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 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #840 - June 15, 2010, 12:40 PM
    Question: Sometimes the dates of the death of a person are given in the text. E.g. d. 780. Should I use a cross symbol instead of the "d." abbreviation? What do you think?
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #841 - June 15, 2010, 12:41 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 15, 2010, 12:39 PM
    I'm really fussy about that. I actually correct my posts after proofreading them.

    proof-reading


    Actually, I'll let you off with this one. Tongue
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #842 - June 15, 2010, 12:49 PM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofreading

    http://www.courseworks.unimelb.edu.au/researchandwriting/editingandproofreading.php

    Go back to school, boyo.  dance
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #843 - June 15, 2010, 12:50 PM
    Quote from: osmanthus on June 15, 2010, 12:49 PM
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proofreading

    http://www.courseworks.unimelb.edu.au/researchandwriting/editingandproofreading.php

    Go back to school, boyo.  dance


    boyo is not a word Cheesy
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #844 - June 15, 2010, 12:54 PM
    It's colloquial. I am allowed to use colloquialisms if I wish to. So nya. Tongue
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #845 - June 15, 2010, 12:58 PM
    what is the equivalent of mother to boyo? I know Dadyo is for father!  whistling2
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #846 - June 15, 2010, 09:59 PM
    Alright everyone, the first version of PatchPad is ready to be used. To send me corrections visit: My_Ordeal_With_The_Quran.tex

    Here's how it works: Look at the PDF or the plain text document. If you find a mistake, simply correct it. When you click "Send Changes", I will receive an e-Mail detailing the exact changes you made. I will apply those changes. After some time the document in PatchPad will reflect the changes you suggested to me. Pretty easy. Wink

    Let me know if you find a bug or something that's annoying you.

    You can now go ahead and proof-read the document.
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #847 - June 16, 2010, 07:31 AM
    Cool. Thanks for that. One point: how do we know when something has been proofread and corrected? The reason I ask is because it would be annoying to correct a certain section and then have someone else come along later and "correct" it by adding a mistake back in. Really what would be awesome is something like svn where you can lock out certain folders and revert commits.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #848 - June 16, 2010, 09:52 AM
    Well, that ppl can't see the changes immediately is a problem we have to tolerate for now. I could place a list on the right-hand side which shows who has submitted which changes. That feedback could be helpful, but the base version of the document would still be unchanged. The PDF won't see those changes anyway, until I update it. The thing is, if I let anybody edit and save the text it could create conflicts or even attract vandalism. And creating a login system with rights management is far too complicated and time-consuming.

    PatchPad is something I just wrote in a couple of days. It may be simple but it does its job very well, and it certainly is much better than reading forum posts where users have to explain to me where to make corrections.

    You're right, two users could make the same correction to the same line, and they may be in conflict. But since I review the changes I will choose to apply the ones that make sense. Not a huge issue I think.

    Regarding SVN: I already use a "repository system" called Git at: http://github.com/alsanaaziz/salam (The files are fetched from there and cached by PatchPad.)
    Now the problem is, a lot of ppl don't know what these systems are (let alone know how to use them). That's why I created PatchPad, so that anybody can submit patches to me. The great thing about PatchPad is, that you can choose to edit ANY document in my repository (URL: pad.php?doc=...).
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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    CEMB-Chat
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #849 - June 16, 2010, 10:20 AM
    To Arabic speakers: I could need some help with transliterating the `ayin and the hamza in Arabic names. Search the text for \` (=ayin) and replace it with \´ (=hamza), if it is incorrect. Give a word here before doing this, so that only one person works on this task.
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
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    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #850 - June 16, 2010, 10:21 AM
    Ok, sounds good. I'm used to working with svn which is why I thought of it but of course a lot of others would never have used it.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #851 - June 16, 2010, 11:00 AM
    Chapter 4  - The Miraculous Nature of  the Qurʾān (cont...)

    Part 4 - Where is the Eloquence of the Qurʾān? (cont...)

    Disjointedness and imbalance in verses of the Qur'an are the rule, while cohesion, continuity and consistency are the exception.

