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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 313917 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 9 10 1112 13 ... 61 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #300 - May 15, 2010, 02:12 PM

    It took me quite a while earlier today but I managed to get through this entire thread. I really applaud the efforts of the members here for taking on this project and doing their bit in their spare time.

    The more I read it, the more I too realise the potential of this book and how important it is. I really do hope that some sort of publication and circulation can be made, both in arabic as well as english. The internet is such a powerful medium and it is fantastic to see people from different countries and continents coordinating their efforts together. Religion is slowly but surely losing it's hold on humans because of this. Information just can't be stopped. I do hope the original arabic work can find its way in the arab world.

    I wish I could do something to help, but I'm not sure what lol
    I guess I shall just have to sit on the sidelines and cheer you lot on!

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #301 - May 15, 2010, 02:15 PM

    Think you're getting a bit ahead of yourself here.  At the current rate it looks like there's only Hassan doing the translation   Cry

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #302 - May 15, 2010, 02:20 PM

    It took me quite a while earlier today but I managed to get through this entire thread. I really applaud the efforts of the members here for taking on this project and doing their bit in their spare time.

    The more I read it, the more I too realise the potential of this book and how important it is. I really do hope that some sort of publication and circulation can be made, both in arabic as well as english. The internet is such a powerful medium and it is fantastic to see people from different countries and continents coordinating their efforts together. Religion is slowly but surely losing it's hold on humans because of this. Information just can't be stopped. I do hope the original arabic work can find its way in the arab world.

    I wish I could do something to help, but I'm not sure what lol
    I guess I shall just have to sit on the sidelines and cheer you lot on!


    As for the Arabic world, I can tell you from what I know about what would interest the Muslim Arabians, is the success or the big attention the English version would get. Say, if a TV news channel or some media means make a report about the English version, every body in the Arabic world will try to get hold of the original book. Without the attention, this book although it seems to have been arround for many years, no body cared to read it.

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #303 - May 15, 2010, 02:22 PM

    Yes, I totally agree.. but with so few translators I think we need to rethink our strategy.  Any good ideas?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #304 - May 15, 2010, 02:24 PM

    Well it's a mammoth task and it might take a while for the ball to really start rolling. Maybe the rest of us can encourage other volunteers to persevere so it's not just Hassan that's shouldering a lot of the work. He is very good though!

    Maybe there can be some sort of rotation, so that one person isn't left entirely in charge of coordinating everything. I guess maybe that's what could put a lot of people off.. no one wants to be stuck doing a lot since we all have busy lives.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #305 - May 15, 2010, 02:28 PM

    How many translators do we have on board again?

    Did anyone from the other arab forums express an interest?

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #306 - May 15, 2010, 06:20 PM

    This project is very sensitive. The translators have to be non-Muslims first of all. They have to be well knowledgable in religions and especially Islam and it's holy book. Other than that we could have asked a professional translators and we can share it's fee... Afro

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #307 - May 15, 2010, 06:27 PM

    I'm non-Muslim!  dance

    I can count to ten in arabic!

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #308 - May 15, 2010, 06:28 PM

    Just realized that this thread is read over 3000 times Afro

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #309 - May 15, 2010, 06:29 PM

    I'm non-Muslim!  dance

    I can count to ten in arabic!


    cool, you translate the first 10 page numbers. Cheesy

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #310 - May 15, 2010, 06:55 PM

    This project is very sensitive. The translators have to be non-Muslims first of all. They have to be well knowledgable in religions and especially Islam and it's holy book. Other than that we could have asked a professional translators and we can share it's fee... Afro


    im cool with that but somebody would have to administer the work and make sure its top class, maybe the organization can also help out?

    we should get the other book as well, the one you mentioned? is that one the same level?
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #311 - May 15, 2010, 07:15 PM

    im cool with that but somebody would have to administer the work and make sure its top class, maybe the organization can also help out?

    we should get the other book as well, the one you mentioned? is that one the same level?


    yes that book is nice too, but the author still alive and he lives in the UK. I can email him and ask if he is ok with that. I have contacted him before so he might remember me.

