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 Topic: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time

 (Read 37458 times)
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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #210 - May 18, 2010, 08:59 PM

    Fine so basicly since the man was a slave to his god he's saved?

    No.

     
    Quote
    And the actions he did (whatever action) doesn't matter at all?

    Yes, they do matter.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #211 - May 18, 2010, 09:08 PM

    Meglomaniacal streak perhaps?


    No, no... it's nothing like that at all... I know my small place in this world very well... and I'm content with it, as long as I'm healthy and young (although I losing my youth, obviously, and I gotta watch myself rot slowly to death, either that or simply die young... I think I prefer the first option, assuming I have any control at all over the matter).

    Quote
    Out of interest, do you have arranged marriages in Saudi?  Just wondering whether desi arranged marriage is something that came out of Islam, or from its endemic hindu culture?


    I thought you already knew that arranged marriages is a trait of many Eastern cultures, Islamic or non... as for Saudi, it depens on the family, but no matter how liberal, the groom to be can never date his fiancee... the best he can do is repeatedly visit her in her home in the presence of her family members.

    Have you seen Godfather? When Michael was betroathed to his Sicilian financee? They were always surrounded with her family members... that's what the most liberal Saudi families can accept.

    But I think I haven't answered your question, yet... a man/girl can accept/reject the marriage, again, depending on the family.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #212 - May 18, 2010, 09:16 PM

    i just would like to make one thing clear - i still am a Muslim, and as far as i can tell will always be


    As long as you are able to pretend Islam is something it is not I am sure you will be Smiley

    Whenever you find something you feel "you just aren't destined to understand in this lifetime" just put it on the shelf and don't think about it. One day that shelf is going to get pretty heavy and it might just collapse under the weight.

    Remember the alternative answer to all your questions : Because Muhammad made it all up.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #213 - May 18, 2010, 09:30 PM

    I'm still freaked out by the most obvious question of them all, proof.  

    If he wants us to believe, then why not give us some.  If he is so troubled about showing his presence, then why not give Muhammed some proof. A few miracles or even a few unquestionable predictions in the quran. Failing that why not give us proof of heaven & hell, or even the spirit or the devil/angels at least.

    Curiously, there seems to be a broad lack of evidence of anything tangible.  

    P.S We are now even getting evidence to the contrary, with all the debunking of science in the Bible & Quran not to mention Evolution.

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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #214 - May 18, 2010, 09:34 PM

    But I think I haven't answered your question, yet... a man/girl can accept/reject the marriage, again, depending on the family.

    No, you answered it - it pretty much the same as desi families, where forced arranged marriages are rare too.

    So what makes you accept an arranged marriage - do you really like the girl?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #215 - May 18, 2010, 09:40 PM

    Have you seen Godfather? When Michael was betroathed to his Sicilian financee? They were always surrounded with her family members... that's what the most liberal Saudi families can accept.


    Poor Appolonia.

    Died in a bomb meant for her husband  Cry



    Anyway.....back on topic. Yeah, I wish Allah would show some proof of himself or something.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #216 - May 18, 2010, 09:45 PM

    No, you answered it - it pretty much the same as desi families, where forced arranged marriages are rare too.

    So what makes you accept an arranged marriage - do you really like the girl?


    what do you mean? I saw 3 girls so far, 2 of them rejected me (one after a month of long conversations over the phone... she literally told me I'm unbearable! the other one rejected me after they learned my family was not "rich" enough). The third one was an angel and all but I really didn't feel confortable so no marriage... now, this one, the 4th one, my mom says is the one! I'll see her inshallah after I'm back.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #217 - May 18, 2010, 09:56 PM

    Best of luck - nothing wrong with arranged marriages, as long as you can spend some time getting to know them first.

    When you have kids will you continue the tradition?  Do you know where this tradition comes from, afaik it has nothing to do with Islam as he chose his own brides and so did his daughter?

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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #218 - May 18, 2010, 10:03 PM

    Quote
    When you have kids will you continue the tradition?  Do you know where this tradition comes from, afaik it has nothing to do with Islam as he chose his own brides and so did his daughter?


    who knows 20 years or so later, what would be the social norm (assuming I'd still be living in Saudi, and the house of cards didn't crumble yet)... but to answer your question, I'd stick to the social norm of my family as long as Saudi Arabia, as a country, still exists and I'm living in it.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #219 - May 18, 2010, 10:08 PM

    and arranged marriages, are they recommended in Islam?

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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #220 - May 18, 2010, 10:24 PM

    Quote
    and arranged marriages, are they recommended in Islam?


    recommended? There's no Islamic text, I'm aware of, that says that... but people might think that pleasing one's parents, even when it comes to marriage, is a good thing.

    Anyway, like I probably failed to explain, these marriages are arranged in Saudi, because the society is closed and the sexes don't mix, so how would a man have access to potential brides or a woman to potential grooms? The families have to work to arrange the marriage but ultimately, the girl and the man are the ones who decide...

    of course, there are the few the cases where Saudi men marry their (yes Saudi) girlfriends, but that's very rare. On the other hand, there are families which force the marriage on both the man and the girl without seeing each other except after the wedding... now that's a nightmare, both for the man and the girl.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #221 - May 18, 2010, 10:31 PM

    Similar thing happens in desi weddings.  The interesting thing is the the movie industry always plays stories of tragic love stories where the parents intervened in a love marriage, and this always gets the sympathies of the audience.  But irl the story is still played out, although this is becoming rarer now. 

    In fact the educated new generation, particualrly my distant relatives, all have an option now, whether they want arranged or whether they want to find their own.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #222 - May 18, 2010, 10:34 PM

    this forum is crazy


    you can say that again - honestly it's insane sometimes

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #223 - May 18, 2010, 10:37 PM

    Sleep tight AbuY Wink  And dont forget to perform you Isha prayers, you frikkin Kaffir  Afro

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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #224 - May 18, 2010, 10:39 PM

    Islame smells funny

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #225 - May 18, 2010, 10:49 PM

    Thats cos I stopped doing wudu and cleaning in between my toes. 

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #226 - May 18, 2010, 10:52 PM

    Similar thing happens in desi weddings.  The interesting thing is the the movie industry always plays stories of tragic love stories where the parents intervened in a love marriage, and this always gets the sympathies of the audience.  But irl the story is still played out, although this is becoming rarer now.  

    In fact the educated new generation, particualrly my distant relatives, all have an option now, whether they want arranged or whether they want to find their own.


    I'm also desi (Indian) and for those of our family members that live abroad like me in USA, Canada, UK or whatever, we have the choice of getting an arranged marriage or finding our spouse by ourselves provided they are also desi and Hindu (although one cousin plans to marry a South American girl while another cousin is dating a white Russian Hindu). With my family members that still live in India, they still have to get an arranged marriage although they are allowed to meet the people and decide which person they want.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #227 - May 18, 2010, 10:53 PM

    or finding our spouse by ourselves provided they are also desi and Hindu

    is sikh not ok?

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  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #228 - May 18, 2010, 11:02 PM

    is sikh not ok?


    Well, it depends. My parents are religious Gujarati Hindus and vegetarian while most Sikhs are Punjabi and non-vegetarian, although there are some sects that are vegetarian. They believe that the differences will be too great for a good marriage. However, they have a good opinion of Sikh people. I know my family would eventually accept it if I wanted to marry a desi Hindu, Sikh, Jain, or Buddhist as they are all Indian traditions and are similar. They wouldn't like it however if I wanted to marry a Muslim or Christian girl.
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #229 - May 19, 2010, 07:46 AM

    The prophet Muhammad thought it would be for all time, and I can understand why. Remember, he lived in the 7th century. He thought his era was the future, the "now". He thought this is as advanced and civilized as humans can get. He could never have imagined the world that we live in today, just like we cannot imagine what the Earth would be like a thousand years from now.

    I know someday you'll have a beautiful life, I know you'll be a star
    In somebody else's sky, but why, why, why
    Can't it be, can't it be mine

    https://twitter.com/AlharbiMoe
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #230 - May 19, 2010, 08:21 AM

    I'm still freaked out by the most obvious question of them all, proof.  


    Exactly.  If Allah exists (which he doesn't, he died when Muhammad's brain died) and he wants me to do certain things (like not eat pigs) then he has to make it clear to me. He needs to make it clear because there are many different religions claiming that god wants me to do something else entirely, so how can anyone reasonably be expected to know what to do with so many conflicting messages?

