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 Topic: Comments on Debunker and IA debate

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  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #210 - June 28, 2010, 10:53 PM

    @ DD

    they were good to you because you're a Westerner... West = power... They worship/respect/revere money/power.

    They especialy love it when a white man converts... it's gives them a great ego boost.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #211 - June 28, 2010, 10:55 PM

    Many use Zinji in a non-derogatory manner.

    Yes Abd=slave can mean a person with very dark complexion. Until the 90s it was OK to refer to peanuts imported from Sudan as "slave peanuts". Now it's become non-PC and people refer to it as Sudanese peanuts.



    Wait, are you talking about Iraqis? Iraqis used to call blacks 'Abeed?

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #212 - June 28, 2010, 10:55 PM

    Zinji, please.

    Wassup Abd?

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #213 - June 28, 2010, 10:56 PM

    @ Q

    but nigger literally means black,


    No it doesn't. The word is derived from the Latin word for black

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger#Etymology_and_history

    Quote
    slave means slave! it's so insulting...


    I'm just telling you that, both words being used in a hateful context, most Black people would not consider it a "far worse" term than "nigger". Nigger is an extremely inflammatory word, depending on context. And whether you consider it "far worse" is kinda irrelevant don't you think, since it's not your people being slurred?

    fuck you
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #214 - June 28, 2010, 11:07 PM

    Wait, are you talking about Iraqis?

    Yes


    Iraqis used to call blacks 'Abeed?

    Not all blacks. Only those with very dark complexion.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #215 - June 29, 2010, 06:41 AM

    if you read the verses in Arabic, you'd understand it was meant to sound like an epic, very poetic language was used.


    And what does 18:90 mean?  Where was the place of the rising Sun where people have no protection from the Sun?  In the flat-Earth model there would be a place where the Sun sets and a place where it rises.  Note that this says "THE land of the rising Sun", in reality there is no such place.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #216 - June 29, 2010, 06:55 AM

    And what does 18:90 mean?  Where was the place of the rising Sun where people have no protection from the Sun?  In the flat-Earth model there would be a place where the Sun sets and a place where it rises.  Note that this says "THE land of the rising Sun", in reality there is no such place.


    read the page before this...i posted a tafsir of this verse

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #217 - June 29, 2010, 07:08 AM

    read the page before this...i posted a tafsir of this verse


    I only pay attention to a Tafsir if it disproves my point.  The reasoning is simple; if the Tafsir said "The Earth is more like a ball but XYZ" then it would show that the Quran really did show him that the world is not flat.  If he says "The world is flat so XYZ" then it's too easy for an apologist to say "But he was just an ignorant man, he WOULD say that".

    I don't give any credit to modern Tafsirs because they have the same access to scientific information that I do and are therefore able to retrofit the meaning to fit the facts.  I only pay attention to them if they are quoting historical events or something where there is no opportunity for scientific retrofitting.

    What matters is the verse.  Were is THE land of the rising Sun?  If you add the muddy pool then it makes sense because he walked until the Sun set and he had reached the pool, this could be identifying a specific place.  But the land of the rising Sun... he could have taken 2 steps and eventually the Sun would have risen and he would also have been in the land where the Sun was currently rising, so this says nothing unless the Earth is flat in which case it then gives a location.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #218 - June 29, 2010, 07:14 AM

    k

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #219 - June 29, 2010, 07:18 AM

    My Spanish ain't so hot at all, but this don't sound right to me.


    Hey hombre de arena. ¿Crees que son mejores que yo? Yo soy el hombre pequeño.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #220 - June 29, 2010, 07:20 AM

    It probably worked to a limited extent, at least in certain Arabized countries. My dad would refer to Black Americans as "niggers" but he would never refer to Somalis or other Black people he knew were Muslim using that slur.


    Yeah that's funny that. I think you're dad isn't alone in that context.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #221 - June 29, 2010, 07:20 AM

    k


    Where do you find the sources as in what website.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #222 - June 29, 2010, 07:22 AM

    Where do you find the sources as in what website.


