Comments on Debunker and IA debate

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- debunker
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #150 - June 28, 2010, 06:12 PM

Charles, try to look at what I said again without arbirarily blindfolding yourself... the Quran said that Zul Qarnain arrived at a place bordered from the West by a hot spring. Period!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #151 - June 28, 2010, 06:29 PM

Quote
Charles, try to look at what I said again without arbirarily blindfolding yourself... the Quran said that Zul Qarnain arrived at a place bordered from the West by a hot spring. Period!

From whose perspective Allah speaks in the Quran, his own or that of humans?

That is all I am interested to listen from you at the moment.

If he changes his perspective, how do you know which perspective is used when?

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #152 - June 28, 2010, 07:10 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 06:12 PM
Charles, try to look at what I said again without arbirarily blindfolding yourself... the Quran said that Zul Qarnain arrived at a place bordered from the West by a hot spring. Period!

Hassan said it meant the place where the sun sets

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #153 - June 28, 2010, 07:15 PM

and where does the sun set? In the West. So that place where Zul Qarnain arrived to has a hot spring to the West.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #154 - June 28, 2010, 07:37 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 07:15 PM
and where does the sun set? In the West. So that place where Zul Qarnain arrived to has a hot spring to the West.

In this case I am only regurgitating what Hassan said, but I believe he said it was basically "THE place where the sun sets"; you'd have to ask him to confirm it though - it's not something I've looked at yet.

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #155 - June 28, 2010, 08:16 PM

Quote
In this case I am only regurgitating what Hassan said, but I believe he said it was basically "THE place where the sun sets"; you'd have to ask him to confirm it though - it's not something I've looked at yet.

In (Arabic) Tafsir (e.g. Qurtubi), you will find both what I said and what Charles said. So there are two interpretations for this verse, one of them is that it was a reference to a geographical place. (a hot spring in the West). The other one is that the sun was sinking in a hot spring. (I just checked the Tafsir by the way).

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #156 - June 28, 2010, 08:22 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 08:16 PM
In (Arabic) Tafsir (e.g. Qurtubi), you will find both what I said and what Charles said. So there are two interpretations for this verse, one of them is that it was a reference to a geographical place. (a hot spring in the West). The other one is that the sun was sinking in a hot spring. (I just checked the Tafsir by the way).

Just out of curiosity, are you aware of any English translations of the tafsirs of Qurtubi or Tabari? The most I've been able to find is a translation of volume 1 of Qurtubi, but that's it.
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #157 - June 28, 2010, 08:26 PM

Quote
Just out of curiosity, are you aware of any English translations of the tafsirs of Qurtubi or Tabari? The most I've been able to find is a translation of volume 1 of Qurtubi, but that's it.

no.

btw, Ibn Kathir's translation is NOT complete (doesn't include all the ramblings he wrote, and boy are they so many!)

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #158 - June 28, 2010, 08:38 PM

I thought as much. Kinda weird that no-one's had a go at translating them. Maybe If I ever manage to learn Arabic I'll try it myself!

And yeah. There are about 3 translations of Tafsir Ibn Kathir floating around... none of them particularly good from what I understand. They're all edited and abridged. I have the least-abridged one, but it's still edited and the translation doesn't exactly have the best English.
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #159 - June 28, 2010, 08:48 PM

@ Zebedee

Read Ibn Kathir's "brilliant" work regarding this verse:

036.014
When We sent to them two, they rejected both of them, then We strengthened (them) with a third, so they said: Surely we are messengers to you.

The verse is clear on its own... God sent, not one, not two but three messengers to a town and yet the town disbelieved regardless. The verses are discussing the extent of their rejection of the truth.

But Ibn Kathir had to write a very interesting story behind this verse.. read it carefully to understand the implications of the story that stupid idiot included in his book.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #160 - June 28, 2010, 08:52 PM

Quote from: debunker on June 28, 2010, 08:16 PM
In (Arabic) Tafsir (e.g. Qurtubi), you will find both what I said and what Charles said. So there are two interpretations for this verse, one of them is that it was a reference to a geographical place. (a hot spring in the West). The other one is that the sun was sinking in a hot spring. (I just checked the Tafsir by the way).

If I were God, and I am not, I'd know that this would be a matter of dispute in the future and I'd have said "He reached a place by a hot spring just as the Sun disappeared behind the horizon". Factually accurate, indisputable, and not going to confuse the flat-Earthers of the time.

Sure Zakir Naik would be out of a job, but that alone would be worth it

It's funny though how God with omnipotence isn't as careful as I am with hindsight and 1400+ years of technological advancement.....isn't it?

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #161 - June 28, 2010, 09:00 PM

if you read the verses in Arabic, you'd understand it was meant to sound like an epic, very poetic language was used.

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #162 - June 28, 2010, 09:18 PM

skimmed the site. Doesn't look to be worth it.
Use common sense man, that verse is describing the geographic location, and time. If Sun literally set on murky water or any other place on Earth people would've been scorched to death. But hey what can I say.

You don't need a Tafsir for this. A simple common knowledge did the trick for me.
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #163 - June 28, 2010, 09:24 PM

so you're a muslim?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #164 - June 28, 2010, 09:27 PM

Sí, lo soy
- debunker
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #165 - June 28, 2010, 09:27 PM

is that spanish? I don't speak spanish. (what does *lo soy* mean?)

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #166 - June 28, 2010, 09:28 PM

yes, I am
- debunker
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #167 - June 28, 2010, 09:29 PM

lo soy means: I am?!!

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #168 - June 28, 2010, 09:29 PM

Hola. ¿Cómo estás? Me alegro de tener con nosotros los musulmanes. Yo mismo soy un judio. Me convertí a la religión verdadera de Mahoma.
- charlesmartel
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #169 - June 28, 2010, 09:30 PM

Quote
skimmed the site. Doesn't look to be worth it.
Use common sense man, that verse is describing the geographic location, and time. If Sun literally set on murky water or any other place on Earth people would've been scorched to death. But hey what can I say.

But did Allah know this in Muhammad's time?

Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
- debunker
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #170 - June 28, 2010, 09:31 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on June 28, 2010, 09:29 PM
Hola. ¿Cómo estás? Me alegro de tener con nosotros los musulmanes. Yo mismo soy un judio. Me convertí a la religión verdadera de Mahoma.

do you speak spanish, too? But you live in Canada... is it popular in Cannada too?

A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #171 - June 28, 2010, 09:33 PM

It's google man
- King Koopa
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #172 - June 28, 2010, 09:33 PM

My girlfriend is spanish
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #173 - June 28, 2010, 09:34 PM

Quote from: charlesmartel on June 28, 2010, 09:30 PM
But did Allah know this in Muhammad's time?

Know what?
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #174 - June 28, 2010, 09:35 PM

Quote from: NabilRox on June 28, 2010, 09:33 PM
It's google man

En verdad. El que respira en mi espíritu. Señor, usted es un mentiroso. Voy a orar la oración de los infieles

Y vamos a ver quién googles y que gooles no
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #175 - June 28, 2010, 09:37 PM

Quote from: NabilRox on June 28, 2010, 09:34 PM
Know what?

Muhammad es Allah. Y Allah es Muhammad. ¿Por qué es esta parte metafórica? Porque le conviene. Sin embargo, no comienza "entablar una semejanza" se describe como una metáfora. Pero por supuesto que va a decir. Gire a nosotros, a su vez a Jerusalén, al igual que Muhammad hizo una vez.
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #176 - June 28, 2010, 09:38 PM

BlackDog, I am lost now.
- King Koopa
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #177 - June 28, 2010, 09:39 PM

Turn to Jerusalem my friend. Like Muhammad once did.

It is not too late for you to turn to the true religion.

Muhammad and Jesus are false prophets. Believe in the real G*D.

So you don't speak Spanish then? You could have told me that earlier
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #178 - June 28, 2010, 09:42 PM

Oh I see now, but I believe only in God of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmail, Solomon, Jeremiah, Jesus and Muhammad.
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #179 - June 28, 2010, 09:43 PM

Cool. Then we are more like cousins. But still why Muhammad hate Jews so much bro?
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