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Theme Changer

 Topic: Physics and atoms

 (Read 6658 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Physics and atoms
     OP - August 18, 2010, 10:02 AM
    Hi all

    Sorry for being intentionally vague Smiley

    If there is someone here who is well versed in physics at an atomic level would you mind sending me a PM?  I particularly wish to discuss the bonding of atoms to form molecules, and what happens to the electrons etc.


    Thanks!
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #1 - August 18, 2010, 10:19 AM
    All I remember from physics is that electrons are fucking awesome.

    Awesome as in... they do not really orbit around the nuclei like satellites around planets, but they exist all around it in a "field of probability" so to speak.
    And the shape and size of such field depends on a quantized energy state of the elctron.
    So it can "jump" from one field unto the other when it receives/releases energy.

    And I forgot the rest ^_^

    I should reread all this shit cause it's kinda cool.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #2 - August 18, 2010, 10:23 AM
    Oh and...
    Atoms bind together when their electron fields get shared.

    The coolest form of binding is the "aromatic" ring that 6 carbons can form together.
    Where all their electrons effectively get mingled and shared all around the ring.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #3 - August 18, 2010, 10:23 AM
    Fuck, I should restudy physics, this is making me orgasm ^_^
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #4 - August 18, 2010, 10:34 AM
    When two oxygen atoms bind to a carbon atom what happens to the other 4 electrons?  Are these what are converted into energy and emitted?



    If I broke apart this molecule would it be because I introduced enough energy for one of the atoms to have its full set of electrons and nullify the electro magnetic imbalance?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #5 - August 18, 2010, 11:12 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on August 18, 2010, 10:34 AM
    When two oxygen atoms bind to a carbon atom what happens to the other 4 electrons?  Are these what are converted into energy and emitted?

    The electrons are not lost/emitted.

    When two atoms bond, they share their electrons.
    Let's take a simpler molecule: H2O.
    Each H by itself has 1 electron existing somewhere around it.
    O by itself has 2 electrons existing somewhere around it.

    In the H2O molecules, the electrons are shared, so basically:
    Each H in H2O has 2 electrons existing somewhere around it (its original electron, and one electron from O)
    And the O in H2O has 4 electrons existing somewhere around it (its original 2 electrons, and one electron from each of the two H)

    Quote from: TheRationalizer on August 18, 2010, 10:34 AM
    If I broke apart this molecule would it be because I introduced enough energy for one of the atoms to have its full set of electrons and nullify the electro magnetic imbalance?

    No, there is no electro-magnetic imbalance.

    That "shared electron" configuration is at a lower energy state than each atom having a separate electrons.
    When you introduce energy, you give the atoms enough energy to switch to the higher energy state.

    When the opposite happens and two free atoms bond together, they switch to a lower energy state, so energy is released in the form of photons, heat, radiation, or whatever else.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #6 - August 18, 2010, 11:16 AM
    I don't understand the following diagram



    My instinct tells me that X means "shared electron", but the Carbon in the middle has 2 X in its inner shall and that doesn't make sense to me.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #7 - August 18, 2010, 11:19 AM
    BTW:

    Quote
    You don't have permission to access /Carbon-Dioxide-Molecule.gif on this server.


    So I cannot see that image :S
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #8 - August 18, 2010, 11:21 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on August 18, 2010, 11:16 AM
    Oh yes, I didn't spot that oxygen's first two electrons are on the inner shell.  There are still 14 electrons in total.

    If you are talking about CO2, there should be only 8 electrons.
    4 from C, 2*2 from the two O
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #9 - August 18, 2010, 11:23 AM
    Ah no wait, I am mixing electrons with their orbitals Grin
    You are right
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #10 - August 18, 2010, 11:23 AM
    LOL, Tlaloc explained it much better than I did.

    My explanation was a mess, I probably confused you further, but my memory of it isn't so good.
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #11 - August 18, 2010, 11:26 AM
    I don't get the question lol but there are 6 electrons in the outer shell of Oxygen and 2 from each O form covalent bonds with the outer electrons in the Carbon atom (of which there are four.) The other 4 electrons in the outer shell of each Oxygen atom will form 2 lone pairs. And each Carbon and Oxygen atom has 2 electrons in the inner shell.

