The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.

12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- Abdul-Fattah
- Rational Muslim
- Muslim
- offline
The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
OP - July 26, 2010, 04:24 PM

There exist many variations and spins on this; but the original riddle goes like this:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

The weakness obviously lies in the deduction on the second premise. It completely leaves out the possibility that there might be a deeper underlying motive for an able God not want to ban evil without him being considered malevolent.

If we understand and analyze the different types of evil, I can find an alternative explanation rather then resorting to God being malevolent.

1. Evil as result of free will.
Many evil things comes from mankind's free will. The problem is freedom of Choice. If you believe -like I do- that life is a test; then God would defeat his own purpose by preventing evil! Stopping evil would prevent free will.
2. Necessary (relative) Evil.
Of course, not all evil of the world can be traced back to human choices. There is a second type, which I'd like to call relative evils. Because their "evilness" is relative to one's perspective. Death for example, gets a whole new perspective if seen as a transition rather then an end. These are things that serve a purpose. It can be a practical purpose, like the mentioned death in order to transit from one world to the next. But other things as hardship can also have practical benefits. For example, it can teach people. Ever noticed how generally speaking, people who had little or no hardships in their life have a higher tendency to be arrogant? Rightful punishment could be another practical evil. As controversial as some of these might be, the point remains that we can imagine alternative motives, without resorting to judging our creator as malevolent for allowing these "evils".
3. Hardship as a test.
And then finally a third type of evil, in general all sorts of hardships and suffering that do not serve a direct purpose in this life. However even these can gain a new perspective if seen in the context of life being a test. There's a huge difference between a poor man who doesn't steal and a rich man who doesn't steal. From that perspective one could consider being poor as a blessing rather then a curse, as it can increase one's reward in the hereafter.

So is God malevolent or not? Well I certainly don't think I can prove my view is right. But I do hope I've just shown that the problem of evil is inconclusive as there is room for alternatives.

www.seemyparadigm.webs.com
- humblesoul
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #1 - July 26, 2010, 04:32 PM

where is the free will in a 5 year old dying of cancer or leukamia...or is that part of the necessary evil or relative evil as you stated above?...

"There aint no devil, it's just God when he's drunk"- Tom Waits
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #2 - July 26, 2010, 04:34 PM

Question - do you believe God to be both omnipotent and omnibenevolent?
- Abdul-Fattah
- Rational Muslim
- Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #3 - July 26, 2010, 04:40 PM

Hi humblesoul
Could you explain why you insist on debating the issue of free will in thread about the problem of evil, and insist on debating the problem of evil in a thread about free will? Is there an obvious link between the two I'm missing or is it just that you thrive on confusion. (Not trying to be sarcastic, genuine question) ^_^

Hi Prince Spinoza,
Before I answer what exactly do you mean by omni-benevolent? I mean, do you see this in an utopic sense? Like never does anything that by anyones standards could be considered bad, or more like in a practical sense, that he always takes the better out of two (or more) options?

www.seemyparadigm.webs.com
- Absurdist
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #4 - July 26, 2010, 04:45 PM

So God is relatively just?

I always thought God was the definition of objectivity.
- mighty_cats
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #5 - July 26, 2010, 04:49 PM

Evil is the result of free will (let's say).....so that makes anything else that isn't evil......what?
- humblesoul
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #6 - July 26, 2010, 04:49 PM

Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on July 26, 2010, 04:40 PM
Hi humblesoul
Could you explain why you insist on debating the issue of free will in thread about the problem of evil, and insist on debating the problem of evil in a thread about free will? Is there an obvious link between the two I'm missing or is it just that you thrive on confusion. (Not trying to be sarcastic, genuine question) ^_^

excuse me, werent you the one who gave free will as a possible alternative to the problem of evil?:
Quote
1. Evil as result of free will.
   Many evil things comes from mankind's free will. The problem is freedom of Choice. If you believe -like I do- that life is a test; then God would defeat his own purpose by preventing evil! Stopping evil would prevent free will.

i have told you before you cant eat your cake and have it, a God who choses not to help help young kids while he has the power to do so is malevolent, you even confirmed that without you even knowing from your second and third option:

