Comments on Debunker and IA debate

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #270 - March 27, 2011, 04:52 PM

Ok, Soren, so here's my response to your PM:

Quote from: Soren on March 27, 2011, 08:29 AM
Hi DB

Hope all is well. You haven't been around for a while. I assume you had some problems getting online from Saudi Arabia?

No. I just tend to come and go as I please.

Quote
Well, anyways, I posted a question for you last we chatted (on this thread http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10973.msg302308#msg302308 ). The subject was on what status the Arabs had as a people/group in the Qur'an.

Just a short note: according to 19.54 Ishmael was indeed both a prophet and a messenger - or am I missing something?

you're right, I was wrong.

Quote
So basicly Ishmael was both the first prophet and the first messenger the people of Mecca received. But perhaps Ishmael was no warner? But how then can people of Ishmael's time say that "Yes indeed; a Warner did come to us, but we rejected him and said, 'God never sent down any (Message): ye are nothing but an egregious delusion!" (67.8 ) Every group cast into hell a said to response like this when asked "Did no Warner come to you" (67.7)

And it's still a fact that the different other prophets mentioned above (Hud, Shoaib, Saleh) all had followers who survived the qur'anic gods wrath. So in the same aspect as the Israelites, the Egyptians, the Greeks, the Babylonian etc. the Arabs had recieved prophets and messengers.

If we are to apply your logic, then Noah must be viewed as a messenger/warner to all humanity.

See what I mean? When does a people become of a need of their own messenger is unknown ot me, but certainly applying your reasoning, the answer would be: there's no such need after the first time God sent a messenger.

Quote
And on another topic. Do you have any inside knowledge on the protests which some saudis tried to stage?

No, except that it was a big failure. One protestor did show up though.

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #271 - March 27, 2011, 05:31 PM

Quote
No, except that it was a big failure. One protestor did show up though.

What's the opposite word for exaggerating?

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #272 - March 27, 2011, 05:39 PM

got something to say mufa9a?

what does your nic mean, anyway?

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #273 - March 27, 2011, 05:47 PM

.
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #274 - March 27, 2011, 06:45 PM

Quote from: debunker on March 27, 2011, 05:39 PM
got something to say mufa9a?

what does your nic mean, anyway?

Google says it's Downplaying. But i was looking for a word that didn't insinuate an agenda. Because that's not where i think you're coming from.

My nick has a sentimental touch to it which could prove to be a long story but it basically sourced back to The Lion King. Random choice at the time. But i don't do change without a good or fun reason to it.

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^ Good question. Very puzzling that. Ten pieces of silver for the person who can tell us. She sent me a love letter once privately telling me about how she wants to have S. I'm sure it contained a clue to her hanelde as well, but I deleted it before my significant other could see it. I don't wanna sleep in the dog kennel again.

You're better half is portrayed unfairly .Are you even married?

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #275 - March 27, 2011, 07:45 PM

gge?
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #276 - March 27, 2011, 08:14 PM

Quote from: debunker on March 27, 2011, 04:52 PM
No, except that it was a big failure. One protestor did show up though.

good vid

what a brave protestor though - what do you think happened to him?

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #277 - March 28, 2011, 12:15 AM

indefinitely imprisoned. But that's only a guess.

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #278 - March 28, 2011, 12:18 AM

@ mufa

Quote
Google says it's Downplaying. But i was looking for a word that didn't insinuate an agenda. Because that's not where i think you're coming from.

it would seem you know something i don't regarding these failed plans to demonstrate on March 11. please do share with us what you know.

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #279 - March 28, 2011, 08:38 AM

Quote from: debunker on March 28, 2011, 12:15 AM
indefinitely imprisoned. But that's only a guess.

Yep, I think you are right. would humans rights have no success? do you think he will just disappear & stay in jail forever? I can see why they would want to , as this guy will now become a freedom fighter hero. All he took with him was the shirt on his back, and he knew this was going to happen. His poor family

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #280 - March 28, 2011, 08:59 AM

Quote from: IsLame on March 28, 2011, 08:38 AM
Yep, I think you are right. would humans rights have no success? do you think he will just disappear & stay in jail forever? I can see why they would want to , as this guy will now become a freedom fighter hero. All he took with him was the shirt on his back, and he knew this was going to happen. His poor family

IsLame I wonder whether we have that video in the tube I can not find it., I wish some one could transfer it from that BBC clip

Oops I got it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqgq-jFTHqM

we got to spread this..

