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 Topic: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate

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  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #150 - June 04, 2010, 01:48 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 01:45 PM
    Abu. Do you believe in a Creator God or a Personal God?

    popcorn
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  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #151 - June 04, 2010, 01:49 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 01:42 PM
    ROFL

    And how was I wrong?


    If we take the two quotes together:

    "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists," he replied, "not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."

    ''It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropomorphic concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near to those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order and harmony which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem — the most important of all human problems.''


    It is apparent that he liked some aspects of Spinozas God (mainly that of a non-personal God) but that in the end he had his own personal view about God. In general rather than looking at one single quote it's much better to look at multiple quotes of his together to understand better what his veiws were.



    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #152 - June 04, 2010, 01:50 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 01:44 PM
    In addition we shouldn't forget the context in which he said it:


    I don't see how the context alters the meaning of the word.  He is saying he gets a religions (kind of) feeling which has nothing to do with deities/supernatural/spiritual.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #153 - June 04, 2010, 01:50 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 01:45 PM
    Abu. Do you believe in a Creator God or a Personal God?

    Is Allah a Personal God?




    I believe in both of course. Allah is of course both a personal God as well as a creator.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #154 - June 04, 2010, 02:00 PM
    ...i'm obviously not taking the veiws i have about Einstein because it supports my position in any way - i give myself more credit than that. but i think it's obvious he beleived in some form of creator God hence my arguments.
    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #155 - June 04, 2010, 02:53 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 02:00 PM
    ...i'm obviously not taking the veiws i have about Einstein because it supports my position in any way - i give myself more credit than that. but i think it's obvious he beleived in some form of creator God hence my arguments.


    I think the only obvious thing about AE was that his views were not made obvious, otherwise we'd agree.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #156 - June 04, 2010, 05:29 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 01:50 PM
    I believe in both of course. Allah is of course both a personal God as well as a creator.




    I want to believe in this God of yours. Tell me more.

    If I talk to this God will I get a response?

    Would your life be different without this God?

    Where is this God?

    Do I have to accept in my heart? How do I know that it's true? I've held many things in my heart, many of them were false. I acted on some, it was disastrous.

    If I was a doctor can I also act on my heart? Or as an structural engineer?

    Help me Smiley

    Maybe the position of a Deist is not crazy. But religion is a no for me. Help me outside religion.

    Should I watch William Lane Craig? But I would also like to hear from you.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #157 - June 04, 2010, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 05:29 PM
    Should I watch William Lane Craig?


    Only if you want to listen to the biggest pile of steaming bull shit the likes of which has never been heard from anyone before.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #158 - June 04, 2010, 05:59 PM
    ROFL

    I was afraid of that.

    I "fear" atheism (et al)  has the best argument simply because the positive evidence is not there. But why are there so many theists and deists? I know, I know, logical fallacy but wtf is going on?

    I just answered my own question, one only needs to look at communist countries and Scandinavian countries, or other secular countries to notice the effect "milieu" has on people. In the secular countries the Christians are usually very reformed, evolution not a problem, gay marriage in church not a problem, female priests not a problem. Yet they still believe which can be down to other factors as well.

    Crap, I never thought I'd be an atheist. I'm still fighting it to be honest. But on the other hand I would fight whatever opposite side there is out there, and religion will get the most scrutiny because the impact and influence Islam had on my life.

    In fact fuck religion. I'm done. Nobody needs to tell me shit, I can figure things out on my own. If not me, then others smarter than me. But I am done with religion. I don't want your fairy tales and your snake oil merchants.

    Fuck new age occultism and mysticism. Fuck the supernatural and the unicorn it came riding in on.

    And I guess God ultimately falls under that concept.

    There might be a God or something but how can I tell? The proof of it is non-existing as far as I know and as far as I can process. I mean skip the part about God existing, people worship this being and I wonder if I worship the milky way, will it not have the same effect? I will tell myself no and convince myself that this God makes a difference in my life. But when looking at the evidence. Most of it can be explained, some of it is coincidental and some we can't explain. But that gap is becoming smaller and smaller for every single beautiful scientific day.

    Science is that light in the dark. That never-ending flame. If it goes out, we go out with it. And that's the honest truth.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #159 - June 04, 2010, 06:10 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 05:59 PM
    Science is that light in the dark. That never-ending flame. If it goes out, we go out with it. And that's the honest truth.


    You should submit that in the "Bring forth a sura like it" competition Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #160 - June 04, 2010, 06:11 PM
     Cheesy

    I'm guessing Allah will go *cough* bring TEN more like it Grin
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #161 - June 04, 2010, 06:51 PM
    I completely agree with Rationaliza. Einstein's use of 'created the universe' was metaphoric. When he said he didn't want to be labelled an atheist, he was talking about those he called 'fanatical atheists'. Atheist who 'are still feeling the weights of religion's chains' and therefore 'cannot hear the music of the spheres'. In any case, he didn't claim to know what his own beliefs were. He said he wasn't preoccupied with those questions, he was 'satisfied with the mystery of the eternity of life'. So yeah, it may be a little presumptuous to claim Einstein was an atheist, but it's equally so to claim he believed in an intelligent being.

    And yeah, his beliefs seem to be very similar to Hawking's.

    "Yes, if by God is meant the embodiment of the laws of the Universe." - Stephen Hawking when asked if he believed in God.

    The mind of god, or as Einstein put it "god's thoughts", is just a metaphor for the laws of nature.

    In that sense it's easy to see why people believe he was a pantheist. And he only said 'I don't think I can call myself a pantheist'. Again, he was, as rationaliza put it, an 'I don't care' sort of guy. Tongue
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #162 - June 04, 2010, 07:28 PM
    Quote from: abuyunus2 on June 04, 2010, 11:24 AM
    well my version of the Abrahamic God is that He lets things evolve - he gave us our morality and let it evolve to its full potential at which point where we no longer need scripture



    I don't get this.

    And I don't get you Abu. You already didn't 'believe' in the ahadith, now you say the qur'an was only meant for a certain time. So effectively what you've said is that Islam is no longer relevant, yet you still call yourself a Muslim? I don't know why you try so hard to persist with the 'Muslim' tag, maybe it's because of family, maybe it's just because you want to save your gooner ass from hell. Tongue In any case, you're not doing any harm or imposing your beliefs on others, so I respect your beliefs, no matter how silly I find them.  Wink
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #163 - June 04, 2010, 07:30 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 06:11 PM
    Cheesy

    I'm guessing Allah will go *cough* bring TEN more like it Grin

     Afro
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  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #164 - June 04, 2010, 07:49 PM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on June 04, 2010, 07:28 PM
    I don't get this.

    And I don't get you Abu. You already didn't 'believe' in the ahadith, now you say the qur'an was only meant for a certain time. So effectively what you've said is that Islam is no longer relevant, yet you still call yourself a Muslim? I don't know why you try so hard to persist with the 'Muslim' tag, maybe it's because of family, maybe it's just because you want to save your gooner ass from hell. Tongue In any case, you're not doing any harm or imposing your beliefs on others, so I respect your beliefs, no matter how silly I find them.  Wink


    I don't.  cool2
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #165 - June 04, 2010, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: BlackDog on June 04, 2010, 07:49 PM
    I don't.  cool2


    How rude of you.





    (I don't either, I just said that to make him feel better. Tongue)
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #166 - June 04, 2010, 07:56 PM
    You're a funny & self-assured guy Prince Spinoza  Afro
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  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #167 - June 04, 2010, 08:10 PM
    I raised the little tyke well.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #168 - June 04, 2010, 11:01 PM
    I have a question on atheism. I hope no one takes offence to my question ( this is not a prelude to an offence question hopefully!)

    For most of my life i have been agnostic, believing there was something out there, not sure what it was. I never thought of myself as an atheist. Simply because i believe that no one knows what happens when you die or can know what happens when you die. If you believe in scientific method, or logic, how can come to a finite conclusion if there is no way of measuring what happens when you die?
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #169 - June 04, 2010, 11:03 PM
    Most of us discount religion as being man-made, but that doesnt make us all atheists. You do realise that dont you?
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  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #170 - June 04, 2010, 11:04 PM
    Quote from: Human Target on June 04, 2010, 11:01 PM
    I have a question on atheism. I hope no one takes offence to my question ( this is not a prelude to an offence question hopefully!)

    For most of my life i have been agnostic, believing there was something out there, not sure what it was. I never thought of myself as an atheist. Simply because i believe that no one knows what happens when you die or can know what happens when you die. If you believe in scientific method, or logic, how can come to a finite conclusion if there is no way of measuring what happens when you die?


    I know what happens to me when I die. I'll rot, and lose the ability to see... and hear... and smel.. and taste.. and feel... and think.... and then I'll just be a load of different compounds and elements again....re-used by the earth.... what else is there?
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #171 - June 04, 2010, 11:19 PM
    you know i just realised than i should have written after you die!

    Islame - I'm not sure i follow. I dont think everyone here is an atheist if thats what you mean. MY question was directed at those who are 100% with their atheist belief
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #172 - June 04, 2010, 11:21 PM
    Quote from: Human Target on June 04, 2010, 11:19 PM
    you know i just realised than i should have written after you die!



    It makes no difference. Without a functioning brain I can't experience any feeling, so nothing can happen to 'me'. It'll just be like how it was before birth. Oblivion.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #173 - June 04, 2010, 11:30 PM
    That makes sense if don't believe in the concept of a soul. So i guess my next question would be as per my original question if you cant disprove the existence of a soul can you really call yourself an atheist?
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #174 - June 04, 2010, 11:37 PM
    Disprove the two angels sitting on your shoulders. Can you really call yourself a non-muslim?
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #175 - June 04, 2010, 11:45 PM
    Quote from: Human Target on June 04, 2010, 11:30 PM
    That makes sense if don't believe in the concept of a soul. So i guess my next question would be as per my original question if you cant disprove the existence of a soul can you really call yourself an atheist?

    what is your definition of a soul?  and in english please. Wink
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #176 - June 04, 2010, 11:47 PM
    Quote from: Human Target on June 04, 2010, 11:30 PM
    That makes sense if don't believe in the concept of a soul. So i guess my next question would be as per my original question if you cant disprove the existence of a soul can you really call yourself an atheist?


    Well if you ever find out how to disprove the existence of something non-physical, let me know.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #177 - June 04, 2010, 11:54 PM
    I have to say i like this forum because it's improving and stimulating my critical thinking!

    I can't disprove there are two angels sitting on my shoulders. but i guess that i can call myself a non Muslim because i'm a Hindu. But i think i understand what you're saying. If you're dependent on disproving what you can't prove, you're stuck with whatever other people beliefs perceptions impose on you. So to Muslims i could be a Muslim to Christians i could be a Christian.

    Maybe i can frame this in another way. Do atheists hope there is no afterlife?
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #178 - June 04, 2010, 11:56 PM
    Quote from: Human Target on June 04, 2010, 11:54 PM
    I have to say i like this forum because it's improving and stimulating my critical thinking!

    I can't disprove there are two angels sitting on my shoulders. but i guess that i can call myself a non Muslim because i'm a Hindu. But i think i understand what you're saying. If you're dependent on disproving what you can't prove, you're stuck with whatever other people beliefs perceptions impose on you. So to Muslims i could be a Muslim to Christians i could be a Christian.

    Maybe i can frame this in another way. Do atheists hope there is no afterlife?


    Define 'life'.
  • Re: Islam or Atheism - The Big Debate
     Reply #179 - June 04, 2010, 11:58 PM
    Quote from: ateapotist on June 04, 2010, 11:45 PM
    what is your definition of a soul?  and in english please. Wink


    i guess it would be the standard definition of  i.e incorporeal or eternal part of a living being, something that contains memories
    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
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