    Saying "Because X is the truth" is crap, you can put the name of any religion in the place of X in that argument!

    Giving miracle to Muhammad would not have been good enough for me, because people could have made them up (as they have in ahadith.)

    All God needed to do was to make one of the mountains on Earth indestructible, and write what he wanted on the side of it. Even if that didn't prove the existence of Allah to everyone, it WOULD prove conclusively to everyone that there is a conscious entity far more powerful than humans, and it wants us to live a certain way.

    There is only one reason that no religion on Earth provides proof, and that is because no human on Earth can defy the laws of physics.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #231 - May 19, 2010, 09:11 AM

    The prophet Muhammad thought it would be for all time, and I can understand why. Remember, he lived in the 7th century. He thought his era was the future, the "now". He thought this is as advanced and civilized as humans can get. He could never have imagined the world that we live in today, just like we cannot imagine what the Earth would be like a thousand years from now.


    Like many prophets, seers and soothsayers, he thought the end of the world was just around the corner.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PwtQnmt7vE
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #232 - May 19, 2010, 06:53 PM

    Quote
    Fine so basicly since the man was a slave to his god he's saved?

    No.

    Quote
    And the actions he did (whatever action) doesn't matter at all?

     Yes, they do matter.


    Say what?

    You said:

    Quote
    The answer is no. Such a man should not be punished, nor was a punishment promised for such men...


    To this:

    Quote
    a question on the matter of hell, heaven and justice. the question is wether a man commiting terrible acts, he sincerely thought he should do to follow god's commands (fx was brought up with these rules), should be rewarded, forgiven or punished? Is it justice to punish a man who from the bottom of his heart thought he was doing what god wanted him to do? Is it justice to let the man get away with doing these acts?


    Does these terrible actions count or not? Maybe I have give some examples. A man thinks from the bottom of his heart that he is doing his god's will by blowing himself up with a group of soldiers (thought to be the enemy of god) or civilians (thought to be the enemy of god or accepted collateral damage in the cause of god).
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #233 - May 19, 2010, 08:26 PM

    Quote
    Does these terrible actions count or not? Maybe I have give some examples. A man thinks from the bottom of his heart that he is doing his god's will by blowing himself up with a group of soldiers (thought to be the enemy of god) or civilians (thought to be the enemy of god or accepted collateral damage in the cause of god).


    Oh, in that case, he will be punished, but not for eternity.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #234 - May 19, 2010, 08:31 PM

    What if a Muslim helped an old lady and a Non-Muslim helped an old lady too. Would they both go to heaven or just the Muslim. (these acts being reminiscent of their whole character - good, well-meaning and kind)
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #235 - May 19, 2010, 08:57 PM

    Oh, in that case, he will be punished, but not for eternity.


    What do you have to do to be punished for eternity?
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #236 - May 20, 2010, 05:05 AM

    who said the torment was equivalent to burning people in fire - i said it perhaps is a type of mental torment that we may not fully be able to understand.


    If its not equivalent to burning people in hell, then what is the point of the (supposed) metaphor? Metaphors are used to make comparisons between equivalent things so that people will be able to understand the similiarities, so either its pretty simple to understand or Allah is not very good at figures of speech.

    "We were married by a Reform rabbi in Long Island. A very Reform rabbi. A Nazi."-- Woody Allen
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #237 - May 20, 2010, 06:19 PM

    Oh, in that case, he will be punished, but not for eternity.


    Sweet. So basicly any action can be partly accepted (ie. forgiven after a little punishment; but what on earth does that mean when eternal bliss is still in the horisont) if it's thought to be in accordance with the will of the god? So any loony religious crackhead killing in the name of god is guaranteed eternal bliss after a (relativily (but what the heck the bliss is eternal)) little time with burnt flesh? Or do you mean that they are destroyed?
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #238 - May 20, 2010, 07:01 PM

    I personally think those people, blowing themselves and others, are actually worshipping themselves... in fact, a lot of Muslims worship themselves... but anyway, the answer to your very specific question, a few posts back, stays the same.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Was Qur'an really meant to be for all-time
     Reply #239 - May 20, 2010, 07:03 PM

    What do you have to do to be punished for eternity?


    Read the whole conversation here:
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=8392.0

    Or, if you prefer: I have no answer.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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