Quote
2. Necessary (relative) Evil.
   Of course, not all evil of the world can be traced back to human choices. There is a second type, which I'd like to call relative evils. Because their "evilness" is relative to one's perspective. Death for example, gets a whole new perspective if seen as a transition rather then an end. These are things that serve a purpose. It can be a practical purpose, like the mentioned death in order to transit from one world to the next. But other things as hardship can also have practical benefits. For example, it can teach people. Ever noticed how generally speaking, people who had little or no hardships in their life have a higher tendency to be arrogant? Rightful punishment could be another practical evil. As controversial as some of these might be, the point remains that we can imagine alternative motives, without resorting to judging our creator as malevolent for allowing these "evils".
   3. Hardship as a test.
   And then finally a third type of evil, in general all sorts of hardships and suffering that do not serve a direct purpose in this life. However even these can gain a new perspective if seen in the context of life being a test. There's a huge difference between a poor man who doesn't steal and a rich man who doesn't steal. From that perspective one could consider being poor as a blessing rather then a curse, as it can increase one's reward in the hereafter.

not malevolent my ass...you still havent explained to me how a little girl dying of cancer is a fucking hardship test or necessary evil to your so called all loving allah of a god...

"There aint no devil, it's just God when he's drunk"- Tom Waits
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #7 - July 26, 2010, 04:59 PM

Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on July 26, 2010, 04:40 PM

Hi Prince Spinoza,
Before I answer what exactly do you mean by omni-benevolent? I mean, do you see this in an utopic sense? Like never does anything that by anyones standards could be considered bad, or more like in a practical sense, that he always takes the better out of two (or more) options?

Practicality has no relevance when applied to an omnipotent god.

A God that is, by nature, infinitely and perfectly benevolent.
- mighty_cats
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #8 - July 26, 2010, 05:02 PM

Wheres the free-will of a woman who gets raped?
- Abdul-Fattah
- Rational Muslim
- Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #9 - July 26, 2010, 05:05 PM

Hi abood,
I never implied that, all I did was ask Prince Spinoza a question. You really desperately want to make me look bad, don't you =) I'm sorry that my presence seems to be so threatening to you that you feel the need to respond to me in this way. :p

Hi humblesoul
about the link between free will and evil. I argued that some evil is the result of free will, not that all evil is the result of free will. In other words the bad things that people do is the result of free will. This is not "having my cake and eating it"
As for your question about the examples you put forward; if you believe in an afterlife and you have no way of knowing what kind of reward these children might get; then that puts things in perspective. Perhaps this answer might not be satisfactory to you, but it certainly poses an alternative to deducing that God must be malevolent. And that's all I set out to do with this thread.

Hi mighty_cats
Well, to begin with I would say that some evil is the result of free will. Furthermore some good can be the result of free will as well. Anyway, what was your point?
As for your question on the woman being raped. The free will lies in the man that decides to pursue his physical desires. If what you're saying is you think God should have created the universe without any evil, then you're saying he should have created the universe without free will, as evil is part of the other side of the coin. You cannot give mankind free will, and at the same time ensure they won't abuse that free will to do evil.

Hi Prince Spinoza
I would argue that even an omnipotent God, is limited by his own choices. As Humble-soul keeps saying, you can't have your cake and eat it. I believe the same applies to God. Each choice he makes has a consequence. So each aspect of his choices (i.e. each reality of this universe) should be seen in it's totality, not just a single aspect taken out of context.

www.seemyparadigm.webs.com
- humblesoul
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #10 - July 26, 2010, 05:19 PM

Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on July 26, 2010, 05:05 PM

Hi humblesoul
about the link between free will and evil. I argued that some evil is the result of free will, not that all evil is the result of free will. In other words the bad things that people do is the result of free will. This is not "having my cake and eating it"
As for your question about the examples you put forward; if you believe in an afterlife and you have no way of knowing what kind of reward these children might get; then that puts things in perspective. Perhaps this answer might not be satisfactory to you, but it certainly poses an alternative to deducing that God must be malevolent. And that's all I set out to do with this thread.