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #281 - March 28, 2011, 09:06 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on March 28, 2011, 08:59 AM
IsLame I wonder whether we have that video in the tube I can not find it., I wish some one could transfer it from that BBC clip

Oops I got it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqgq-jFTHqM

we got to spread this..

good work for finding it, because I wanted to add it to my facebook page. will do that now, thanks

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #282 - March 28, 2011, 11:59 AM

Well let me add to fewmore tubes that are related to "Protests in Sand Land"

11 March 2011 Saudi Arabia Day of Rage Shia Unrest Protest Friday

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mQkDdoxzlg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqydZqvgLdE

Hmm This is a good sond

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDYc2sbzA4Y

I think I should send these to Ghaddif's younger son., Both father and son will be quite happy to see those tubes lol..

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #283 - March 28, 2011, 03:58 PM

^^ as usual, yeezevee pretending to know what the hell he's talking about... these demostrations were before March 11 and all the Shia asked for was to release their relatives held in prison indefinitely (without trial) since forever.

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #284 - March 31, 2011, 04:17 PM

yeezevee says
Quote
Well let me add to fewmore tubes that are related to "Protests in Sand Land"

11 March 2011 Saudi Arabia Day of Rage Shia Unrest Protest Friday ..

Quote
and Bunker writes: ^^ as usual, yeezevee pretending to know what the hell he's talking about... these demostrations were before March 11 and all the Shia asked for was to release their relatives held in prison indefinitely (without trial) since forever.

well the tubes gave that date "March 11" Bunker., but it does say Shia Rage and I just reproduced it.

You are right I know nothing except all those OIL WELLS should go to Shia Muslims of Saudi Arabia .,

Wahhabis should pack up and go in to Mecca Madina mosques..

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #285 - April 05, 2011, 08:08 AM

Debunker, those Shias protested for their rights and to stop discrimination against them.

All it took was a few 100 protestors to scare the Moon God Allahs loyal subjects.

Plus, wasnt it the Saudi Clerics who said its Haraam to protest in Saudi but Sunnah to protest against Qadafi. Goes to show once again how Political Islam can be.

It should be banned in every government in every country. We dont need the morals of a 7th century Pedo who had hallucinations of angels and flying mules!
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #286 - April 07, 2011, 03:02 PM

Quote
Debunker, those Shias protested for their rights and to stop discrimination against them.

yeah, and?

Quote
All it took was a few 100 protestors to scare the Moon God Allahs loyal subjects.

and the Shia are... what religion do they follow, btw?

Quote
Plus, wasnt it the Saudi Clerics who said its Haraam to protest in Saudi but Sunnah to protest against Qadafi. Goes to show once again how Political Islam can be.

so what? fuck the Saudi clerics.

Quote
It should be banned in every government in every country. We dont need the morals of a 7th century Pedo who had hallucinations of angels and flying mules!

i hope it would be banned in Afghanistan.

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #287 - April 17, 2011, 01:51 PM

Quote from: debunker on March 27, 2011, 04:52 PM
If we are to apply your logic, then Noah must be viewed as a messenger/warner to all humanity.

See what I mean? When does a people become of a need of their own messenger is unknown ot me, but certainly applying your reasoning, the answer would be: there's no such need after the first time God sent a messenger.

So to wrap it up, we agree that Muhammed was not the first prophet/messenger/warner the Meccans received, right (perhaps they had hundreds or thousands of warners if we are to follow 35.24?)? Ishmael was? And your argument would then be, that the quran is not refering to the arabs as a whole in the relevant verses (fx 28.46, 32.3, 34.44), but to the arab people who lived at Muhammeds time? Basicly we need to have a better definition of the term "people".
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #288 - April 17, 2011, 02:58 PM

Quote
Basicly we need to have a better definition of the term "people".

indeed. In the context of our discussion, "people", is any nation who lost all traces of the teachings of the last monotheistic prophet.

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #289 - April 17, 2011, 03:57 PM

DB - Why do you think Allah chose the Arabs to give the last & final prophet too, as well as a completed Quran in their own language?

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #290 - April 17, 2011, 04:09 PM

^^^

see this: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=10524.msg286324#msg286324

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #291 - April 17, 2011, 09:18 PM

lol that's not an argument, but just citations from the qur'an stating that they had not recieved a warner (your answer to Islame). In theory there could have been sooo many 'people' who hadn't received a warner. No of course the more reasonable explanation is that the arab 'people' was influenced (and hence somehow warned (!)) by the arab christians and jewish inhabitants of Mecca, Medina and other arab cities or dwellings. It's quite likely that the arab peninsula more or less would have recieved the teachings of either the christians or the jews within a relativily short time. Most of the south was already christian or jewish. Most of the northern was christian. And there was considerable groups of both christians and jews scattered throughout the rest of the arab peninsula. At the time of Muhammed it's even possible that some of the bible was translated into arabic - if not written at least orally. The christian message was preached in arabic before the advent of islam and before the birth of Muhammed.