    3. What do you say, please, about the following verses? Give me your opinion on the matter oh masters of clear speech and eloquence, oh guardians of logic and evidence. Allah - Exalted is He - said during the story of Yunus (Jonah) when the whale swallowed him up:

    But had it not been that he was of those who glorify,

    He would certainly have remained in its belly till the day when they are raised.

    Then We cast him on to the bare shore in a state of sickness.

    And We caused to grow up for him a gourd-plant.

    And We sent him to a hundred thousand, or more.

    And they believed, so We gave them comfort for a while.

    Now ask them their opinion: Is it that your Lord has daughters while they have sons?

    Or did We create the angels females while they were witnesses?
    (37:143-150)

    What do angels and their gender have to with the story of Yunus, here? How about adding a new section to the subdivisions of eloquence called the Section of Dissonance or the Section of Incongruity or such headings that signify the upside-down standards in the Qur'an?

    4. Perhaps the cocktail quality here won't show too much after a bit of patching-up, making it possible to link these disparate verses in the usual style of the people (the Mufassirun). But what sort of patching-up can link the elements of this cocktail which the eye cannot miss? A verse from the East and a verse from the West, and 'from every valley a stick', as they say. (NB: Arabic saying meaning; 'hotchpotch'; a confused mixture.)

    On the Day when the excuse of the wrongdoers will not benefit them and they will be cursed and have an evil abode.

    And We indeed gave Moses the guidance, and We made the children of Israel inherit the Book,

    A guide and a reminder for men of understanding.
     

    Then have patience, surely the promise of Allah is true, and ask forgiveness for your sin and sing the praise of your Lord in the evening and the morning.

    Lo! those who wrangle concerning the revelations of Allah without a warrant having come unto them, there is naught else in their breasts save pride which they will never attain. So take thou refuge in Allah. Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.
     

    Indeed the creation of the heavens and the earth is greater than the creation of the men, but most people do not know
    (40:52-57)

    Indeed it appears that the disjointedness in the verses of the Qur'an is part of the necessary requirements of the Wise Revelation! Turn the pages of the Qur'an as you like, you will not find one page free of disjointedness. They jump out at you without any effort to search and hunt for them. So is there some profound wisdom in that which eludes our inadequate minds? That only the 'firm in knowledge' can comprehend, and 'how few are they!' (Qur'anic references.)
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #852 - June 16, 2010, 11:14 AM
    Quote
    Indeed it appears that the disjointedness in the verses of the Qur'an is part of the necessary requirements of the Wise Revelation! Turn the pages of the Qur'an as you like, you will not find one page free of disjointedness.

     

    How about Surah, Yusuf? Al-Rahman?

    Anyway, the disjointness is there, I'm not denying it and I can only think that this due to the fact that many Surahs weren't revealed all at once. So the "patchiness" in many Surahs are bound to happen.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #853 - June 16, 2010, 11:30 AM
    But God couldn't reveal them in order or have Muhammad edit them in order afterwards?

    Imagine if I tried to this for a paper at university. You think my teacher or fellow students would accept it as a good written article?

    Looking at it with a supernatural agent it looks perfectly clear why it is the way it is. But having it revelead from a supernatural agent you have to make up an excuse  bunny

    And welcome back btw  far away hug
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #854 - June 16, 2010, 11:31 AM
    Nothing is bound to happen unless Allah wills it. Wink
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  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #855 - June 16, 2010, 11:34 AM
    Not even the Quran *drum roll*
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #856 - June 16, 2010, 11:42 AM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 16, 2010, 11:30 AM
    But God couldn't reveal them in order or have Muhammad edit them in order afterwards?

    Imagine if I tried to this for a paper at university. You think my teacher or fellow students would accept it as a good written article?

    Looking at it with a supernatural agent it looks perfectly clear why it is the way it is. But having it revelead from a supernatural agent you have to make up an excuse  bunny

    And welcome back btw  far away hug


    Hmm, come to think of it, I forgot to add that this disjointness is far more prevalent in Medinan Surahs (as opposed to Meccan Surahs)... and I mentioned elsewhere that I think that challenge was pertaining to Meccan Surahs (it was an early challenge to Meccans)...