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #312 - May 15, 2010, 07:22 PM

    cool, you translate the first 10 page numbers. Cheesy

      Cheesy Cheesy

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #313 - May 15, 2010, 07:24 PM

    yes that book is nice too, but the author still alive and he lives in the UK. I can email him and ask if he is ok with that. I have contacted him before so he might remember me.

    whats that book about?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #314 - May 15, 2010, 07:33 PM

    Just spoke to Emerald on Facebook.  He can see the importance of the project and what it could do to help in exposing Islam for what it is.  He is going to join us on the thread and help us out a little.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #315 - May 16, 2010, 03:09 PM

    Whenever I sit down to do a bit of translating I keep making excuses not to do it now or let myself get distracted. It's a bit like doing homework - you keep putting it off or end up just shuffling the pens, making a cup of tea or deciding there is another thing you need to do first!

     grin12
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #316 - May 19, 2010, 12:45 PM

    1. Ibn al-Rawandi (d. 298H / 910AD)
    (Hassan: Note; none of his books have survived. What exists are quotes from critics.)

    At first the Dissident Movement, or the Movement of Heretics, was simply a spontaneous individual attitude or libertine outburst or a transient intellectual position, but then this movement began to manifest itself and crystalize with the passing of time until it became a comprehensive school of thought based on the pillars of reason. It acquired supporters who believed in it and worked to publicise it and disseminate it's principles. This movement continued to grow, consolidate and rise until it reached it's apex under Ibn al-Rawandi. His view of Prophethood formed the cornerstone of the the barrage on the Qur'an, by these Heretics, though without that extending to doubt in the existence of Allah who revealed the Qur'an.

    Doubt in Prophethood was the furthest extent that this movement of Heretics achieved in Islam. Then it came to a halt after a violent shake-up in concepts and doctrines grew out of it, in the 4th century (of Hijra) that drew towards it the movements of the concealed ideologies that were influenced by Gnosticism and Esoteric Knowledge and especially those associated with the Shi'ism and the Isma'iliyyah Shi'ism in particular.

    Ibn Rawandi was the most famous of the dissenters of the 3rd century of Hijrah, though only a little is known about him, even the date of his birth and death are not known for certain. He was originally a Mu'tazilite (A non-orthodox Sunni School of thought) then recanted and leaned towards Shi'ism and became a bitter enemy to the Mu'tazilites.

    He was a vehement believer in Reason, praising it and relying on it in all matters and affairs. Reason, in his opinion, was: "The greatest gift bestowed by God, glorified is he, upon his creation.  Indeed it is through it that the Lord and his blessings can be known and by virtue of it that orders & prohibitions, his promises & threats become valid." He wrote a book called "The Scandal of the Mu'tazilah"(12) which was a critical analysis of the Mu'tazilite School of thought from the perspective of the Shi'ah Al Rafidah and a reply to the book of al Jahiz "The Virtue of the Mu'tazilah". But this period did not last long and we see him after that amongst the group of those who the author of the "The Catalogue" (Kitab al-Fihrist, by Ibn al-Nadim d. 995 AD ) gives the title "Theologians who manifest Islam, but conceal heresy". He was influenced in this by Abu 'Isa al Warraq who was a teacher of his and encouraged him towards Heresy.

    Ibn Rawandi began his Heretical writings in the latter years of his life, and they are the books that he owes his importance and high status to. Amongst these books is a book where he dealt a massive blow to the Qur'an. He called it "The Crushing Blow". It was, as it's title suggests, a merciless attack on the Qur'an.

    A third book is attributed to him called the book of "The Emerald" where he refutes the concept of Prophethood in Islam and attacks the belief in the Miraculousness of the Qur'an. We said that this book is "attributed to him" due to a reference that it's said it's attributable to Al Jaba'iy and goes on to say: "Indeed Ibn al Rawandi and Abu 'Isa Muhammad Ibn Harun al Warraq the Heretic, also dispute with one another over the book of "The Emerald" each one claiming that it is amongst their compilations as both were in complete accordance in attacking the Qur'an." (13)

    In the the first and third parts of this book, Ibn al Rawandi (or Abu 'Isa al Warraq?) presents his opinion on Reason and Religions that depend on Revelation and explains the position on each. He  begins his book with Human Reason, praising it and going to great lengths in celebrating the fact that it is the only path to enlightenment.  For that reason his opponents must agree with him that Reason is the mightiest thing that man possesses and is the sole refuge to solve problems, indeed! "The prophet bore witness to the high status and majesty of Reason." (14)

    So Reason should be used to analyse Prophethood. Either the teachings of the Prophet agree with Reason, and in that case there is no need for it because Reason is in no need of it, or it contradicts reason in which case it is false. For that reason it was necessary for Ibn al Rawandi to be surprised at the position of Muhammad and wonder; "Why did he bring that which negates him if he was authentic?" (15) For the revelation of Muhammad is in complete opposition to reason. Then, what is the meaning of these obligatory religious injunctions upon the Muslim, such as ritual washing, and prayer and circumambulating around the Ka'abah and visiting the holy sites?

