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Theme Changer

 Topic: Respecting People's faith

 (Read 25976 times)
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  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #150 - June 03, 2009, 04:41 PM

    Reminds me of someone who claimed to be a Neo-Nazi on a forum who said something to the effect:

    "I'm a Nazi, but we have evolved. Our doctrine no longer calls for the extermination of the Jews and non aryan race or the isolation of the feeble and mentally challenged, but Mein Kanpf is the greatest work which we follow because it was written by a great man and must be reverred and respected."

    Should I accept Nazism and respect it, because he claims it has evolved and ignore what the doctrine actually says knowing very well one day a zealot will come along and influence the followers that to be a true Nazi you must follow the original words of the Fuhrer?


    EXACTLY!  Afro
    You took the words I was thinking of a.ghazali. There is a perfect parallel between Nazism and Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions and between Mein Kampf and the Bible/Quran. A diluted modifed version of Nazism is not going to leave many people feeling like they should be "respecting" it just because some of its latest followers say that all that bad stuff was in the past and all the fault of corrupt generals (clergy). No thanks.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #151 - June 06, 2009, 04:33 PM

    Wow, this thread has generated a lot of posts.

    I apologize for the brevity, but I have other commitments.
    In regard to Judaism and gender roles, the parallel is similar to that of Judaism and polygamy, and Judaism and slavery.  In all three, Judaism was evolutionary, if not revolutionary, in comparison to the other peoples of its times.  The trends to the ethics being espoused by many of you, and many here seem to suggest originated from the late modern age secularism, actually derived from the progressive development of these ideas from ancient times--and,for Western soceties, I'll state, from the ethics in Judaism and the democratic ideals that similarly were initiated in ancient Greece.
    I'll even suggest that in the absence of this religious foundation, the best that can be acheived is amorality.


    Well, History, since you said that you abhor blanket statements, its surprising that you make such statements about other peoples of those times or for that matter about all polytheists. What does its times mean? There are all sorts of societies & cultures at all times, some are more misogynistic than others, some horribly misogynistic, some practically absolutely egalitarian. The Taliban of our times are some of the worst misogynists, the Swedes are perhaps as egalitarian as possible. Many cultures fall in between, same is true of ancient times-the Egyptians & Celts were nicer, Graeco Romans were not so egalitarian, even in Greece-Athens & Sparta were pretty different & Roman laws also evolved, from the egalitarian Etruscans, to the Romans with their pater familias' absolute powers to a lessening of such powers etc. Some Native American tribes were very sexist, some pretty egalitarian.

    Ancient people are also like modern ones, they have a variety of laws in a variety of locations, their laws & customs change over time or when they come in contact with other cultures with different beliefs etc.

    Polygamy amongst Jews was abolished amongst the Ashkenazis due to European Christian monogamy, the Shaphardic & Yemenite Jews were polygamous until very recently, they never outlawed this practice before moving to Israel.

    Even with a religious monotheistic foundation, the Mid East doesn't seem to have achieved much-although they have all three faiths of Islam, Judaism & in some countries' Christianity. The ethics of Judaism, on which Muhammad based his religion seems to have gifted the mid East nothing but polygamy, unilateral repudiation of wives by their husbands,compulsory head coverings,intolerance towards other faiths & in some countries abhorrent stuff like stoning adulteresses & non virgins & the death penalty for apostasy.Muslim countries in South East Asia or even Bangladesh for that matter, which had a polytheistic ethic pre Islam & still have residues of that culture & religion, have far more gender equality, no unilateral repudiation & certainly no stonings. Yemen has both Islam & Judaism, it certainly doesn't have either religious freedom or gender equality, Azerbaijan, which is secular with a large % of non believers, has these values to a far greater extent.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #152 - June 06, 2009, 05:03 PM

     Cheesy Am I even allowed to come near this post?

    ...
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #153 - June 06, 2009, 06:10 PM

    Cheesy Am I even allowed to come near this post?


    Sure RIBS, if you mean my post, then you're free to say whatever you like about it. Posting here means that I, or anyone else has presented their opinions for scrutiny, if I'm so sensitive to criticism, I should be spending my time with fellow agnostic Zoroastrians!  Smiley

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #154 - June 06, 2009, 06:12 PM

    I think he is referring to his avatar and his beliefs on religion, and the actual thread itself, not your post.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #155 - June 06, 2009, 06:13 PM

    Cheesy Am I even allowed to come near this post?


     Cheesy

    I only just noticed your avatar. 

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #156 - June 06, 2009, 06:31 PM

    I think he is referring to his avatar and his beliefs on religion, and the actual thread itself, not your post.


    Take 2: Am I even allowed to come near this thread? parrot

    ...
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #157 - June 06, 2009, 06:33 PM

    Cheesy

    I only just noticed your avatar. 


    I thought you knew what RIBS mean!! Roll Eyes

    ...
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #158 - June 06, 2009, 06:33 PM

    Won't you damage the keyboard if you come near this thread?  Tongue




    Lol, damn that sexual innuendo was just too easy.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #159 - June 06, 2009, 06:41 PM

    I thought you knew what RIBS mean!! Roll Eyes


    Nope.  Amazingly, it never occurred to me to ponder the deeper meaning of anybody's nick.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #160 - June 06, 2009, 06:42 PM

    Nope.  Amazingly, it never occurred to me to ponder the deeper meaning of anybody's nick.


    I have, I immediately conlcuded that you must cheat at chess.  Tongue

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #161 - June 06, 2009, 06:44 PM

    I have, I immediately conlcuded that you must cheat at chess.  Tongue


    And I conclude that you are a fan of dodgy 1960s sci fi about women in leather.  So there.   Tongue

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #162 - June 06, 2009, 06:45 PM

    Under G-d, they are equal.  


    How are Jewish women equal under G-d? Under G-d's laws, as stated in the Torah, they got inheritance only if they didn't have brothers, G-d in the Torah seemed to have made only them barren, not their husbands(& when He opened their wombs, the resulting babies were always little boys), a woman's husband could complain that she isn't a virgin if she didn't bleed on her wedding night & if her parents produced no bloody sheets, G-d had said that she could be stoned on her father's doorstep, her husband could take another wife & love that wife more but he couldn't cheat his first born son out of his inheritance, he could feed her dangerous mud water if he suspected her of infidelity but there was no equivalent test for him & many more.

    Saying that Jewish women are equal under G-d is quite like saying Muslims & polytheists are equal in the Quran! Of course, Jewish women are equal under man modified laws currently but under G-d isn't true, just like Indonesian Muslims & polytheist Balinese are equal under Indonesian laws but under Islamic laws they certainly aren't equal.




    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #163 - June 06, 2009, 06:47 PM

    And I conclude that you are a fan of dodgy 1960s sci fi about women in leather.  So there.   Tongue


    Haha we are both so smart.  bunny

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #164 - August 29, 2009, 10:04 AM

    It's your opinion and you are entitled to it, however if you care about peoples sensitivities then it's probably better not to tell them that you think their religion is bullshit Wink Although not everyone will take offence to that.

    I'm becoming more disrespectful towards religion too, it's getting to the point where I can barely stand it. It makes sense to feel this way and I do wish theists would try and understand/respect how we atheists feel a little more rather than always commanding undeserved respect for their religion. They need to stop expecting others to shower praises over their religion or at the least try to understand that others may not necessarily agree with their teachings and even at times find them abhorrent.

    From what I've heard about History I am surprised he took offence to that. Maybe he just didn't expect it coming from someone like yourself?


    If someone wishes to believe in fables, myths and wishfull thinking, then so be it. As long as they don't impose it on me or my family. Alot of my family are nominal muslims and conduct their lives that way. When I say that I mean that they tend to do those things that would displease their god, such as backbite, slander, drinking etc. My atheism does not upset this bunch as much as it upsets the fundies. What I find disgusting though is that the religious expect their faith to be respected and that nobody takes offense at their religious practices, yet they don't extend that to others. This I find extremely odd.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #165 - August 29, 2009, 04:34 PM

    If someone wishes to believe in fables, myths and wishfull thinking, then so be it. As long as they don't impose it on me or my family. Alot of my family are nominal muslims and conduct their lives that way. When I say that I mean that they tend to do those things that would displease their god, such as backbite, slander, drinking etc. My atheism does not upset this bunch as much as it upsets the fundies. What I find disgusting though is that the religious expect their faith to be respected and that nobody takes offense at their religious practices, yet they don't extend that to others. This I find extremely odd.