    I downloaded a pdf of tafsir al jalalayn

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #223 - June 29, 2010, 07:26 AM

    He believes the earth was flat? It makes sense, he died 1505. Copernicus the kafir wasn't born until much later
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #224 - June 29, 2010, 07:30 AM

    He believes the earth was flat? It makes sense, he died 1505. Copernicus the kafir wasn't born until much later


    Ptolemy not only knew the Earth was not flat, but also very accurately estimated its circumference.  He died in 168CE Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #225 - June 29, 2010, 07:32 AM

    So how come it wasn't common knowledge?
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #226 - June 29, 2010, 07:32 AM

    He believes the earth was flat? It makes sense, he died 1505. Copernicus the kafir wasn't born until much later


    Yea. To be fair his opinion wasn't exactly mainstream Islamic one at the time even though his tafsir is a respected one. (except by debunker haha)

    Off the top of my head I know that in atleast the 1200's Muslims scholars were in agreement that the earth was a sphere because it was proven mathematically and it doesn't exactly contradict the quran. (while I personally think that the early Muslims believed the earth was flat).

    The theory that the earth was spherical was known among the greeks since BC times. Copernicus just formulated the heliocentric theory that the earth orbits the sun.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #227 - June 29, 2010, 07:34 AM

    Ah OK in the tafsirs before Copernicus is the solar-system a geocentric one then?
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #228 - June 29, 2010, 07:39 AM

    Ah OK in the tafsirs before Copernicus is the solar-system a geocentric one then?


    Yes. In fact the modern "salafi" opinion is that the sun orbits the earth because they actually hold true to what the quran says. This one one of the reasons I decided to leave Islam.

    But I always respected them for saying what the Islamic opinion really is and not giving a fuck what people thought.

    The modern "apologist" types will try and explain away the verses that suggest the sun orbits the earth by saying it is actually orbiting the milky way galaxy. This is the biggest load of bullshit ever. I could make a whole giant post about all this shit.

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #229 - June 29, 2010, 07:39 AM

    Ptolemy not only knew the Earth was not flat, but also very accurately estimated its circumference.  He died in 168CE Smiley


    Eratosthenes knew the Earth wasn't flat and also very accurately estimeated its circumference. He died in 195 BCE.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #230 - June 29, 2010, 07:48 AM

    Yes. In fact the modern "salafi" opinion is that the sun orbits the earth because they actually hold true to what the quran says. This one one of the reasons I decided to leave Islam.

    But I always respected them for saying what the Islamic opinion really is and not giving a fuck what people thought.

    The modern "apologist" types will try and explain away the verses that suggest the sun orbits the earth by saying it is actually orbiting the milky way galaxy. This is the biggest load of bullshit ever. I could make a whole giant post about all this shit.


    Yeah that shit botheres me as well.

    So you have read tafsirs before the 12th century then? What are the most famous tafsirs?

    Ibn Kathir

    al-Jalalayn

    Al-Zamakhshari

    In Shia we have Tabatabari Al-Mizan but thats a modern tafsir
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #231 - June 29, 2010, 08:00 AM

    Of course, Muhammed was ignorant of all of these things... he was even illiterate. Yet, the Quran was sent to the Arabs first and then to all the nations. That's why we see the claims of the message having been already preached to all nations, and the Arabs were the last nation to receive their own prophet.


    Wait a minut. Wasn't Ishmael a prophet and his prophethood was centered in Mecca? And what about Shoaib? Weren't he also a prophet of the Arabs. And you could include Ibrahim aswell. The Arabs had had several prophets according to the Qur'an. Saleh and Hud is also mentioned as Arab prophets.

    Quote
    The Quran claims the end of times is very very near in the eyes of God. In fact, God said the Hour was near since the times of Moses.

    Ta Ha:15
    إِنَّ السَّاعَةَ آتِيَةٌ أَكَادُ أُخْفِيهَا لِتُجْزَى كُلُّ نَفْسٍ بِمَا تَسْعَى

    1500, 2000, or 10,000 years might seem too long for you, but not to God. There's no point of sending more prophets when the end is so close in th eyes of God.


    DB you surprise me with this illogical thinking. So if the Hour was near since the times of Moses why the __ bip___ send prophets after Moses. You know the Hour was close in the eyes of God (sic!). Besides this way of arguing is bollock cause god isn't concerned with time at all, or is he/she/it? The verse you quoted below seems to suggest that god is subjected to time? But can a omnipotent god be that?

    Quote
    Hajj:47
    وَيَسْتَعْجِلُونَكَ بِالْعَذَابِ وَلَن يُخْلِفَ اللَّهُ وَعْدَهُ وَإِنَّ يَوْمًا عِندَ رَبِّكَ كَأَلْفِ سَنَةٍ مِّمَّا تَعُدُّونَ
    http://www.al-shia.org/html/far/quran/quran_a.php?language=ara&lang=txt&translator_far=&sure=22&n_aye1=47&n_aye2=47


    Quote
    Besides, what's point of sending more prophets if God stopped showing miracles, anyway? Suppose God sent another prophet these days but without miracles (like He did with Muhammed), what would be the point? Sending Muhammed, without miracles, means that sending anyone after him (also without miracles) is pointless.


    The point would be keep trying to keep his minions from the eternal hell fire. A god should be concerned somehow, right? Smiley

    And let's assume that the qur'anic god exists and he actually did send prophets after Muhammad and perhaps it was Bab or Jospeh etc. By making people to submit to god wether they call themselves muslims, christians, bahai, mormons, jehovas witnesses he are giving a damn.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #232 - June 29, 2010, 08:17 AM

    Eratosthenes knew the Earth wasn't flat and also very accurately estimeated its circumference. He died in 195 BCE.


    Damn, I knew it looked wrong when the date of death was CE and not BCE!  Oh well, I was in too much of a rush to check, I should take more time in future Smiley

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #233 - June 29, 2010, 08:19 AM

    Yeah that shit botheres me as well.

    So you have read tafsirs before the 12th century then? What are the most famous tafsirs?

    Ibn Kathir

    al-Jalalayn

    Al-Zamakhshari

    In Shia we have Tabatabari Al-Mizan but thats a modern tafsir


    As far as sunni tafsirs go ibn kathir is considered to be the most authentic and a more beginner style tafsir because he stuck with only authentic hadiths to explain things ect..

    Tafsir at tabari was the first tafisr and it uses hadiths that might be weak and also stories from the christians and jews to explain verses ect..

    There is also qurtubi

    There is more but the only ones that I know of that are translated into english are ibn kathir and jalalayn. and ibn kathir is heavily abridged. It almost seems like they try and keep things from non arab speaking muslims

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #234 - June 29, 2010, 08:20 AM

    Yes. In fact the modern "salafi" opinion is that the sun orbits the earth because they actually hold true to what the quran says. This one one of the reasons I decided to leave Islam.

    But I always respected them for saying what the Islamic opinion really is and not giving a fuck what people thought.

    The modern "apologist" types will try and explain away the verses that suggest the sun orbits the earth by saying it is actually orbiting the milky way galaxy. This is the biggest load of bullshit ever. I could make a whole giant post about all this shit.

    PLease do, as this is what at least 4 of our resident Muslims (and any other muslims reading) need to hear..  but start a separate thread on it

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #235 - June 29, 2010, 08:25 AM

    PLease do, as this is what at least 4 of our resident Muslims (and any other muslims reading) need to hear..  but start a separate thread on it


    np man just give me some time to collect everything together

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #236 - June 29, 2010, 08:27 AM

    Damn, I knew it looked wrong when the date of death was CE and not BCE!  Oh well, I was in too much of a rush to check, I should take more time in future Smiley


    No no, you where spot on with the date and person (Ptolemy). But Eratosthenes just did it before him.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #237 - June 29, 2010, 08:27 AM

    As far as sunni tafsirs go ibn kathir is considered to be the most authentic and a more beginner style tafsir because he stuck with only authentic hadiths to explain things ect..

    Tafsir at tabari was the first tafisr and it uses hadiths that might be weak and also stories from the christians and jews to explain verses ect..

    There is also qurtubi

    There is more but the only ones that I know of that are translated into english are ibn kathir and jalalayn. and ibn kathir is heavily abridged. It almost seems like they try and keep things from non arab speaking muslims


    Exactly. You would have to buy the book. On the net it's abridged.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #238 - June 29, 2010, 08:30 AM

    Exactly. You would have to buy the book. On the net it's abridged.


    Nah like the english translation itself is abridged. There is a pdf copy of all ten volumes of the english ibn kathir book online. But the arabic version has stuff in it that has been omitted from the english one

    I'm an asshat.
  • Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
     Reply #239 - June 29, 2010, 08:32 AM

    No no, you where spot on with the date and person (Ptolemy). But Eratosthenes just did it before him.


    It was Eratosthenes I was thinking of, it's just that I usually only remember the year of his death.  Oh well, the point is that humans back then were working out fantastic scientific information such as this, and today people believe the Quran is a miracle because it's got some nice poetry in it?  Wow.

    np man just give me some time to collect everything together


    I look forward to seeing it so I can see what I missed in my video Smiley


    Nah like the english translation itself is abridged. There is a pdf copy of all ten volumes of the english ibn kathir book online. But the arabic version has stuff in it that has been omitted from the english one


    So there's no full English version, not even books?

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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