others, possible when successful replication is our primary motivator?  Darwins theory does not apply to species as a whole, and applies to each organism individually.


    Yes, selection pressures act on individuals but there's a complication: in species that reproduce sexually an individual needs others of its species to replicate. Therefore, you get the possibility of behaviour that is not directly beneficial to an individual but increases its likelihood of reproducing.

    Another factor is that what reproduces is genes, or more accurately combinations of genes. Similar genes are shared among closely related critters. So a behaviour that increases the likelihood of your relatives reproducing may end up making more little critters even if it kills you.

    This means that those genes will become more prevalent in the population, thus tending to perpetuate the behaviour. Evolution rapidly gets very complicated.


    On the assumption that we may never achieve infinite time & resource, are saying that Darwinian Theory contradicts Maslow's Basic Hierarchy of Needs?

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #44 - January 18, 2009, 01:25 PM

    No, because they deal with two different things entirely.  Maslow's hierarchy is human psychology, Darwin's theory is an explanation of the diversification of species.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #45 - January 18, 2009, 01:56 PM

    No, because they deal with two different things entirely.  Maslow's hierarchy is human psychology, Darwin's theory is an explanation of the diversification of species.


    Yes, but I am suggesting these psychological selective pressures will always exist i.e. those that make us think about our family (at a primary level) more than others.  By others, I not only include the human race but all animals as well. 

    Coming back to the context that opened this pandora's box, I was trying to say we may never reach my idea of enlightenment (absolute altruism) because of this problem, but aiming towards cannot be a bad thing.

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  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #46 - January 22, 2009, 11:02 AM

    Never heard the expression, 'Life is what happens when you're planning something else'?  Never a truer word.
    I must add that there are 2 kinds of people: those who only look at our own species for the explanations; these 'intras' end up going round in perpetual mental hamster-wheels.
     And those who look at everything, the 'inters', in terms of evidence,  - from beyond the Universe, inwards. It's a huge, ongoing task, but so satisfying.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #47 - January 22, 2009, 11:05 AM

    Never heard the expression, 'Life is what happens when you're planning something else'?  Never a truer word.


    Or:

    One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it - Master oogway (kung fu panda)

    lol  Tongue

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #48 - January 22, 2009, 11:18 AM

    Never heard the expression, 'Life is what happens when you're planning something else'?  Never a truer word.


    Or:

    One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it - Master oogway (kung fu panda)

    lol  Tongue

    Yep, 'it's a travesty of a travesty of a travesty' all right, -Woody Allen.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Do you believe in Nothing?
     Reply #49 - January 24, 2009, 11:31 AM

    I have a hard time believing in the concept of nothing.

    But we are ultimately faced with the choice in believing in one of two boggling concepts. Nothingness (existence has physical boundaries which are somehow surrounded by nothingness) or Infinite existence (meaning that behind every wall there will always be something.)

    Now the bible will tell us that in the beginning there was nothing (except god). So how long did God sit around amongst nothing doing nothing before he started making stuff?

    But I digress. Lets forget about the Bible for now. Everything derived from our limited human experience lends us to believe that time has never stopped and we have no reason to believe it ever will or can. (Yes the light that we can see from certain stars was emitted in the past and has taken time to get to us, so in a sense we can look back into history but time did not reverse, it moves on.) No matter how far ahead in the future you wish to point at, I can point to the day after that. Reversely no matter how distant in the past you wish to point to, I can point to the day before that. Same concept can apply to space. So now we can all agree that time and space is infinite. (OK, my arguments are not infallible but the its better than nothing.)

    Now look how man is constantly evolving. Do we have any reason to believe this evolution is not infinite also? So if evolution is infinite and time is infinite then it is only logical that man can evolve into God.

    If there are billions of stars and say a one in a million chance those stars have planets that can sustain life then odds are that there are millions or billions or an infinite amount of planets that have produced life. If history is infinite then it is likely that some of those beings have already gone through the evolutionary stages we are currently in and have successfully evolved into life creating beings themselves (Gods?). So perhaps we were created by them and it is not so far fetched to think that man was created in Gods image because Man comes from God and God comes from man.

    If God came from man then it makes sense that God would not want to waste time developing beings whose individual banks of knowledge and experience are disposable upon the expiration of the flesh. It makes better sense to create beings whose inner growth can be built upon. God may want to store that growth in some sort of vessel, perhaps a soul (for a lack of a better word) that could be transferred to a higher form of life when that soul has met some criteria deemed essential to move up a level. That way the individual can benefit from previous experience and advancements used as a foundation for future growth, a growth that could be infinite.

    I am high.

    B :)B


    I think you are on the right track there, Bob.  To think otherwise drives people to despair and apathy, not to say cynicism.  I arrived to similar conclusions a long time ago.
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