On the point of the term 'people' it's a good definition - in connection to this could you explain how we are to understand 36.06?

An concerning the fact that there where christians and jews among the arabs is it reasonable to say that they had lost all traces of the teachings of the last monotheistic prophet, messenger or warner?
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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #292 - April 17, 2011, 09:33 PM

+1

Quote from: Debunker
So the Arabs were the only nation which didn't receive a prophet before Muhammed and their prophet came with a message to them first and to the rest of humanity as well (this bit is for AbuYunus, btw).

So why do you think Allah did it in the order, whereby Arabs get the last prophet, get kaaba & get the Quran in their language, whereas the rest of the world grt diddley-squat?

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #293 - April 17, 2011, 09:37 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 17, 2011, 09:33 PM
+1
So why do you think Allah did it in the order, whereby Arabs get the last prophet, get kaaba & get the Quran in their language, whereas the rest of the world grt diddley-squat?

Not to mention it's STILL in the Middle East, not that far away from where the Abrahamic faiths were spawned. Talk about being last

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #294 - April 17, 2011, 09:50 PM

And they also get the same fruits they are accustomed to- why are there no exotic passion fruit, kiwi fruit or pineapples available in heaven?

According to the Quran, it seems only those fruits known to those ancient Arabs, such as dates and figs, are available there.

Even cures for poison & black magic are mostly found in plants common in the Arab world & less so in other countries leaving many of us without access to a cure.

Sahih Bukhari Vol.7, Bk.65, No356: Allah's Apostle said, "He who eats seven Ajwa dates every morning, will not be affected by poison or magic on the day he eats them."

It all seems Arab-centric, when these Arabs make up a much tinier fraction than 1% of the worlds population?

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #295 - April 17, 2011, 09:52 PM

The Arabs basically just made it up as they went along, projected things backwards, etc etc etc

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=15578.0

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #296 - April 17, 2011, 10:09 PM

Quote from: Soren on April 17, 2011, 09:18 PM
lol that's not an argument, but just citations from the qur'an stating that they had not recieved a warner (your answer to Islame). In theory there could have been sooo many 'people' who hadn't received a warner. No of course the more reasonable explanation is that the arab 'people' was influenced (and hence somehow warned (!)) by the arab christians and jewish inhabitants of Mecca, Medina and other arab cities or dwellings. It's quite likely that the arab peninsula more or less would have recieved the teachings of either the christians or the jews within a relativily short time. Most of the south was already christian or jewish. Most of the northern was christian. And there was considerable groups of both christians and jews scattered throughout the rest of the arab peninsula. At the time of Muhammed it's even possible that some of the bible was translated into arabic - if not written at least orally. The christian message was preached in arabic before the advent of islam and before the birth of Muhammed.

On the point of the term 'people' it's a good definition - in connection to this could you explain how we are to understand 36.06?

An concerning the fact that there where christians and jews among the arabs is it reasonable to say that they had lost all traces of the teachings of the last monotheistic prophet, messenger or warner?

but these religions were supposedly corrupted. And, Jesus/Moses were not sent to arabs, were they?

EDIT: 36:06? it cliams that the fathers of the Muhammed's contemporary Meccans weren't warned before... so yeah.

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #297 - April 17, 2011, 10:10 PM

Quote from: IsLame on April 17, 2011, 09:33 PM
+1
So why do you think Allah did it in the order, whereby Arabs get the last prophet, get kaaba & get the Quran in their language, whereas the rest of the world grt diddley-squat?

someone had to be last.

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #298 - April 17, 2011, 10:12 PM

and as somebody mentioned earlier, why did he only preserve the Arabic message?

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Re: Comments on Debunker and IA debate
Reply #299 - April 17, 2011, 10:22 PM

again, you yourself asked me this very same question, and i answered, but you didnn't like my answer, but here it is again:

corrupting scripture is the natural course of events. People twist their religions to suit their desires, little by little, the whole thing is gone to some degree. In the case of the Quran, the claim is that its being the final commincation from God, it had to be protected or more prophets would be needed.

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