@ DD
I shouldn't be here at the time being, but I couldn't help but take a peek and I saw your comments and Soren's.
I know you've just been banned (but I hope you'd still come back after you cool down.. you tend to take things a bit too personally) but I still want to comment on a few things.
Off the top of my head I know that in atleast the 1200's Muslims scholars were in agreement that the earth was a sphere because it was proven mathematically and it doesn't exactly contradict the quran.
Ok, so you believe that the Earth being a sphere doesn't exactly contradict the Quran.
(while I personally think that the early Muslims believed the earth was flat).
I believe Muhammed, and all the prophets believed the Earth to be flat, so what?
Yes. In fact the modern "salafi" opinion is that the sun orbits the earth because they actually hold true to what the quran says. This one one of the reasons I decided to leave Islam.
You just said above there's nothing in the Quran that contradicts the Earth being flat and now this? And who said modern Salafis still insist that the sun orbits the Earth? I hope you're not referring to Ibn Baz, but in any case, modern salafis do NOT believe the sun orbits the Earth.
But I always respected them for saying what the Islamic opinion really is and not giving a fuck what people thought.
Yeah, you said that in your intro thread and I thought to myself those must be some nearly illiterate dawagandists, but then you clarified in one of your posts that these were students/grad students/doctors, so I wonder how could they believe these things when their Salafi Sheikhs, back in Saudi don't believe it.
The modern "apologist" types will try and explain away the verses that suggest the sun orbits the earth by saying it is actually orbiting the milky way galaxy. This is the biggest load of bullshit ever. I could make a whole giant post about all this shit.
The Quran didn't say the sun orbits the Earth, nor did it say it's orbiting the galaxy! Let me copy/paste from older posts of mine:
The Quran was constantly reminding the Arabs, who believed in the Creator God, of His great creation so that they might cast away the idols... in fact there are verses that rhetorically ask the pagans if they believed God was the creator of everything, then why they still worshiped idols besides Him? (23:84-89)
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/023.qmt.html
I would just like to comment that the Quran was describing creation, rather explaining it... it was retelling simple natural observations any man can observe. For example, the "sun running to its resting placing" was simply describing the movement of the sun in the sky from sunrise to sunset. No scientific mracle or a scientific error, only beautiful imagery of the mundanely observable.Now TR asked me the question:
And what does 18:90 mean? Where was the place of the rising Sun where people have no protection from the Sun? In the flat-Earth model there would be a place where the Sun sets and a place where it rises. Note that this says "THE land of the rising Sun", in reality there is no such place.
and you replied saying:
read the page before this...i posted a tafsir of this verse.
This, again? Ok then, you insist on following the scholars, but
I have already explained that other scholars (in this case, al-Qurtubi) listed as opinions regarding Zul Qarnain story:
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10973.msg297587#msg297587Besides, ask yourself this question: why the group of people from the East were said to have
no cover from the sun while nothing like that was mentioned about the group of people from the West? Hmm? If the author of the Quran thought that the sun is closest to Earth at sunrise/sunset and the verse mentioing the people from the East to be of
no cover from the sun to say that the sun was very close to them, as you claim, then why not say the same about the people from the West? Think, think and then think again.... this description (of a people from the East, having
no cover from the sun), whatever it means, it was not related to cosmology! Probably, it was referring to their being living in open spaces, or whatever, but it obviously has nothing to do with the interpretation of *closeness* of sun at the East, since, by the same reasoning, the same description should have been used regarding the people from the West. Besides, are the people living in the middle are under some sort of a
cover from the sun???!!!
As far as sunni tafsirs go ibn kathir is considered to be the most authentic and a more beginner style tafsir because he stuck with only authentic hadiths to explain things ect..
I can't believe you said this! Ibn Kathir stuck only to *authentic Hadith*? Who told you this OBVIOUS lie? NONE of the exegists stuck to Sahih Hadith, otherwise their big fat books would have been much smaller! So do you think Sahih Hadiths say cows worshipped baby Jesus (according to Ibn Kathir) or that Jesus was equated with God and sent Paul, Simon and John as messengers to the people of Antioch (also according to Ibn Kathir)?!!
Tafsir at tabari was the first tafisr and it uses hadiths that might be weak and also stories from the christians and jews to explain verses ect..
There is also qurtubi
All of them used *any* source their hands got hold of.. it didn't matter if it were Sahih Hadith, weak Hadith, Jewish/Christian folklore or even Greek pseudo science... they wanted to fill their stupid books and they used whatever means they got to do it.
There is more but the only ones that I know of that are translated into english are ibn kathir and jalalayn. and ibn kathir is heavily abridged. It almost seems like they try and keep things from non arab speaking muslims.
No. I think the overall meanings and stuff are the same but they left out certain things. Off the top of my head the tafsir of surah at-tahrim doesn't contain the story about muhammad and mariah qoptiyyah that is in the Arabic version.
Well, when it comes to that particular story, you can't blame them... at least, they followed the Hadiths in the books of prophet Bukhari and prophet Muslim regarding this incident.
Topic: Comments on Debunker and IA debate