from your above post you have just confirmed not only is Allah malevolent but you are malevolent as well!!!

you are talking about reward for those kids suffering? are you fucking kidding me?
so Allah has to watch a kid suffer and die slowly while some other kids are healthy and playing around just so that He (allah) can give the kid some reward in the after life? if he really cares and love the kid why not just give him the bloody reward and get it over with??...but NOOO allah does not work like that, his sadistic ass has to make a kid go through some terrible pain before he can give that kid a reward.....

talking about reward, since you are so big on rewards in the after life why dont you come over to my house let me tie you up while i stuff and ram a coca cola glass bottle up your ass until you slowly bleed and die afterall it is worth it since almighty allah will eventually reward you after you die

"There aint no devil, it's just God when he's drunk"- Tom Waits
- Abdul-Fattah
- Rational Muslim
- Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #11 - July 26, 2010, 05:30 PM

Hi humblesoul,
I'm sorry if my views offended you. Perhaps this issue is emotionally delicate for you. Nevertheless I do think there is logic on my viewpoint. And I think you might be able to see that, but that perhaps you are not willing to accept it based on emotional objections?

www.seemyparadigm.webs.com
- olweasel
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #12 - July 26, 2010, 05:30 PM

Quote from: mighty_cats on July 26, 2010, 05:02 PM
Wheres the free-will of a woman who gets raped?

In dressing provocatively.

"Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
- Robert Louis Stevenson
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #13 - July 26, 2010, 05:32 PM

Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on July 26, 2010, 05:30 PM
Hi humblesoul,
I'm sorry if my views offended you. Perhaps this issue is emotionally delicate for you. Nevertheless I do think there is logic on my viewpoint. And I think you might be able to see that, but that perhaps you are not willing to accept it based on emotional objections?

humeblesoul is more merciful, more humble and kinder than your god will ever be

get real
- humblesoul
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #14 - July 26, 2010, 05:41 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on July 26, 2010, 05:32 PM
humeblesoul is more merciful, more humble and kinder than your god will ever be

get real

..that i definately know for sure ...i am way more merciful than Allah and Mo could ever be!!!

Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on July 26, 2010, 05:30 PM
Hi humblesoul,
I'm sorry if my views offended you. Perhaps this issue is emotionally delicate for you. Nevertheless I do think there is logic on my viewpoint. And I think you might be able to see that, but that perhaps you are not willing to accept it based on emotional objections?

i don't see any logic in your viewpoint.,,,anyone with an iota of human feeling can see that Allah is malevolent!!!

"There aint no devil, it's just God when he's drunk"- Tom Waits
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #15 - July 26, 2010, 05:45 PM

AF please look at this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harlequin_type_ichthyosis

Tell me this is NOT the opposite of good or that it has a meaning, this is a horrible disease.

The only way you can accept that this is good is because of the rewards in heaven. An assumption and also a nasty way of looking at things, why was this kid even created? Even if I was burned by parents and then given a gift wouldn't I be angry? Especially if I knew that they didn't have to burn me, or that I didn't want to be burned if given the choice. And especially since they know what they are putting me through and they say they love me.

And because you have to accept it because its a sin to call Allah an evil bastard or to even feel angry at him.

Why in the world would create a disease like this? What purpose does this serve?

And by the way simply praying for him or her to heal won't help. In fact it doesn't help for anything. Because prayers go unanswered.
- TheLastKnight
- Member
- Atheist
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #16 - July 26, 2010, 05:54 PM

Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on July 26, 2010, 04:24 PM
From that perspective one could consider being poor as a blessing rather then a curse, as it can increase one's reward in the hereafter.

I would call this rather unfair. Given the choice, anyone would spend 80 years in desperate poverty if they received some sort of everlasting reward. In a few hundred billion years those first 80 years will be as nothing. After the next hundred billion trillion trillion trillion trillion years you probably don't remember the poverty anymore anyway. According to your reasoning, Allah is guilty of favoritism, even if it doesn't seem that way to us now.

Also, if you truly believe this, will you donate everything you are worth to charity and spend the rest of your life in poverty?