    Anyway, there's no need for editing... you see the next verse changing topic, then you already know it's like a subsection of the same chapter.
    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #857 - June 16, 2010, 11:52 AM
    Grin if you say so.

    It's like a Tarantino flick, scenes changing rapidly, flashbacks, violence, women, hell and torture.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #858 - June 16, 2010, 03:30 PM
    Here's a thought that occurred to me:

    The pre-Islamic poets were often said to be inspired by Jinn and supernatural forces because they would stand up in a crowd and just come out with these amazing and intricate Qasidas that dumbfounded and captivated their audience. (Some made Sujud - prostration- when they heard them!)

    However as the Arab historians themselves recorded, they had learnt the skills from other poets and this method evolved until it was at it's height just before Islam. The method they used to 'instantly' create a poem was basically to use well defined templates and stock phrases and references etc... which they could tinker with and adjust slightly according to their needs at the time. Their individual skill came in building these various elements into a 'new' poem - often adding the name of someone they are praising, disparaging or yearning for.

    In other words they had a collection of individual 'bricks' - or groups of 'bricks' - that they could instantly lay upon each other in different orders to piece together in their own way.

    Muhammad grew up at the height and centre of this and when it was now a well formed and well-trodden method. He may not have composed Qasidas on the spot - but over 20 years he used a similar method of using repeated stock phrases and imagery - as is very apparent in the Qur'an - and pieced these independent bricks together  and shuffled them about in the way pre-Islamic poets did and was familiar to him - and I'm not talking about metered poetic style - but the method of placing almost wholly independent bricks or collection of bricks to form a big structure. As a result the Qur'an has the feel of moving from one thing to another in a disjointed way - independent units - rather than having continuity and taking ideas on in a flowing and more consecutive manner.

    Just a thought.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #859 - June 16, 2010, 03:33 PM
    ^^ deep shit
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #860 - June 16, 2010, 03:40 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on June 16, 2010, 03:33 PM
    ^^ deep shit

     yes deep HOLLY shit indeed
    ...
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #861 - June 16, 2010, 03:52 PM
    deep holly shit? oww that shit would hurt to poop.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #862 - June 16, 2010, 04:10 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 16, 2010, 03:30 PM
    Here's a thought that occurred to me:

    The pre-Islamic poets were often said to be inspired by Jinn and supernatural forces because they would stand up in a crowd and just come out with these amazing and intricate Qasidas that dumbfounded and captivated their audience. (Some made Sujud - prostration- when they heard them!)

    However as the Arab historians themselves recorded, they had learnt the skills from other poets and this method evolved until it was at it's height just before Islam. The method they used to 'instantly' create a poem was basically to use well defined templates and stock phrases and references etc... which they could tinker with and adjust slightly according to their needs at the time. Their individual skill came in building these various elements into a 'new' poem - often adding the name of someone they are praising, disparaging or yearning for.

    In other words they had a collection of individual 'bricks' - or groups of 'bricks' - that they could instantly lay upon each other in different orders to piece together in their own way.

    Muhammad grew up at the height and centre of this and when it was now a well formed and well-trodden method. He may not have composed Qasidas on the spot - but over 20 years he used a similar method of using repeated stock phrases and imagery - as is very apparent in the Qur'an - and pieced these independent bricks together  and shuffled them about in the style of the pre-Islamic poets that was familiar to him - and I'm not talking about metered poetic style - but the method of placing almost wholly independent bricks or collection of bricks to form a big structure. As a result the Qur'an has the feel of moving from one thing to another in a disjointed way - independent cards in a pack - rather having continuity and taking ideas on in a flowing and more consecutive manner.

    Just a thought.


    Heck I was watching a documentary about a Saudi Prince who goes listens to his peoples' problems in the desert.  The people were bedouins and they addressed him and told him what they needed in the form of poems, literally... starting by praising him and then telling him that their car broke down, as if reciting a poem..  It rhymed as well when they said it.
    "Modern man's great illusion has been to convince himself that of all that has gone before he represents the zenith of human accomplishment, but can't summon the mental powers to read anything more demanding than emoticons. Fascinating. "

    One very horny Turk I met on the net.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #863 - June 16, 2010, 07:30 PM
    What happened to the author ,is he still alive or did they hang him?


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #864 - June 17, 2010, 06:52 AM
    Quote from: hypocrucifier on June 16, 2010, 07:30 PM
    What happened to the author ,is he still alive or did they hang him?


    The author is unknown. The name and details given are almost certainly false.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #865 - June 17, 2010, 07:29 AM
     Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Al Taqiyya at its very best! But hey! can you be sure of its genuineness? I mean it could have been a Catholic/atheist ,with a deep knowledge of the Quran , who wrote the book. Not that it matters to a lot of us infidels,provided what he says is objective and a provable truth.But the punch would be immensely more powerful if it came from an insider.Since I don't know Arabic,could you  or some one else please tell me whether there's any way of confirming that he is really who he claims to be ?


    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #866 - June 17, 2010, 08:48 AM
    Quote from: hypocrucifier on June 17, 2010, 07:29 AM
    Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Al Taqiyya at its very best! But hey! can you be sure of its genuineness? I mean it could have been a Catholic/atheist ,with a deep knowledge of the Quran , who wrote the book. Not that it matters to a lot of us infidels,provided what he says is objective and a provable truth.But the punch would be immensely more powerful if it came from an insider.Since I don't know Arabic,could you  or some one else please tell me whether there's any way of confirming that he is really who he claims to be ?



    It could indeed by by an Arab Christian with excellent knowledge of the Qur'an and Islam and that will no doubt be the main direction of attack on it when (and if) we can get it published. (In the absence of a real argument people always resort to ad hominem.)

    My own suspicious nature keeps me scanning every word and line to see if I can get a 'feel' for who the author is. It is difficult to say for sure but I still get the sense he was a Muslim - as I said previously I have never come across Arab Christians who haven't given away some clues as to who they really are or who have such depth of knowledge and more important 'experience' and 'perspective' that someone who really was a Muslim has.

    I could be wrong of course - but it doesn't matter as the book stands on it's own merits and frankly I wish I had written it myself as a great deal of what it says is spot on and completely in line with what I myself have thought and observed.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #867 - June 17, 2010, 08:51 AM
    Quote from: Hassan on June 16, 2010, 03:30 PM
    Here's a thought that occurred to me:

    The pre-Islamic poets were often said to be inspired by Jinn and supernatural forces because they would stand up in a crowd and just come out with these amazing and intricate Qasidas that dumbfounded and captivated their audience. (Some made Sujud - prostration- when they heard them!)

    However as the Arab historians themselves recorded, they had learnt the skills from other poets and this method evolved until it was at it's height just before Islam. The method they used to 'instantly' create a poem was basically to use well defined templates and stock phrases and references etc... which they could tinker with and adjust slightly according to their needs at the time. Their individual skill came in building these various elements into a 'new' poem - often adding the name of someone they are praising, disparaging or yearning for.

    In other words they had a collection of individual 'bricks' - or groups of 'bricks' - that they could instantly lay upon each other in different orders to piece together in their own way.

    Muhammad grew up at the height and centre of this and when it was now a well formed and well-trodden method. He may not have composed Qasidas on the spot - but over 20 years he used a similar method of using repeated stock phrases and imagery - as is very apparent in the Qur'an - and pieced these independent bricks together  and shuffled them about in the way pre-Islamic poets did and was familiar to him - and I'm not talking about metered poetic style - but the method of placing almost wholly independent bricks or collection of bricks to form a big structure. As a result the Qur'an has the feel of moving from one thing to another in a disjointed way - independent units - rather than having continuity and taking ideas on in a flowing and more consecutive manner.

    Just a thought.

    So were the Qasidas metered or not?

    ETA: Oh and the basic idea sounds very much like freestyle rap. Wink
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #868 - June 17, 2010, 08:53 AM
    Yes Qasidas were metered and the Qur'an is nothing like the Qasidas. It's the 'method' that I'm comparing.
  • Re: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #869 - June 17, 2010, 08:56 AM
    Cool. I thought so but I wasn't sure. So basically, Mohammed tried to use the method but wasn't nearly as good at it.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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