    Regarding that, Ibn al Rawandi says "Indeed the prophet brought that which contradicts Reason, such as prayer, ritual cleansing from impurity, throwing stones at pillars during Hajj, and walking around a house that cannot hear nor see? Or dashing between two rocky mounds that can neither benefit nor harm. All of this has nothing to do with Reason. So what is the difference between (the hills of) Safa and Marwa and (the hills of) Abu Qubays and Hira? And walking round the (holy) house is no different than walking round any other houses." (16)

    Ibn al Rawandi used the myths of the Brahmans to express his bold views. He used them as the means by which to attack "Divinely revealed" religions and laws (Hassan: Since it is easier for Muslims to recognise the superiority of using reason in relation to the claims of 'divine inspiration' of others,) so he could hide beneath this veil his belief (about Islam). He made them as analogies for the (necessity of) Reason and Intellect so that they could be set free of their own accord and express the views and thoughts that naturally occur to them, while attaching it to delusional characters to soften it's blows upon the audience.

    In this vein and in the name of Reason that he never ceases to praise and extol for a moment, he goes on to attack the Qur'an in his previously mentioned book "The Emerald". He reviews in this book the concept of the Miraculousness of the Qur'an and crticises it ruthlessly, and annihilates the view of the divine origin of the Qur'an and puts forward a simple, concrete, logical and reasoned view with no ambiguity in it. Convincing the intellect of the human nature of the Qur'an, refuting those who say that it is an inspiration from Allah and a revelation from an all-wise and all-knowing entity.

    It is also related that Ibn al Rawandi said - regarding refuting the belief in the miraculousness of the Qur'an:

    "Indeed it is not impossible that one arab tribe is more eloquent than all the other tribes, and that a group of people in this tribe are more eloquent than (others) in this tribe and one member of this group is more eloquent than this group... and suppose that his eloquence was spread amongst the Arabs... so what is it's wisdom upon the non-arabs who do not understand the Arabic language? What is the proof for them?" (17)

    And Ibn al Rawandi mocked the theatrical spectacle of the angels who Allah sent down from heaven during the battle of Badr, to help the prophet. He said, indeed: "They had limited effect, little power, despite their great number and the combination of them and Muslims, they could not kill more than 70 people... And where were the angels during the battle of Uhud when the prophet was skulking in fear amongst the slain? Why didn't Allah help him in that situation?" (18)

    It was also related in the book of "The Emerald", quoting from the book of "The Victory" by Al Khayyat, his saying: "Indeed the Qur'an is not the speech of a wise god. In it are contradictions and mistakes and passages that are in the realms of the impossible." As in the theatrical episode of the angels of Badr that we just mentioned.

    Then indeed Ibn al Rawandi finds in the discourse of Aktham Ibn Sayfi better (language) than (the Qur'an that boasts) "Indeed we have given you the Abundance" (108/1) (20) As Ibn al Jawzi says in his brief allusion to the book of "The Emerald": "Then he begins with attack on the Qur'an and claims the existence of linguistical mistakes in it." (21)

    And before ibn al Rawandi exploits criticism of the Qur'an in his book "The Crushing Blow", and Ibn Jawzi has preserved for us copies of this criticism, for amongst the parts that he preserved for us in his book "Al Muntathim Fi al Tarikh", from the book of "The Crushing Blow" which has not survived, the following piece: "When (Muhammad) described (in the Qur'an) Paradise, he said: In it are rivers of laban, whose taste has not gone off, and that is milk, yet no one desires that apart from the hungry. And he mentioned honey that no-one wants at all and Ginger, which is not tasty except as a drink and silk brocade (sundus) which is used as a spread, not as clothes and likewise embroidered brocade (Istabriq) which is a thick/rough type of silk brocade. He said one who imagines himself in Paradise wearing this rough clothing and drinking milk and ginger, will be like a bride in a Kurdish or Nabataean wedding!" (22)

    Ibn al Rawandi turns his attention to the Divine challenge to bring the like of the Qur'an and says: "If you want the like of it in respect of superior speech, we can bring you a thousand like it from the speech of the masters of rhetoric and champions of eloquence and poets and is more fluent in wording and more concisely conveys the meanings, more elegantly rendered and expressed and more beautifully rhymed. An if you are not content with that then we demand from you the same that you demand from us!" (23)

    (Hassan: There appears to be a opening quotation mark missing from the original in this next bit, and I'm not sure where it should go.)
    Even the Mu'tazilah who reject all Miracles or at least attach no importance to them, still believe in the miracle of the Qur'an. (24) But Al Nazzam, who was the most bold and freethinking of the Mu'tazilite theologians, rejected the miraculous nature of the Qur'an in regard to it's composition, he rejected what was related of miracles of our prophet, peace be upon him, as regards splitting the moon, the pebbles in his hand glorifying God, the gushing of water from his fingers, to arrive by way of rejection of the miracles of our prophet, peace be upon him, to the rejection of his prophethood." (25)

    (11) Quoted from Dr. Abd al Rahman Badawi, from "History of Disbelief in Islam" page 202.

    (12) See: The previous reference, page 87, 186 and that which is after it.

    (13) Quote from the previous reference p 112 and 182.

    (14) Quote from the pervious reference p. 186-187.

    (15) Quote from the pervious reference p. 84.

    (16) Quote from the pervious reference 101-102. Abu Qubais and Hira are mountains in Makkah.

    (17) Quote from the previous reference p 87.

    (18) Quote from the previous reference p 87.

    (19) Quote from the previous reference p 110.

    (20) Quote from the previous reference p 111.

    (21) Quote from the previous reference p 120.

    (22) Quote from the previous reference p 133.

    (23) Quote from the previous reference p 216.

    (24) Quote from the previous reference p 119 and 153.

    (25) Al Baghdadi, "The Difference Between the Groups", p 132; See also p 149-150
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #317 - May 19, 2010, 12:45 PM

    I should get paid for this - it quite hard work lol  grin12
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #318 - May 19, 2010, 12:51 PM

    Hassan my friend we salute you!!! I think you are the only one on here that's really qualified to translate this book. Maybe you can get paid when it's published, lol.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #319 - May 19, 2010, 12:57 PM

    Hassan your bar tab for one night is on me mate.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #320 - May 19, 2010, 01:03 PM

    I should get paid for this - it quite hard work lol  grin12

    you really should, I'm totally cereal

    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #321 - May 19, 2010, 01:12 PM

    I should get paid for this - it quite hard work lol  grin12


    We are in your debt for this Hassan - in fact many, many people from generations yet to come may be in your debt, and the debt of all the translators, because it seems that this is a significant work, and the translation of it will be of great value to dissenters from Islam.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #322 - May 19, 2010, 01:12 PM

    Hassan your bar tab for one night is on me mate.


    I'll keep you to that!  grin12
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #323 - May 19, 2010, 01:30 PM

    I should get paid for this - it quite hard work lol  grin12


    lulu.com - I'll buy it Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #324 - May 19, 2010, 01:32 PM

    I should get paid for this - it quite hard work lol  grin12


    Hass, next time I visit London, I am inviting you to lunch in a resturant of your choice.  Afro

    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #325 - May 19, 2010, 01:34 PM

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #326 - May 19, 2010, 01:35 PM

    one who imagines himself in Paradise wearing this rough clothing and drinking milk and ginger, will be like a bride in a Kurdish or Nabataean wedding!"


    This bit made me laugh - I hope no-one was offended (anyway blame the author lol). Besides it's not just Kurds who like gaudy weddings.

    But the image of everyone done up like peacocks - or Liberace in drag - sipping milk and ginger in heaven cracked me up  Cheesy
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #327 - May 19, 2010, 01:38 PM

    Drinking ginger? wtf
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #328 - May 19, 2010, 01:38 PM

    Does he mean they will serve this in heaven:

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #329 - May 19, 2010, 02:07 PM

    Amazing work Hassan.
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