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Theme Changer

 Topic: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)

 (Read 28724 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 34 5 ... 11 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #60 - June 28, 2010, 10:19 AM

    @ BD

    Quote
    Debunker knows according to religion are we will go to hell. For all of eternitiy. To be punished for all of eternity. Forever, and ever, and ever.

     

    That's not what I believe... I think those who *sincerely* don't believe in the Creator God (I find that very hard to fathom, btw) might still be saved from Hell.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #61 - June 28, 2010, 10:27 AM

    Who are the ones who insincerely disbelieve in God?

    Can you give me any examples?
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #62 - June 28, 2010, 10:40 AM

    I don't know, I can't see inside the hearts of men.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #63 - June 28, 2010, 10:41 AM

    OK, but can you describe what you mean?

    How exactly does one insincerely disbelieve in God?
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #64 - June 28, 2010, 10:42 AM

    Nice one Hanan, I came to this site as an open-minded/liberal muslim then became a sceptic, now I'm an atheist.

    Hope your transition to the latter philosphical phase was fairly smooth. Wink


    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #65 - June 28, 2010, 10:48 AM

    OK, but can you describe what you mean?

    How exactly does one insincerely disbelieve in God?


    For example, when I come across evidence for a Creator God or evidence for the supernatural and I just dismiss it using any justification I can think of.

    Yes, people are capable of dismissing the truth even when it looks them in the eye. People do it all the time, in different situations for various reasons.


    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #66 - June 28, 2010, 10:50 AM

    Nice one Hanan, I started came to this site as an open-minded/liberal muslim then became a sceptic, now I'm an atheist.

    Hope your transition to the latter philosphical phase was fairly smooth. Wink


    I think you came here because you already wanted to leave Islam... but that's just my guess.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #67 - June 28, 2010, 10:50 AM

    What is evidence for a Creator God or evidence for the supernatural?
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #68 - June 28, 2010, 10:51 AM

    I think what debunker was trying to say, is that only God knows best what is in the hearts of men, not us. And yes that includes us Muslims.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #69 - June 28, 2010, 10:56 AM

    What is evidence for a Creator God or evidence for the supernatural?


    Oh I discussed that before in some of my earliest posts.

    But anyway, let's discuss something more interesting, shall we?

    I guess, for example, Hassan refuses to see any evidence for a Creator God simply because he cannot live with the thought of any God who willed this world we live in into being.

    Of course, that's only a guess since I can't see inside Hassan's heart. But I think Hassan's idea of God contradicts with the reality of His creation (this world) and that's why he refuses to see any evidence for Him. 

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #70 - June 28, 2010, 11:06 AM

    No DB I will tell you what, we have been believers and are now atheists.

    I don't think you fully understand the concept of being an atheist or even an agnostic even. Not 100%.

    No, my friend. You are saying this inorder for the Quran to be true and because you can't face the fact that God will send somebody who doesn't honestly believe in him or in Islam to hell. For all of eternity. Instead of removing their soul. He will torture them, forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and then some more.  

    We are not children who have stolen something and when papa and mama say "son have you stolen something?" we shake our heads.

    You are in effect either calling Hassan deluded as if he doesn't know his own heart, or calling him a liar when he says he can't find the evidence compelling and doesn't believe God exists. And that Islam is false.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #71 - June 28, 2010, 11:08 AM

    BD, i was discussing Deism in the previous post, not Islam.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #72 - June 28, 2010, 11:34 AM

    For example, when I come across evidence for a Creator God or evidence for the supernatural and I just dismiss it using any justification I can think of.

    Yes, people are capable of dismissing the truth even when it looks them in the eye. People do it all the time, in different situations for various reasons.


    That's true! An example is confirmation bias - where people look for things that confirm our pre-held views and ignore things that conflict with them. Religious people are arguably the worst offenders.

    Though of course I'm not saying Atheists or Agnostics don't also do it. We all do it - it's part of human nature.

    But it's not done because the person is evil or malicious and they certainly don't deserve eternal punishment for it. If anything then it is the fault of the one who created Humans Beings flawed in this way.

    It cannot be Just - in any way - to torture anyone eternally - even if they have disbelieved because of ignoring evidence. (Even if we were to assume such evidence actually exists - or is so undeniably plain and obvious - which it of course is not.)
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #73 - June 28, 2010, 11:37 AM

    why are you mentioning "torment" when i was discussing Deism?

    Anyway, since we're back to discussing Islam again, the evil or the sin is *pride*... God knows our hearts... He knows why people don't believe in Him whether its out of pride or out of sincerity.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #74 - June 28, 2010, 11:38 AM

    Wait so you mean you can be a deist and still go to heaven?
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #75 - June 28, 2010, 11:40 AM

    Quote
    Wait so you mean you can be a deist and still go to heaven?


    I probably said this a 100 times in this forum. If you believe in the Creator God but you honestly don't believe in the Quran, then at least you won't go to Hell.

    In fact, even if you *honestly* don't believe God exists (and I find that's hard to believe), then at least you won't go to Hell.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #76 - June 28, 2010, 11:41 AM

    Cool. Then why have Islam? Or religion for that matter?

    Why salat?

    Why shahda?

    Why hajj?

    Why fasting?

    Why animal sacrifice?

    Why halal slaughter?

    Why worship?
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #77 - June 28, 2010, 11:45 AM

    Again, I discussed all of this before. The Quranic claim is that the default state of all beings is worship (acknowledging our belonging to the creator). Only man was given the ability to choose otherwise.. I discussed this in more etails in the Exclusive Rooms with Hassan.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #78 - June 28, 2010, 11:51 AM

    why are you mentioning "torment" when i was discussing Deism?


    Sorry I didn't read the whole exchange.

    Anyway, since we're back to discussing Islam again, the evil or the sin is *pride*... God knows our hearts... He knows why people don't believe in Him whether its out of pride or out of sincerity.


    Are you saying a person knows Islam is the truth but is too arrogant or full of pride to believe?

    Again, I would argue that if that is true then the person is either mentally ill or doesn't fully understand the implications of what he is doing. (Honestly, Debunker - would anyone knowingly accept to burn in Hell eternally?)

    Like I said above - human nature is flawed - we all have biases that colour our perceptions. No-one sees things in a totally unbiased or objective manner.

    If there are some people who willfully ignore evidence or refuse to do something out of pride - then it is because of a variety of social, psychological and biological reasons - in short: because we are human and imperfect.

    And as I say, religious people commit this 'crime' just as much as Atheists or Agnostics - perhaps more!

    But regardless - this pride, arrogance or bias cannot in anyway justify eternal torture.

    It amazes me that you can't see that - but then I also understand that you have your own bias and perspective that colours your view - but don't worry I am more forgiving than God Smiley
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #79 - June 28, 2010, 11:57 AM

    @ Hassan,

    like I said I can understand that there are many many people who sincerely don't believe in Islam, but I almost can't believe that anyone can truly not believe in the Creator God.

    As for the rest, I have already discussed all of that in detail with you in the Exclusive Rooms.. I guess I'll copy/paste the relevant part.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #80 - June 28, 2010, 11:58 AM

    Like I said you don't fully understand the atheist/agnostic/skeptic position.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #81 - June 28, 2010, 12:00 PM

    +1

    My Book     news002       
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  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #82 - June 28, 2010, 12:04 PM

    like I said I can understand that there are many many people who sincerely don't believe in Islam, but I almost can't believe that anyone can truly not believe in the Creator God.


    You don't think the lack of undeniable or irrefutable evidence of God - at the very least - gives them cause for doubt and skepticism?
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #83 - June 28, 2010, 12:09 PM

    @ Hassan,

    like I said I can understand that there are many many people who sincerely don't believe in Islam, but I almost can't believe that anyone can truly not believe in the Creator God.

    As for the rest, I have already discussed all of that in detail with you in the Exclusive Rooms.. I guess I'll copy/paste the relevant part.


    The god you refer to as just a creator and the god of Islam are two different concepts.

    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #84 - June 28, 2010, 12:14 PM

    You don't think the lack of undeniable or irrefutable evidence of God - at the very least - gives them cause for doubt and skepticism?


    Oh, the thing is I think we ALL already see undeniable irrefutable evidence.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #85 - June 28, 2010, 12:15 PM

    The god you refer to as just a creator and the god of Islam are two different concepts.


    You need to actually read what I said.

    A googolplex is *precisely* as far from infinity as is the number 1.--Carl Sagan
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #86 - June 28, 2010, 12:18 PM

    Oh, the thing is I think we ALL already see undeniable irrefutable evidence.

    really??? whats undeniable & irrefutable then?  (before you answer please look up what these words mean in the dictionary)

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #87 - June 28, 2010, 12:20 PM

    ... but I almost can't believe that anyone can truly not believe in the Creator God.

    Lol!
    Believe me, it's really easy.
    It's not just that personally I don't believe in any kind of god, for me god and the whole concept of it is completely irrelevant.

    Oh, the thing is I think we ALL already see undeniable irrefutable evidence.

    Interesting. I am all ears.

    And sorry for jumping in like that btw.
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #88 - June 28, 2010, 12:20 PM

    Quote
    Deistic view and its refutation

    Question: I am a deist. I believe in the existence of a creator, but I do not believe that this creator has sent religions, prophets, divine books. I do not believe in the life after death, either. Now am I irreligious?


    ANSWER
    You openly say that you do not believe in any religions. And a person who does not adhere to any particular religious belief is termed irreligious.

    Saying that there is a creator is different from having belief in Allah. You believe in an imaginary being as a creator, who you think does not intervene in anything, like a scarecrow (never!). This belief is no different from atheism. Allahu ta’âlâ has sent humankind various religions, prophets, and divine books since the time of Âdam “alaihissalâm.” A person who denies and disbelieves them is not a believer in Allah.

    All prophets exhibited miracles (mu’jiza) in the most advanced fields of their times and thus proved that they were Allahu ta’âlâ’s prophets. Hadrat Imâm-i Rabbânî declares:
    Magic was at a very advanced level during the time of the Prophet Mûsâ (‘alaihis-salâm). In those days, those who practiced sorcery used to conjure up unreal, nonexistent things in others’ imagination as if they were existent. They were in the highest degree of magic. When they saw that the rod of Mûsâ (‘alaihis-salâm) became a large serpent and ate the snakes which were of their own witchery, they saw that it was beyond the boundaries of magic and above human power. Thus, they believed [in the prophethood of] Mûsâ (‘alaihis-salâm).

    The same was the case with medicine during the time of ‘Îsâ (‘alaihis-salâm); it was at a very advanced level. Hadrat ‘Îsâ cured the diseases that medical specialists could not cure. He opened the eyes of congenital blind people and revivified the dead. He talked when he was in his cradle and proved his prophethood.

    During the time of Muhammad (‘alaihis-salâm), the arts of literature, poetry, and eloquence had reached the highest levels in the Arabian Peninsula. Poets used to boast one another about the eloquence in their poetry. When Rasûlullah brought the Qur’ân al-karîm, most of them, seeing the i’jâz in the Qur’ân al-karîm’s eloquence, realized that it was the Word of Allah and became Muslims. (Ithbât-un-nubuwwa)

    All prophets taught the same îmân and stated the same principles for their umma to believe. All of them communicated the existence and oneness of Allahu ta’âlâ, the endless life in the Hereafter, and the existence of Hell and Paradise. There is not any difference among them in the things to be believed.

    A retrospective view of history will show us that when left alone with no guidance from Allahu ta’âlâ, humans have always deviated into degenerate paths. Using their minds, humans thought of the Omnipotent, who created them, but they could not find the way leading to Him. Those who did not hear about the prophets sent by Allahu ta’âlâ first looked for the Creator around themselves. The sun, being the most useful thing to humans, provoked some humans to think that it was the creative power, and therefore, they began to worship it. Later on, as they saw the great forces of nature, such as a gale, a fire, a furious sea, a volcano and the like, they thought they were assistants to the Creator. They attempted to symbolize each of them. This, in turn, gave birth to idols. They dreaded idols’ wrath and sacrificed animals to them. Unfortunately, they even sacrificed human beings to them. Every new event inspired a new idol, increasing the number of idols symbolizing events. When Islam first graced the earth, there were 360 idols in the Ka’ba. In short, humans, by themselves, can never understand Allahu ta’âlâ, who is eternal in the past and in the future. Even today, there are still people who deify the sun, as well as fire. This should not be amazing because without a guide one cannot find the right way in darkness. (Islam and Christianity)

    All scientists, with a few exceptions, have declared unanimously that this universe did not come into existence by itself and that it has a Creator. No matter how much science progresses, humans can never create an ant, a bird, or a grain of barley. When a wise and learned person observes this universe, he or she will see that it has been created in a perfect order and harmony and understand that it did not come into being by itself. Think that when a machine is produced, an instruction manual is put for would-be users. If it is still difficult to understand, then a training course is initiated in order to instruct people how to use it. When a machine is not used properly, it breaks down. In the like manner, Allahu ta’âlâ, the Creator of all things, too, created this stupendous machine called human, but He has not left it uncontrolled. It is purported in an âyah (verse):
    (Do you think that We have created you in vain?) [Sûrat-ul-Mu’minûn, 115]


    Similarly, these machines called humans have instruction manuals, and these manuals are the holy books sent down by Allahu ta’âlâ by means of His prophets. The holy book He sent to Hadrat Muhammad (‘alaihis-salâm), the final of the prophets, is the Qur’ân al-karîm. Therefore, a person who says “I believe in Allah” has to believe in His Books and His prophets as well. If he or she does not believe in them, such a person is irreligious. An irreligious one, in turn, will go to Hell.

    How wrong to consider Allah as a robot and to say that He does not intervene in anything. Do you claim that a prophet appeared in every century, that he spoke for Allah, and that he told lies (never!)?


    There cannot be a prophet without miracles. Of course, there may appear people who show themselves as prophets and messengers, but they cannot exhibit miracles. Thus, the sham ones are easily distinguished from the real ones. Opening the eyes of the blind, revivifying the dead, water’s flowing from the finger and satisfying the need of the whole army, in a moment journeying from Mecca to Jerusalem and then ascending to the heavens and coming back, lifeless objects’ and animals’ talking are not simple events. Only the prophets sent by Allah can perform such things. If a prophet told a lie, would Allah not intervene? As a matter of fact, an âyah purports:
    (If he [the Messenger] had added some sayings [to the Qur’ân] by ascribing them unto Us, We would certainly have seized him with power, cut off his jugular vein, and destroyed him. None of you could have prevented it.) [Sûrat-ul-Hâqqah, 44-47]

    Therefore, a wise person who says “I believe in Allah” must also believe in the holy books and prophets, perform acts of worship, and avoid what is harâm. If one disbelieves even one of the fundamentals of îmân, then one is not considered to have îmân. One’s saying “I believe only in Allah” is nothing but to deceive oneself. In terms of their states in the Hereafter, there is no difference between an atheist and a person who believes in Allah but who denies the Hereafter. They will stay in Hell eternally. It is idiocy not to fear eternal torment. Hadrat Alî said to a person who did not believe in the Resurrection:
    (We believe in the next world. If there were not a resurrection, we would not suffer any harm on account of our faith and acts of worship. But if what we say occurs, then you will suffer eternal torment.)


    When an irreligious person dies, according to his or her belief, he or she will become annihilated and will no longer exist. But according to Islam, he or she will suffer eternal torment in Hell. A Believer, on the other hand, will live in eternal blessings. Even if being under eternal torment were only a probability, whichever wisdom would risk it? Nevertheless, the life in the next world is not a probability, but an obvious fact. Then a wise and knowledgeable person must believe in Allah and what He has revealed.


    http://www.ourreligionislam.com/detail.asp?Aid=5397
  • Re: I'm officially an Ex-Muslimah :)
     Reply #89 - June 28, 2010, 12:21 PM

    I probably said this a 100 times in this forum. If you believe in the Creator God but you honestly don't believe in the Quran, then at least you won't go to Hell.

    In fact, even if you *honestly* don't believe God exists (and I find that's hard to believe), then at least you won't go to Hell.


    Not true. The Qur'an specifies you must also believe in his moral instructions as infallible and believe in the Qur'an as the word of God otherwise you are an unbeliever.


    "The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves."
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