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 Topic: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time

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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #60 - May 18, 2010, 12:29 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 18, 2010, 12:21 PM
    How do you rationalize that belief against the fact that the Quran talks so much about punishment in order to make the reader have fear?


    That's for the lesser mortals - ignorant rabble - who won't respond to anything else.

    That's the usual argument.

    Funny how I never meet any of these guys who say "Yeah, we obey coz we're scared shitless!"
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #61 - May 18, 2010, 12:30 PM
    I think Free from Religion or Faith Free or whatever his name is grew up scared of Allah.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #62 - May 18, 2010, 12:35 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 18, 2010, 12:21 PM
    How do you rationalize that belief against the fact that the Quran talks so much about punishment in order to make the reader have fear?


    I think the Qur'an talks about punishment and reward quite a lot because in this world there is a lot of injustice everywhere - the Qur'an is repeatedly telling us that one day there will be justice - and it's important for several reasons to bear this in mind.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #63 - May 18, 2010, 12:36 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 12:35 PM
    I think the Qur'an talks about punishment and reward quite a lot because in this world there is a lot of injustice everywhere - the Qur'an is repeatedly telling us that one day there will be justice.


    BUT, how do you rationalize that against your belief that fear makes no sense?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #64 - May 18, 2010, 12:39 PM
    i said it doesn't make sense to beleive in God because of fear
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #65 - May 18, 2010, 12:45 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 12:39 PM
    i said it doesn't make sense to beleive in God because of fear


    Quran
    2:23 - And if ye are in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto Our slave (Muhammad), then produce a surah of the like thereof, and call your witness beside Allah if ye are truthful.
    2:24 - And if ye do it not - and ye can never do it - then guard yourselves against the Fire prepared for disbelievers, whose fuel is of men and stones.

    In other words, if you do not believe then have lots of fear because you are going to burn in fire for ever and ever.....amen.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #66 - May 18, 2010, 12:51 PM
    here is something i wrote recently about 'disbelief' and hell.


    Hell and Kuffar.

    Even though the word 'Kafir' is most commonly translated to unbeliever/disbeliever/infidel, the more literal translation of the word describes one who 'covers up (the truth)'. In my opinion the word kafir was never meant to generally refer to disbelievers/non-Muslims - it refers to those who with all their senses KNOW the truth but cover it up. Who might these individuals be? In my opinion they are people who were present at the time of Prophet Muhammad and the time the Quran was revealed - it was only these people who could possibly KNOW the truth. The covering of the truth by those who interacted with a messenger of God is considered a crime punishable by hell in scripture - in my opinion - and 'kafir' therefore does not refer to those who do not BELIEVE in general.

    The reason why I think this is a very important point is because it reflects on how we see our fellow human being. People cannot control what they believe - should Muslims really be looking down upon those who do not believe as somehow inferior? For example a common attitude amongst some Muslims is that 'these non-believers are going to be sent to hell by God anyway - so why should we bother treat them nicely or with any worthy respect'. This sort of attitude I guess also exists within the subconscious of even many ordinary Muslims. We should not simply be viewing non-Muslims/Atheists as people who we could simply get along with but instead as people with whom we share common goals with - working toward the greater good for humanity.

    Whether Atheist or Muslim, we all have God-given souls - and maybe we were always supposed to evolve into beings who can use their souls and intellect to decide what is right/wrong or good/bad. Perhaps scriptures/revelations were important in helping us along the way to evolve into what we are now, but were only much more relevant for the time in which they were sent. Bottom line, whether we believe in scripture or not, whether we believe in any religion or are Atheist - we all have common goals - we do good for the sake of good - and that is ultimately the kind of worship God is after.




    In addition there are some well-respected scholars who beleive that Hell is not eternal, no matter what the offence and that the punishments/rewards described in Quran may be metaphorical.

    Cue onslaught....
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #67 - May 18, 2010, 12:57 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 18, 2010, 12:30 PM
    I think Free from Religion or Faith Free or whatever his name is grew up scared of Allah.


    Oh I there is no doubt fear is a massive factor - but Muslims are reluctant to admit it because when examined it is not a good reason to believe or obey. It is immoral and reflects very badly on God. So you will find very few Muslims - if any - admitting to fear as the reason for their belief/obedience. They will always say it is for "others"  Roll Eyes Though those others never step forward to say so. (Ex-Muslims will of course confess it was a factor! They no longer feel compelled to defend the moral integrity of the Qur'an)
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #68 - May 18, 2010, 01:01 PM
    Shit it might even be a factor why people are worried even after they leave the religion. I mean we are raised with the fear of hell, and eternal hell. Even if it was 1 second. We are talking fire, not a whipping. And for what? I didn't even get to choose this religion, it was imposed on me. I really doubt I would have been a muslim had I been raised with no religion, somehow the fact that a 7th century merchant became a prophet and had an angel talking to him would convince me. Reading the Quran without faith-glasses I really doubt I would go yes this is defintly from the Creator of the Universe.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #69 - May 18, 2010, 01:02 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 12:35 PM
    I think the Qur'an talks about punishment and reward quite a lot because in this world there is a lot of injustice everywhere - the Qur'an is repeatedly telling us that one day there will be justice - and it's important for several reasons to bear this in mind.


    Eternal torture is not justice.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #70 - May 18, 2010, 01:04 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on May 18, 2010, 01:01 PM
    Shit it might even be a factor why people are worried even after they leave the religion. I mean we are raised with the fear of hell, and eternal hell. Even if it was 1 second. We are talking fire, not a whipping. And for what? I didn't even get to choose this religion, it was imposed on me. I really doubt I would have been a muslim had I been raised with no religion, somehow the fact that a 7th century merchant became a prophet and had an angel talking to him would convince me. Reading the Quran without faith-glasses I really doubt I would go yes this is defintly from the Creator of the Universe.


    Yes indeed - I still sometimes fear that I may burn eternally Hell.

    Even if it is an absurd irrational fear - a tiny atom that comes in moments of insecurity and doubt - eternal roasting is fucking scary!
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #71 - May 18, 2010, 01:04 PM
    It doesn't make sense to me.  How can a Pagan be someone who deliberately conceals the truth? Why would they conceal they truth in order to avoid worshipping Allah, and then worship some lump of wood?

    I can understand your interpretation, and there are parts where the Quran certainly does look like it is only calling SOME of the Jews/Christians unbelievers.  However now all Christians are trinitarians, and I am not aware of any Jews calling Esra the son of God - so it is likely in those cases he was singling out those people committing shirk.


    However, I think he also used it to describe people who "do not believe".
    007:101    We narrate to you the stories of these towns. Their messengers certainly brought them the clear proofs. But they (just) would not believe the message they had already rejected earlier. Thus, Allah stamps a seal on the hearts of the unbelievers.

    This is not covering up what you know to be true, this is simply not believing.

    Many times I have had Muslims tell me that I LIE in saying I don't believe in Islam. Having been at the other end of this accusation I strongly suspect that "cover up" was a tool that Muhammad used - the technique was simple

    "WE know this is true because it is so obvious. THEY claim it is untrue, but it is so obviously true they must just be covering up their feelings because they want to spend their lives doing whatever THEY please rather than what Allah wants from them".

    I've been accused of this very thing many times myself. It helps some believers to understand why others don't believe, they DO believe, they just cover it up.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #72 - May 18, 2010, 01:06 PM
    Abu let's remove the fire and imagine God whipping people. Does that picture make any sense? It just seems so weird.

    Like imagine a line of people bowing and somebody whipping these evil-doers.

    I can't make sense of this image, I mean this is punishment no other way of looking at it. It's torture. And why? For disbelieving. People saying hell is a metaphor, that's not a good answer, because a symbol stands for a tangible value. And it's physical and mental punishment and torture. And grievous kind. You can't get past this.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #73 - May 18, 2010, 01:07 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 18, 2010, 01:04 PM

    However, I think he also used it to describe people who "do not believe".
    007:101    We narrate to you the stories of these towns. Their messengers certainly brought them the clear proofs. But they (just) would not believe the message they had already rejected earlier. Thus, Allah stamps a seal on the hearts of the unbelievers.

    This is not covering up what you know to be true, this is simply not believing.

    +1
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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #74 - May 18, 2010, 01:09 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 12:51 PM
    Cue onslaught....



    No onslaught - you are intelligent enough to see the problems in your argument.

    I'm sure you have seen this vid - but I'll post it anyway since it is on topic:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz3dyvqDSdE
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #75 - May 18, 2010, 01:10 PM
    Me get no love from Yunus: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10331.msg268364#msg268364
     Cry
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #76 - May 18, 2010, 01:12 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2010, 12:57 PM
    Oh I there is no doubt fear is a massive factor - but Muslims are reluctant to admit it because when examined it is not a good reason to believe or obey. It is immoral and reflects very badly on God. So you will find very few Muslims - if any - admitting to fear as the reason for their belief/obedience. They will always say it is for "others"  Roll Eyes Though those others never step forward to say so. (Ex-Muslims will of course confess it was a factor! They no longer feel compelled to defend the moral integrity of the Qur'an)


    I think most Muslims do not beleive because they fear God - at least not the younger generation today - maybe with the older generation this was true. Muslims and other religous people do not lack courage - although this seems to be a popular sentiment on this board - and they are no less braver than anyone who leaves Islam/religion.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #77 - May 18, 2010, 01:18 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 01:12 PM
    I think most Muslims do not beleive because they fear God - at least not the younger generation today - maybe with the older generation this was true. Muslims and other religous people do not lack courage - although this seems to be a popular sentiment on this board - and they are no less braver than anyone who leaves Islam/religion.


    Personally I never feared hell at all, any loving god would never create such a place so obviously all religions are wrong.  However, at the point I started to move from agnostic to atheist I suddenly became very afraid of hell, you cannot help but think "what if I am wrong?".

    The fear of hell might not be enough to make people believe in Allah, but it is certainly enough to prevent many people from ceasing to believe in Allah....just in case.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #78 - May 18, 2010, 01:20 PM
    Quote from: Aziz on May 18, 2010, 01:10 PM
    Me get no love from Yunus: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10331.msg268364#msg268364
     Cry


    Good question, Aziz  Afro

    Quote from: Aziz on May 17, 2010, 08:48 PM
    So, if there had to be verses/commandments addressing a specific issue at that time, why didn't Allah leave them out from the final edition of the Qur'an? Why do we have to use our own faulty brains in order to figure out what Allah really meant to say in his perfect (yet confusing) word? Why isn't there just a book full of nicely ordered, intelligent and wise stories that could inspire anybody, even the non-believers?

  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #79 - May 18, 2010, 01:20 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2010, 01:09 PM
    No onslaught - you are intelligent enough to see the problems in your argument.

    I'm sure you have seen this vid - but I'll post it anyway since it is on topic:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz3dyvqDSdE


    I already stated that in my opinion Kufr does not mean disbelief. It means covering the truth. To cover the truth you must know the truth. The only people that could have known the truth were the people who were present at the time of the Prophet when the Qur'an was revealed. Therefore Kufr does not mean disbeleif in general.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #80 - May 18, 2010, 01:22 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on May 18, 2010, 01:18 PM
    The fear of hell might not be enough to make people believe in Allah, but it is certainly enough to prevent many people from ceasing to believe in Allah....just in case.


    I do agree with that - and in fact was about to type something very similar  Smiley
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #81 - May 18, 2010, 01:23 PM
    Abu Yunus - do you think the people at the time, who KNEW Islam was true, but rejected and COVERED it - and therefore KNEW they will be roasted in Hell for eternity - are sane?

    More important do you think roasting their skin off repeatedly for all eternity is a just punishment?
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #82 - May 18, 2010, 01:27 PM
    Aziz,

    ''So, if there had to be verses/commandments addressing a specific issue at that time, why didn't Allah leave them out from the final edition of the Qur'an? Why do we have to use our own faulty brains in order to figure out what Allah really meant to say in his perfect (yet confusing) word? Why isn't there just a book full of nicely ordered, intelligent and wise stories that could inspire anybody, even the non-believers?''

    I don't know, but maybe the Qur'an was mainly meant to be more specifically for the 7th century rather than all time. Maybe the reason Muhammad was the last prophet is because after this humanity would have evolved to the stage where we could use our own God-given souls/intellect to decide what's right/wrong.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #83 - May 18, 2010, 01:29 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 01:20 PM
    I already stated that in my opinion Kufr does not mean disbelief. It means covering the truth. To cover the truth you must know the truth. The only people that could have known the truth were the people who were present at the time of the Prophet when the Qur'an was revealed. Therefore Kufr does not mean disbeleif in general.


    I have seen you argue this point before, and in places I agree it does look that way. How would you interpret 7:101?

    If I knew Islam was true I'd accept it, whether I liked it or not. The idea that someone would KNOW that if they did X they would burn in fire and would still go on to do X makes no sense to me at all.

    As an example:
    There is a large pile of money on the floor outside a shop.
    You know that you can steal it and spend it, and no matter what happens it is your money for life.
    However you also know that there is a security camera and your identity is well known enough to ensure you will eventually be caught.
    You also know that the state punishment is for your entire body to be burned in an intense gas fuelled oven for 60 seconds.

    How much money does there need to be in order for you to steal it? 1 million? 100 million? 10 trillion? Or is there no amount of money on Earth that could make you endure that pain?

    You wouldn't take such a massive risk if you KNEW.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #84 - May 18, 2010, 01:29 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2010, 01:23 PM
    Abu Yunus - do you think the people at the time, who KNEW Islam was true, but rejected and COVERED it - and therefore KNEW they will be roasted in Hell for eternity - are sane?

    More important do you think roasting their skin off repeatedly for all eternity is a just punishment?


    I have no idea if they were sane or not. I already stated that I think the punishments in the Quran are metaphorical and that hell is not forever. I don't have time now but i'll start a thread soon arguing why hell as described in Qur'an may not be forever
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #85 - May 18, 2010, 01:30 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 01:27 PM
    Maybe the reason Muhammad was the last prophet is because after this humanity would have evolved to the stage where we could use our own God-given souls/intellect to decide what's right/wrong.


    Do the apostasy wars not suggest otherwise?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #86 - May 18, 2010, 01:34 PM
    Last Prophet according to whom? There were prohets during Muhammads life and several right after his death and many hundreds of prophets after his death.

    But let me guess, because the Quran and Hadith says he is the last prophet then he is the last prophet. It's true because it says its true.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #87 - May 18, 2010, 01:34 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 01:27 PM
    I don't know, but maybe the Qur'an was mainly meant to be more specifically for the 7th century rather than all time. Maybe the reason Muhammad was the last prophet is because after this humanity would have evolved to the stage where we could use our own God-given souls/intellect to decide what's right/wrong.

    Well 4:34 & the prophet owning slaves might show that it was not even appropriate for the 7th century either.  

    And if it can be said that its not perfect for then or even now, might you consider  that its man-made?  Just like Koresh, and all the 1000s of others before & after the prophet?
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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #88 - May 18, 2010, 01:35 PM
    The Last Prophet:



    Just change boy to a 9 year old girl.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #89 - May 18, 2010, 01:40 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 01:29 PM
    I have no idea if they were sane or not. I already stated that I think the punishments in the Quran are metaphorical and that hell is not forever. I don't have time now but i'll start a thread soon arguing why hell as described in Qur'an may not be forever


    Even if it is metaphorical. Even if it is not forever.

    It MUST mean unbearable pain and suffering for a VERY long time.

    Do you think they deserve that Abu Yunus? Is that justice? What is it for?

    btw what do you think Khalideena  and Abadan (Forever/Eternity) mean? What does God mean when he says "they will not get out of it"?

    How long will the merciful God metaphorically torture them - a thousand years? A million? A Billion?

    And please explain how metaphoric torture is less painful?

    If I say I am going to make you suffer such pain as can be likened in your understanding to having your skin roasted off repeatedly - how does that make it better.

    When I was a Muslim I always believed - hell was a metaphor. I always quoted the hadith about the next life being something 'the eye has never seen nor the mind comprehended'

    But in the end I had to accept that this made no difference at all! Metaphor means it is describing something similar in terms you understand.

    Metaphor doesn't mean I say "I'm going to skewer your eyes out with red hot pokers" - when I really mean "Sit in the corner for an hour and think about what you've done!"
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