It's almost like Pascal's wager: if Allah approves you 'win' by receiving your reward. If Allah does not approve, well, it's just one measly lifetime of a few decades in poverty compared to the possibility of eternal reward. I think that's a pretty fair bet.

Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
- Abdul-Fattah
- Rational Muslim
- Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #17 - July 26, 2010, 06:30 PM

Quote
I would call this rather unfair. Given the choice, anyone would spend 80 years in desperate poverty if they received some sort of everlasting reward. In a few hundred billion years those first 80 years will be as nothing. After the next hundred billion trillion trillion trillion trillion years you probably don't remember the poverty anymore anyway. According to your reasoning, Allah is guilty of favoritism, even if it doesn't seem that way to us now.

How is that unfair? Aren't you just acknowledging that the bad is greatly outweighed by the good? Or is that just your point, and do you consider that unfair?

Quote
Also, if you truly believe this, will you donate everything you are worth to charity and spend the rest of your life in poverty?

Luckily for me, Islam forbids me to spend to the point that I would become needy myself. But I do spend a considerable amount. In fact I have a minimalistic lifestyle to support this. And it's not just wealth, but time as well. I spend a considerable amount of my time helping people, and by that I don't mean dawah.

Quote
It's almost like Pascal's wager: if Allah approves you 'win' by receiving your reward. If Allah does not approve, well, it's just one measly lifetime of a few decades in poverty compared to the possibility of eternal reward. I think that's a pretty fair bet.

Yes

www.seemyparadigm.webs.com
- deusvult
- O......O
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #18 - July 26, 2010, 07:13 PM

I will gladly take anyone's money who wishes to take a vow of poverty.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
- tony stark$
- BANNED Sockpuppet (DigDug)
- Member
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #19 - July 26, 2010, 07:33 PM

Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on July 26, 2010, 05:05 PM
Hi abood,
I never implied that, all I did was ask Prince Spinoza a question. You really desperately want to make me look bad, don't you =) I'm sorry that my presence seems to be so threatening to you that you feel the need to respond to me in this way. :p

Many here will have this reaction because they do not know enough to discuss things rationally with you. The more your explainations make things clear the more people will react negatively. (they will eventually just start insulting Islam, the Prophets and even you)

Most people here were "cultural" muslims who didn't really leave Islam but left their culture. (They know next to nothing about actual Islam, most you will find have never even read the Quran)
- deusvult
- O......O
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #20 - July 26, 2010, 07:34 PM

Insulting Islam is one of those terms which really means " I heard something I didn't like"

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #21 - July 26, 2010, 07:36 PM

Quote from: tony stark$ on July 26, 2010, 07:33 PM
Most people here were "cultural" muslims who didn't really leave Islam but left their culture. (They know next to nothing about actual Islam, most you will find have never even read the Quran)

Prove it, faggot.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 03:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- deusvult
- O......O
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #22 - July 26, 2010, 07:38 PM

I really should trademark the " No True Muslim" ^TM fallacy. I would be rich.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
- s12345
- Member
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #23 - July 26, 2010, 07:39 PM

@abdul fattah & tony stark.

philosophy is inconclusive. it piles up arguments pro and against a position without ever proving anything.

my advice to you : start relying on science instead of philosophy. philosophy is pseudo knowledge.
- deusvult
- O......O
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #24 - July 26, 2010, 07:45 PM

Philosophy is dovetailing into brain imagining, and psychology. The leaders in the field of neuroscience are fast becoming philosophers.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
- TheRationalizer
- Pub Regular
- Gone - due to unfair moderation
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #25 - July 27, 2010, 05:57 AM

Fact: Diseases exist which we have no control over. Many are indiscriminate as to whether they attack adults or children. They not only kill us but do so in a horribly painful way.

Scenario 1:
A beautiful god exists.
He has the power to do anything.
He knows everything.
He has more compassion than I do.
He created those viruses to kill painfully and indiscriminately for some reason we don't know, but due to some beautiful plan these children must die painful deaths.

Scenario 2:
Humans + viruses are just the same as every other life form on Earth, we exist due to copying with slight variation and environmental elimination.
There is no purpose except for the life form to be as successful as possible.