    Not only to other religions, but to other groups. For example, homosexuals, they tell them to respect Islam and to be polite, yet they call homosexuals dirty/scum/filth/an abomination that is haraam. and they EXPECT the homosexuals to be polite towards Islam and Muslims!! Same with Jews and Christians, they smack talk their religion, saying they hate their beliefs and how they are deluded, and they want Christians to respect Islam!!! I know I should not generalize, but Muslims need to learn that respect is a TWO WAY STREET. If you shit talk about a religious group or homosexuals etc, they will not have your respect. End of fucking story.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #166 - August 29, 2009, 08:27 PM

    That's easy said... But what is respectful? How far can we go?
    Men in Iran already feel insulted when they see a woman with uncovered arms...
    There's also a HUGE difference between "insulting" Jews and Judaism.
    Insulting Jews is a prejudice, but insulting Judaism is just your opinion, since there's just 1 Judaism.

    To be honest, I don't understand why people feel insulted if you say something about their religion.
    So what if you don't like what they believe? xD
    I know I wouldn't feel insulted if someone said something bad about ex-muslims...
    Just makes him look stupid imo... xD


    Agreed, isnulting all muslims, christians, jews, is prejudice and i avoid that. but when it comes to Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, it is one book which anyone needs to judge once to know it. It's not a person who is different.

    saying all jews are bullshit is offensive, but saying Judaism is bullshit perfectly okay since it is not a person...

    Closets after closets
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #167 - August 30, 2009, 08:41 PM

    Islamic respect for Christianity is the funniest thing I've heard of. They deny the divinity of Jesus and expect them to be ok with it! It's like someone from a New Religion saying to a muslim: "We respect Allah. In fact, he was one of the greatest prophets of our tr00 religion, but he was just a man, not a god!"

    "At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #168 - August 30, 2009, 08:46 PM

    Quote
    Islamic respect for Christianity is the funniest thing I've heard of. They deny the divinity of Jesus and expect them to be ok with it! It's like someone from a New Religion saying to a muslim: "We respect Allah. In fact, he was one of the greatest prophets of our tr00 religion, but he was just a man, not a god!"


    Islamic respect for any faith is a joke! When muslims talk about the golden age of non-muslims living under muslim rule, they forget that it wasn't that they were respecting other faiths but were tolerating them at a cost that the people from other faiths had to pay.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #169 - August 30, 2009, 10:47 PM

    Islamic respect for Christianity is the funniest thing I've heard of. They deny the divinity of Jesus and expect them to be ok with it! It's like someone from a New Religion saying to a muslim: "We respect Allah. In fact, he was one of the greatest prophets of our tr00 religion, but he was just a man, not a god!"

    Being respectful doesn't mean you have to agree with it.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #170 - August 30, 2009, 10:50 PM

    If people have the right to tell me that I will roast and my skin will peel off and be reformed for not believing in Yahweh/Allah then I have the right to tell them how stupid and retarded they are.

    I respect people's right to a religion, and I will never treat someone differently for them having a religion, but I will never respect the religion, I will never choose words wisely about a figure to avoid offence or about a practice or idea-they have the right to preach I have the right to insult and offend. It is them who is offended, not me.

    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #171 - September 22, 2009, 11:10 AM

    It's a bit childish to offend just because you feel offended tho isn't it?

    Ha Ha.
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #172 - September 22, 2009, 12:30 PM

    I think Hassan you just got recognise that some people has a strong emotional attachment to their faith. So such statements will hurt them more than many people who aren't. I sometimes feel a strong emotional bond to Islam in the same way although since I looked at Islam and other religions from a logical and critical perspective, it has slowly reduced. I think people have to understand others as individuals, and the degree to which they may they be religious and deeply attached to their faith. This is why when you said what you said he may have taken it more personally than anything since Judaism is very close to his heart.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: Respecting People's faith
     Reply #173 - September 22, 2009, 02:14 PM

    I think Hassan you just got recognise that some people has a strong emotional attachment to their faith.

    Your absolutely right and I think it is the essence of the problem. People need to be encouraged to use the logical/problem solving part of their mind (rather than the emotional) when questioning and critically thinking.
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