Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time

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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #150 - May 18, 2010, 06:33 PM

You're on an open forum, Debunker. This is not an exclusive thread and you have no right to order anyone not to respond to your posts, nor to insult them if they do. As I've already told you, if you don't want to interact with him use the ignore function.

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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #151 - May 18, 2010, 06:36 PM

Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:31 PM
Ok, could you be "less" politically correct, Hassan and answer this question:

What if you are disgusted by someone, for whatever reason, and asked them, no, begged them many times not to address you and yet they keep doing it regardless, wouldn't you consider this as an insult of no small measure?

yes, what I said was harsh, but that's exactly why I can't stand this dude!

Perhaps, yes, but I wouldn't insult someone in that way.
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #152 - May 18, 2010, 06:40 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2010, 06:20 PM
If God really did create an eternal Hell, I would demand to be sent there.

He wants my willing submission? I will use the only thing I have to spite him - my free will.

He can take that away of course - but as long as I have it - I will never give it willingly to him.

He can tell himself he's great - but he will know I was there spitting in his eye.

Hassan, you've gone crazy in your old age

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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #153 - May 18, 2010, 06:42 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2010, 06:20 PM
If God really did create an eternal Hell, I would demand to be sent there.

Utterly honest Hassan?? By the way, SkyNightBlaze used to say something similar to Bahgat back at FFI... honest to God.

Quote
He wants my willing submission? I will use the only thing I have to spite him - my free will.

Spite "Him"? I thought we've already been over this, but if He's really easily offended by us, humans, he wouldn't have let us last so long with so many of us cursing Him day and night (assuming He existed like you said).

Quote
He can take that away of course - but as long as I have it - I will never give it willingly to him.

Like I said He doesn't care... He chose to give it to you and doesn't care how you use it (assuming, again, that the Quranic God exists as you said). May I remind you of verses like An'am:104, Fussilat:46 and Jathia:15?

Quote
He can tell himself he's great - but he will know I was there spitting in his eye.

See the above verses (again, assuming the Quranic God exists.)

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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #154 - May 18, 2010, 06:47 PM

Quote from: Hassan on May 18, 2010, 06:36 PM
Perhaps, yes, but I wouldn't insult someone in that way.

what? there was no profanity involved...

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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #155 - May 18, 2010, 06:52 PM

Debunker -

You believe in eternal hell, or some form of hell, right? You also believe that God is omniscient, he must have known, before he created someone, that they would end up in hell, right? There are an infinite number of people he can create, why didn't he just create those people who he knew would do good? I asked another Muslim this last night, the response I got was (predictably) that good only has meaning because there exists evil. I told her that she was essentially saying "People are gonna burn in hell only so I can justify having eternal bliss?" Do you agree with her? If not, then why did God create people he knew were going to make choices that would result in eternal damnation, why did he give them ability to feel horrendous pain, when he knew what he would do to them? In the end, no matter what, he created those people just so he can torture them for eternity.

BTW, I'm still interested in knowing whether you believe Allah is omnibenevolent.
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #156 - May 18, 2010, 06:53 PM

Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:42 PM
Utterly honest Hassan?? By the way, SkyNightBlaze used to say something similar to Bahgat back at FFI... honest to God.

Honestly? As I stand here, yes. If I was actually faced with eternal torture or kissing his arse - that maybe a different story. I'm sure I would not have that much courage and would be arse kissing.

But my point was rhetorical - in other words such a God will never have my genuine submission, respect or love - but only my contempt.

Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:42 PM
Like I said He doesn't care...

If this God existed I have no doubt he doesn't - but my genuine and free will is all I have - and so that is all I can refuse to give him. I don't want a life of a slave to a cruel tyrant - he can force me to do what he wants of course - but he will not have it willingly. Whether he cares or not is not in my power.
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #157 - May 18, 2010, 06:54 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 06:33 PM
Yes, i could love a conscious being that subjects people to mental torment for the sake of reform and justice for evil crimes they commited, even for a short period of time.

This incredibly powerful god cannot come up with a method of 'reform' without mental torment? Or can he, in which case he must be a sadist.

BTW, all forms of torment are mental. The pain is all in your head.
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #158 - May 18, 2010, 06:56 PM

Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:47 PM
what? there was no profanity involved...

No, but it was very hurtful, nevertheless.
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #159 - May 18, 2010, 06:58 PM

@ prince

regarding your first question, I answred it so many times over and over here and at FFI.

As for your second question, the answer is yes. I know there will be a follow-up question, and chances are I already answered it somewhere here or at FFI.

How about we concentrate on Abu's crisis, instead? The guy doesn't know yet he cannot accept the Quranic God, so why don't we all help him see this truth? Let's give him a helping hand, shall we?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #160 - May 18, 2010, 07:02 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 06:13 PM
i wouldn't read too much into it. but i am in general getting the feeling that there are things that I will never understand in this lifetime.

Dont be so hard on yourself. Its possible, but you will need to give the Quran the elbow first But you can keep your belief in God as a deist or pantheist

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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #161 - May 18, 2010, 07:02 PM

Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 06:31 PM
What if you are disgusted by someone, for whatever reason, and asked them, no, begged them many times not to address you and yet they keep doing it regardless, wouldn't you consider this as an insult of no small measure?

Choice A: Be civil
Choice B: Click "Ignore user"

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #162 - May 18, 2010, 07:03 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on May 18, 2010, 06:54 PM
This incredibly powerful god cannot come up with a method of 'reform' without mental torment? Or can he, in which case he must be a sadist.

BTW, all forms of torment are mental. The pain is all in your head.

in addition to it being 'reform' the purpose is also justice - hence this may necessitate some form of mental torment for a period of time which also serves for reformation

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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #163 - May 18, 2010, 07:03 PM

lol but why would you do that Debunker? You think this is what we do here? Why would you want to participate in something like that? You believe in hell, you want him to go to hell?
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #164 - May 18, 2010, 07:03 PM

@ Hassan

Quote
Whether he cares or not is not in my power.

and that's the point.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #165 - May 18, 2010, 07:05 PM

@ debunker

Why, why, why, why, do you ALWAYS answer my questions with "I've answered that too many times". If you don't have an answer, just say so, don't make up some nonsense about how you do but can't be bothered to say yes or no.
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #166 - May 18, 2010, 07:05 PM

Debunker so its not about really believing in God because He doesnt care, I mean it doesnt matter if I dont believe or not for him. But you do it ultimately to save your ass? Because its a weird argument to make that you love him? How can you love somebody that doesnt care about you?
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #167 - May 18, 2010, 07:06 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on May 18, 2010, 07:03 PM
lol but why would you do that Debunker? You think this is what we do here? Why would you want to participate in something like that? You believe in hell, you want him to go to hell?

I'm not sure if you're addressing two topics at the same time... but whether God throws *me* in Hell or not, I have no right to object, let alone object for the faith of others.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #168 - May 18, 2010, 07:06 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on May 18, 2010, 07:05 PM
@ debunker

Why, why, why, why, do you ALWAYS answer my questions with "I've answered that too many times". If you don't have an answer, just say so, don't make up some nonsense about how you do but can't be bothered to say yes or no.

I have no answer.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #169 - May 18, 2010, 07:07 PM

Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 07:06 PM
I'm not sure if you're addressing two topics at the same time... but whether God throws *me* in Hell or not, I have no right to object, let alone object for the faith of others.

I wrote that in response to your "lets help Abu Yunus" message. so its two different topics.
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #170 - May 18, 2010, 07:08 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 06:33 PM
Yes, i could love a conscious being that subjects people to mental torment for the sake of reform and justice for evil crimes they commited, even for a short period of time.

You could love someone that tortured an equivalent to burning people in fire? That's pretty fucked up.

I once watched a prison documentary. A guy was locked up for life because he had killed someone. As part of his sentence the mother of the deceased was permitted to come and talk to him. She sat and showed him photos, talked about what kind of a person he was, and generally humanised the victim to his killer. Then she struck, she said "I forgave you a long time ago". The killer fell apart, he burst into tears.

If that woman can think of a way of touching someone's heart without being the equivalent of "burning off your skin with fire" then it's entirely possible the creator of the universe can too.

PS: Debunker accused you of being in the atheist club. Apostatising from any religion doesn't make you an atheist, you can still believe in god, it's just admitting to yourself that you have no idea what such a god might want.

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http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #171 - May 18, 2010, 07:08 PM

aby

You believe in eternal hell, or some form of hell, right? You also believe that God is omniscient, he must have known, before he created someone, that they would end up in hell, right? There are an infinite number of people he can create, why didn't he just create those people who he knew would do good? I asked another Muslim this last night, the response I got was (predictably) that good only has meaning because there exists evil. I told her that she was essentially saying "People are gonna burn in hell only so I can justify having eternal bliss?" Do you agree with her? If not, then why did God create people he knew were going to make choices that would result in eternal damnation, why did he give them ability to feel horrendous pain, when he knew what he would do to them? In the end, no matter what, he created those people just so he can torture them for eternity.

BTW, I'm still interested in knowing whether you believe Allah is omnibenevolent. < from prince spinoza via me
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #172 - May 18, 2010, 07:08 PM

OK, I'm outta this thread for a while - I am less interested in convincing people I'm right and they are wrong - than I am with having a friendly chat with ppl I consider my friends and as this thread is getting a bit to confrontational (I don''t like confrontation) I;m off for a while till things cool down.

I think I'll do a bit of translating lol
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #173 - May 18, 2010, 07:09 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on May 18, 2010, 07:05 PM
Debunker so its not about really believing in God because He doesnt care, I mean it doesnt matter if I dont believe or not for him. But you do it ultimately to save your ass? Because its a weird argument to make that you love him? How can you love somebody that doesnt care about you?

Religious believers in this case are akin to the Nazi soldiers who forced countless "undesirables" into the gas chambers to kill them merely in order to save their own asses.

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #174 - May 18, 2010, 07:10 PM

i just would like to make one thing clear - i still am a Muslim, and as far as i can tell will always be

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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #175 - May 18, 2010, 07:11 PM

Quote from: debunker on May 18, 2010, 07:06 PM
I have no answer.

That wasn't so hard, was it?
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #176 - May 18, 2010, 07:13 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 07:03 PM
in addition to it being 'reform' the purpose is also justice - hence this may necessitate some form of mental torment for a period of time which also serves for reformation

I'd like to get an idea of what you consider a crime worthy of 'reformation', and the extent of the punishment applied. Thanks.
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #177 - May 18, 2010, 07:13 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on May 18, 2010, 07:05 PM
Debunker so its not about really believing in God because He doesnt care, I mean it doesnt matter if I dont believe or not for him. But you do it ultimately to save your ass? Because its a weird argument to make that you love him? How can you love somebody that doesnt care about you?

I already addressed this here:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10331.msg268848#msg268848

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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #178 - May 18, 2010, 07:14 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on May 18, 2010, 07:10 PM
i just would like to make one thing clear - i still am a Muslim, and as far as i can tell will always be

Please answer the question posed to debunker but i directed to you.
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Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
Reply #179 - May 18, 2010, 07:14 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on May 18, 2010, 07:11 PM
That wasn't so hard, was it?

no it wasn't, thanks for teaching me.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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