    Edit: I see you have a diagram that shows it already.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #12 - August 18, 2010, 11:26 AM
    The red x represents the electrons belonging to the carbon atom
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #13 - August 18, 2010, 11:31 AM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 18, 2010, 11:26 AM
    I don't get the question lol but there are 6 electrons in the outer shell of Oxygen and 2 from each O form covalent bonds with the outer electrons in the Carbon atom (of which there are four.) The other 4 electrons in the outer shell of each Oxygen atom will form 2 lone pairs. And each Carbon and Oxygen atom has 2 electrons in the inner shell.

    Edit: I see you have a diagram that shows it already.

    Ah, thanks! They are called shells, not orbitals.
    I really cannot remember this shit anymore ^_^
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #14 - August 18, 2010, 11:32 AM
    Okay let's look at h2o instead

    I read in a physics book that the 2nd shell is full when it has 8 electrons, and that's why 1 or 2 H's will bond with it because that fills up the shell.  That's what we see in this picture
    http://earthsci.org/education/teacher/basicgeol/miner/h2o.gif

    So in this diagram
    http://www.gcsescience.com/Carbon-Dioxide-Molecule.gif

    They use "o" to denote an electron in the Oxygen atom, and an X to denote the electron in the Carbon atom.  I think I understand the diagram now, if they had used "X" and "Y" I'd have got it ages ago!  I thought that "X" meant they were shared or something!  At last I understand it!

    Now onto the next question.  When two atoms bind they release some energy, do we know where that energy comes from?  Also if putting energy into a stack atoms makes their binding break they would need this energy back, does that come from the energy that is jiggling the atoms?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #15 - August 18, 2010, 11:35 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on August 18, 2010, 11:16 AM
    I don't understand the following diagram

    (Clicky for piccy!)

    My instinct tells me that X means "shared electron", but the Carbon in the middle has 2 X in its inner shall and that doesn't make sense to me.



    Oh, memories coming back.

    Red X is a carbon electron, blue O is oxygen electron.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #16 - August 18, 2010, 11:36 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on August 18, 2010, 11:31 AM
    Ah, thanks! They are called shells, not orbitals.
    I really cannot remember this shit anymore ^_^


    You're not wrong. Each shell contains several orbitals in them. The electrons don't orbit the nucleus like planets around a star.  Smiley
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #17 - August 18, 2010, 11:40 AM
    TheRationalizer  first you read this  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_bond and next you read Linus Pauling..  http://osulibrary.oregonstate.edu/specialcollections/coll/pauling/bond/  after that read the good old book http://www.amazon.com/General-Chemistry-Linus-Pauling/dp/0486656225

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #18 - August 18, 2010, 11:42 AM
    .
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #19 - August 18, 2010, 11:42 AM
    Ok, since I am bored... This afternoon I am gonna restudy the basic of atomic physics and molecular physics, cause I realized it's all vague in my memory ^_^
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #20 - August 18, 2010, 11:46 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on August 18, 2010, 11:42 AM
    Ok, since I am bored... This afternoon I am gonna restudy the basic of atomic physics and molecular physics, cause I realized it's all vague in my memory ^_^


    I also have a vague memory of it all, I feel embaressed, although I'm sure this covers more chemistry study than physics.
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #21 - August 18, 2010, 11:54 AM
    Quote from: stardust on August 18, 2010, 11:46 AM
    I also have a vague memory of it all, I feel embaressed, although I'm sure this covers more chemistry study than physics.


    There were other questions which were more related to physics Smiley

    Why does some energy cause the atoms to jiggle and some cause electrons to jump up a shell?  Is it because it misses the electron?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #22 - August 18, 2010, 11:55 AM
    Quote from: Tlaloc on August 18, 2010, 11:42 AM
    Ok, since I am bored... This afternoon I am gonna restudy the basic of atomic physics and molecular physics, cause I realized it's all vague in my memory ^_^

    Wanna share any good links you have? I need to start restudying it all too. Infact if you have any book recommendations, then that would be good too. I've only read Hawkings book so far on physics, need something else that's similar (as in no confusing mathematics, just the basic theory behind the ideas).
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #23 - August 18, 2010, 11:55 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on August 18, 2010, 11:54 AM
    There were other questions which were more related to physics Smiley

    Why does some energy cause the atoms to jiggle and some cause electrons to jump up a shell?  Is it because it misses the electron?



    Well it would have to be a certain amount of energy to make the electron jump up a shell.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #24 - August 18, 2010, 11:58 AM
    Quote from: Prince Spinoza on August 18, 2010, 11:55 AM
    Well it would have to be a certain amount of energy to make the electron jump up a shell.


    Yes, but when there is enough energy does it always excite the electron first and the excess jiggles the nucleus?  This cannot be the case otherwise we'd experience lots of light and little heat.  Unless of course only a tiny amount of energy is needed to produce the heat so the left overs from the electrons are just fine?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #25 - August 18, 2010, 11:59 AM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on August 18, 2010, 11:54 AM
    There were other questions which were more related to physics Smiley

    Why does some energy cause the atoms to jiggle and some cause electrons to jump up a shell?  Is it because it misses the electron?



    Radiation energy causes the electrons to jump, the photons. I don't think the photons can affect the nucleus, because of the specific amount of energy needed to enable a photon (with that energy) to interaction with an electron (or proton/neutron I'm guessing applies here too).

    Any other photons of other energies won't give it the right amount of energy to jump to the next allowed shell state.

    The jiggling i'm sure is just caused by thermal energy.
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #26 - August 18, 2010, 12:01 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on August 18, 2010, 11:58 AM
    Yes, but when there is enough energy does it always excite the electron first and the excess jiggles the nucleus?  This cannot be the case otherwise we'd experience lots of light and little heat.  Unless of course only a tiny amount of energy is needed to produce the heat so the left overs from the electrons are just fine?


    Nope, the photon has to have The exact energy needed to excite the electron (no excess energy photon can impart part of it's energy, it's either all or nothing situation.)
    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #27 - August 18, 2010, 12:02 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on August 18, 2010, 11:58 AM
    Yes, but when there is enough energy does it always excite the electron first and the excess jiggles the nucleus?  This cannot be the case otherwise we'd experience lots of light and little heat.  Unless of course only a tiny amount of energy is needed to produce the heat so the left overs from the electrons are just fine?


    Edit: See Stardust's explanation.
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #28 - August 18, 2010, 12:02 PM
    Quote from: stardust on August 18, 2010, 11:59 AM
    Radiation energy causes the electrons to jump, the photons. I don't think the photons can affect the nucleus, because of the specific amount of energy needed to enable a photon (with that energy) to interaction with an electron (or proton/neutron I'm guessing applies here too).

    Any other photons of other energies won't give it the right amount of energy to jump to the next allowed shell state.

    The jiggling i'm sure is just caused by thermal energy.


    Yes, the jiggling is caused by energy, but if electrons ALWAYS jumped shells then we'd have most of the energy absorbed by electrons producing photons and we'd end up with lots of light and little heat.


    Quote from: stardust on August 18, 2010, 12:01 PM
    Nope, the photon has to have The exact energy needed to excite the electron (no excess energy photon can impart part of it's energy, it's either all or nothing situation.)


    But when you talk about energy an atom may receive 2Mev of energy and 1Mev is consumed by the electron jumping up a shell leaving the other 1Mev to continue on its way.  It's when the electron jumps back down a shell that it emits this energy as a photon.  
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Physics and atoms
     Reply #29 - August 18, 2010, 12:07 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on August 18, 2010, 11:55 AM
    Wanna share any good links you have? I need to start restudying it all too. Infact if you have any book recommendations, then that would be good too. I've only read Hawkings book so far on physics, need something else that's similar (as in no confusing mathematics, just the basic theory behind the ideas).

    I was searching for something right now...
    But in Italian, so I can go faster.

    But I cannot find any cool site.
    Do not look directly at the operational end of the device.
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