Conclusion:
Scenario 2 is simple and makes perfect sense. There is no justice because there is no justice giver. Shit just happens, if it didn't we wouldn't be here.

Scenario 1 makes no sense. Any being which would make a young innocent child suffer a slow and agonising death like bone cancer just to test if the child's parents will still love the being that inflicted the suffering is a complete and utter shit head. Any being with the power to stop that suffering yet sits by and does nothing AND is responsible for causing the disease in the first place is less compassionate than I am.

In short, disease serves no purpose. It's either

A: A freak accident of evolution.
B: The design of a malevolent being.
C: The accident of a flawed being.

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
- humblesoul
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #26 - July 27, 2010, 06:20 AM

Quote from: tony stark$ on July 26, 2010, 07:33 PM
Many here will have this reaction because they do not know enough to discuss things rationally with you. The more your explainations make things clear the more people will react negatively. (they will eventually just start insulting Islam, the Prophets and even you)

Most people here were "cultural" muslims who didn't really leave Islam but left their culture. (They know next to nothing about actual Islam, most you will find have never even read the Quran)

same old same old NO TRUE SCOTSMAN FALLACY ...havent you got better arguments

Quote from: TheRationalizer on July 27, 2010, 05:57 AM
Fact: Diseases exist which we have no control over. Many are indiscriminate as to whether they attack adults or children. They not only kill us but do so in a horribly painful way.

Scenario 1:
A beautiful god exists.
He has the power to do anything.
He knows everything.
He has more compassion than I do.
He created those viruses to kill painfully and indiscriminately for some reason we don't know, but due to some beautiful plan these children must die painful deaths.

Scenario 2:
Humans + viruses are just the same as every other life form on Earth, we exist due to copying with slight variation and environmental elimination.
There is no purpose except for the life form to be as successful as possible.

Conclusion:
Scenario 2 is simple and makes perfect sense. There is no justice because there is no justice giver. Shit just happens, if it didn't we wouldn't be here.

Scenario 1 makes no sense. Any being which would make a young innocent child suffer a slow and agonising death like bone cancer just to test if the child's parents will still love the being that inflicted the suffering is a complete and utter shit head. Any being with the power to stop that suffering yet sits by and does nothing AND is responsible for causing the disease in the first place is less compassionate than I am.

In short, disease serves no purpose. It's either

A: A freak accident of evolution.
B: The design of a malevolent being.
C: The accident of a flawed being.

+1

"There aint no devil, it's just God when he's drunk"- Tom Waits
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #27 - July 27, 2010, 06:54 AM

Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on July 26, 2010, 05:05 PM

Hi Prince Spinoza
I would argue that even an omnipotent God, is limited by his own choices. As Humble-soul keeps saying, you can't have your cake and eat it. I believe the same applies to God. Each choice he makes has a consequence. So each aspect of his choices (i.e. each reality of this universe) should be seen in it's totality, not just a single aspect taken out of context.

I'm not asking about God's limits or actions. I'm asking about his inherent nature. Is God's nature infinitely and perfectly good? Yes/No?
- z10
- Pub Regular
- Imago Dei
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #28 - July 27, 2010, 11:28 AM

I find the best way to overcome the problem of evil is to adopt the position of Spinoza - there is no good or evil, the universe/ nature/ god just is and that is all there is to it.

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
- Kod
- CEMB Egyptian Mafia
- Ex-Muslim
- Further and further We have to jump
- offline
Re: The riddle of Epicurus a.k.a. the problem of evil.
Reply #29 - July 27, 2010, 11:48 AM

Quote from: Abdul-Fattah on July 26, 2010, 05:05 PM

As for your question about the examples you put forward; if you believe in an afterlife and you have no way of knowing what kind of reward these children might get; then that puts things in perspective. Perhaps this answer might not be satisfactory to you, but it certainly poses an alternative to deducing that God must be malevolent. And that's all I set out to do with this thread.

so basically you are lying to yourself or trying to make this after life business work in order to justify the death of children ?
fuck yea this answer will not satisfy me or anyone in this forum

[13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
[13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
[13:37] <Fimbles> see
[13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »