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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: What is the meaning of life
  • to leave the world a better place than when you entered it - 2 (5.6%)
  • to have fun/enjoy oneself - 0 (0%)
  • there is no meaning - 12 (33.3%)
  • we are in charge of creating our own meaning - 12 (33.3%)
  • to serve god - 1 (2.8%)
  • to find out what the meaning is - 0 (0%)
  • to be the best person you can be - 0 (0%)
  • to find true happiness - 0 (0%)
  • to love and be loved - 0 (0%)
  • to reproduce, evolve, and propogate our species - 1 (2.8%)
  • there is one, but it can't be known - 2 (5.6%)
  • there may or may not be one, but it can't be known - 0 (0%)
  • other (elaborate) - 2 (5.6%)
  • to obtain "enlightenment" - 4 (11.1%)
  • to advance knowledge - 0 (0%)
  • Total Voters: 36

 Topic: The meaning of life

 (Read 13492 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 4 5 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #30 - August 20, 2010, 08:00 AM

    In what way are human minds "feeble"? Do you think insects and other species understand the world better than us? By all means, I'm anti-speciesism, but I believe that humans became more self-aware as a result of evolution and are thus "fitter" as a result. It's just that other species are more superior than us in other ways. I really don't think animals understand the world better than us, because they don't need to for them to survive and evolve.

    Other species have a set meaning of life because their routine is their life. Humans have that as well. Only when and if they realize the irrelevance and meaninglessness of their routine do they start wondering what the meaning of life is. And that's exactly why religious people are happy; because they have meaningful routines. When Muslims pray five times a day, they believe that there's a god out there listening to them, so it's a meaningful routine; their routines are not a mindless waste of time; they never wake up wondering why they repeat the same thing over and over and over again, because they know exactly why. And remember that Islam is connected with everything, so whatever you do, you do it for God. It's true that Islam provides the most meaning to life, and I think that partially explains why there are many Muslim converts, especially recently, in the age of commercialism and postmodernism.

    But if you stop believing in God, if you stop believing in  the one thing that keeps you anchored to the meaning of life, a day comes when you're suddenly hit with the realization that you're doing everything for absolutely no purpose; your routine is meaningless and irrelevant and you might as well not be doing anything. I personally woke up many days with absolutely no motivation to get out of bed, wondering why exactly I should, why it matters whether I get up or stay in bed my entire life. I just wanted to end my life, right there, without even leaving the room.

    It's like humans evolved too much for their own good. It's like our self-awareness and our questioning why is negatively affecting us as a species. Will it lead to people committing suiciding? Perhaps. But as Albert Camus says, killing yourself ends the Absurd, because the Absurd is a relationship, between human life, human questioning, and the universe, the relationship -- the paradox -- of wanting to understand, but being unable to. And beauty becomes the meaning of life. You stop trying to understand the universe, knowing very well that you never will, you stop deconstructing the universe, and instead enjoy its beauty, its oneness. The world is beautiful, the universe is beautiful, and you can only truly appreciate it when you know you can never understand it.

    I've tried many times as a Muslim to look at the sky and see the majesty of God's creation, but I was never awed. I always felt that there was a block between me and the universe. Today, every time I look at the stars or the horizon, it's like a mystical experience. My relationship with the universe is my religion, my meaning, my source of happiness. And knowing that it's because I'm alive that I can experience this -- that's what keeps me alive.


    Great post  Afro

    I decided to focus on physics partly because at that time I thought somehow knowing how the world works would give me an insight to the meaning of life too, but as I proceeded in my course I came to realise nobody knows any better. Knowing how the world works doesn't give you a better idea on the meaning of life, but it does help you appriciate the magnificence of the universe.

    There is no one ultimate answer to the meaning of life, we evolved to see purpose in things, the purpose for watering plants, for building houses, for tools, so it's a natural state of mind to want purpose for everything and when we grow up, it becomes about the purpose of life. I think we may even be able to 'answer' that question, or have a better idea if we evolve to a greater awareness level if humans survive long enough, I think we're still in primary phases of awareness.

    Sometimes I like to sit still and close my eyes and imagine how the planets formed and going further back, how the big bang occured and then I think well what's beyond that, so I imagine there was some cause for it (perhaps those colliding membranes as some theorise) then beyond that...'where' would those membranes have originated from...and then it all comes back to my mind, my imagination, just me sitting here with my eyes closed, it's an exhilarting experience. Imagination is a very powerful tool.

    What is the purpose? There isn't any, we don't have roles to play, we are free. And because of our awareness level we're more free than other animals and nature, which are stuck in routine and repetition, humans broke that chain, yet I believe residues remain that's why we have a tendency for routine rather than playing with new things and ideas, and that's why we feel a void and want to fill that with religion. But it shouldn't be filled with religion, create something new to fill that! Something better! Infact religion is better in the sense it's better than this role of just survival, religion fills it with morals etc for guidance, but once you realise you are free to create your own destiny (athough there's the difficulty of getting through systems and other people who try to take your choices away), you have choice in life.

    I think in death you find the 'true answer' to the meaning of life - "you never know what you have until it's taken away".  When your life is taken, that's when 'you'* realise what life truely was, but I think generations down the line if humans evolve to greater awareness then they may be able to see that without dying.

    *I believe you don't remain a seperate conscious entity after death but merge with everything.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #31 - August 20, 2010, 11:46 AM

    In what way are human minds "feeble"? Do you think insects and other species understand the world better than us? By all means, I'm anti-speciesism, but I believe that humans became more self-aware as a result of evolution and are thus "fitter" as a result. It's just that other species are more superior than us in other ways. I really don't think animals understand the world better than us, because they don't need to for them to survive and evolve.

    Other species have a set meaning of life because their routine is their life. Humans have that as well. Only when and if they realize the irrelevance and meaninglessness of their routine do they start wondering what the meaning of life is. And that's exactly why religious people are happy; because they have meaningful routines. When Muslims pray five times a day, they believe that there's a god out there listening to them, so it's a meaningful routine; their routines are not a mindless waste of time; they never wake up wondering why they repeat the same thing over and over and over again, because they know exactly why. And remember that Islam is connected with everything, so whatever you do, you do it for God. It's true that Islam provides the most meaning to life, and I think that partially explains why there are many Muslim converts, especially recently, in the age of commercialism and postmodernism.

    But if you stop believing in God, if you stop believing in  the one thing that keeps you anchored to the meaning of life, a day comes when you're suddenly hit with the realization that you're doing everything for absolutely no purpose; your routine is meaningless and irrelevant and you might as well not be doing anything. I personally woke up many days with absolutely no motivation to get out of bed, wondering why exactly I should, why it matters whether I get up or stay in bed my entire life. I just wanted to end my life, right there, without even leaving the room.

    It's like humans evolved too much for their own good. It's like our self-awareness and our questioning why is negatively affecting us as a species. Will it lead to people committing suiciding? Perhaps. But as Albert Camus says, killing yourself ends the Absurd, because the Absurd is a relationship, between human life, human questioning, and the universe, the relationship -- the paradox -- of wanting to understand, but being unable to. And beauty becomes the meaning of life. You stop trying to understand the universe, knowing very well that you never will, you stop deconstructing the universe, and instead enjoy its beauty, its oneness. The world is beautiful, the universe is beautiful, and you can only truly appreciate it when you know you can never understand it.

    I've tried many times as a Muslim to look at the sky and see the majesty of God's creation, but I was never awed. I always felt that there was a block between me and the universe. Today, every time I look at the stars or the horizon, it's like a mystical experience. My relationship with the universe is my religion, my meaning, my source of happiness. And knowing that it's because I'm alive that I can experience this -- that's what keeps me alive.

    Poster of the month material Afro

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #32 - August 20, 2010, 12:19 PM

    Poster of the month material Afro

     Smiley

    There is no one ultimate answer to the meaning of life, we evolved to see purpose in things, the purpose for watering plants, for building houses, for tools, so it's a natural state of mind to want purpose for everything and when we grow up, it becomes about the purpose of life. I think we may even be able to 'answer' that question, or have a better idea if we evolve to a greater awareness level if humans survive long enough, I think we're still in primary phases of awareness.

    That's the wrong attitude to take. You need to lose hope. That's the source of freedom. A person with hope will spend his life searching for the meaning of life. He's perpetually depressed. He'd be like a guy who lost something and spends his entire life looking for it. But a hopeless person is a person who enjoys life for what it is. He's happy, and doesn't look for anything else other than what he has: his life.

    It's like a car ride. When you drive with a destination in mind, you just want to get there, and if you get lost, you get really pissed off and just want to get back on track. Even if there's beautiful scenery right outside your window, you drive right past it, scurrying to find your way again. But if you go for a joy ride, you have absolutely no destination, no specific route, nothing... you just go for a ride, take whatever turn you can, go with the flow, look out the window and enjoy the scenery, and even if you get lost, so what? At the end of the day, you know you'll be back exactly where you started, one way or another, so you just keep driving till you get back home, and you might be home without even knowing it.
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #33 - August 20, 2010, 12:24 PM

    So?


    Reproduce.
    I plan to pop out as many kiddies as possible. Someone's gotta do it.  yes

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #34 - August 20, 2010, 12:32 PM

    I relect the views of others on this one, particular the pic that M-C posted of evolution.  

    The question presupposes an answer.  Why do so many people believe there has to be a meaning?  

    We're just apes with a a refined a system for talking, and suddenly we expect life to have meaning  Huh?

    Do what you want with your life because it has no deeper meaning.  When we come to terms with that, I feel we wont need to ask the question.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #35 - August 20, 2010, 12:32 PM

    Smiley
    That's the wrong attitude to take. You need to lose hope. That's the source of freedom. A person with hope will spend his life searching for the meaning of life. He's perpetually depressed. He'd be like a guy who lost something and spends his entire life looking for it. But a hopeless person is a person who enjoys life for what it is. He's happy, and doesn't look for anything else other than what he has: his life.

    It's like a car ride. When you drive with a destination in mind, you just want to get there, and if you get lost, you get really pissed off and just want to get back on track. Even if there's beautiful scenery right outside your window, you drive right past it, scurrying to find your way again. But if you go for a joy ride, you have absolutely no destination, no specific route, nothing... you just go for a ride, take whatever turn you can, go with the flow, look out the window and enjoy the scenery, and even if you get lost, so what? At the end of the day, you know you'll be back exactly where you started, one way or another, so you just keep driving till you get back home, and you might be home without even knowing it.


    That's a load of rubbish, 'lose hope'? What I said that centuaries into the future it maybe that humans will have a better understanding of 'the meaning of life' because their brains have evolved further than ours, and what's wrong with that? Just because you believe it maybe possible one day to find the meaning of life, doesnt mean you can't be happy with the present, it's like thinking in the future life could be so much easier (with better technology aid) does that mean you're going to get all upset over that and become miserable?

    Living in the present completely is also a bad idea, you need a balance, you need dreams and hopes to drive you a little further, to drive humanity to better itself (and to have direction, rather than aimlessly wandering and thinking 'oh maybe one day we'll get there somehow', you don't just somehow get anywhere without focus and drive) pushing knowledge forward, rather being stuck in one place.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #36 - August 20, 2010, 12:41 PM

    Great post  Afro

    I decided to focus on physics partly because at that time I thought somehow knowing how the world works would give me an insight to the meaning of life too, but as I proceeded in my course I came to realise nobody knows any better. Knowing how the world works doesn't give you a better idea on the meaning of life, but it does help you appriciate the magnificence of the universe.

    There is no one ultimate answer to the meaning of life, we evolved to see purpose in things, the purpose for watering plants, for building houses, for tools, so it's a natural state of mind to want purpose for everything and when we grow up, it becomes about the purpose of life. I think we may even be able to 'answer' that question, or have a better idea if we evolve to a greater awareness level if humans survive long enough, I think we're still in primary phases of awareness.

    Sometimes I like to sit still and close my eyes and imagine how the planets formed and going further back, how the big bang occured and then I think well what's beyond that, so I imagine there was some cause for it (perhaps those colliding membranes as some theorise) then beyond that...'where' would those membranes have originated from...and then it all comes back to my mind, my imagination, just me sitting here with my eyes closed, it's an exhilarting experience. Imagination is a very powerful tool.

    What is the purpose? There isn't any, we don't have roles to play, we are free. And because of our awareness level we're more free than other animals and nature, which are stuck in routine and repetition, humans broke that chain, yet I believe residues remain that's why we have a tendency for routine rather than playing with new things and ideas, and that's why we feel a void and want to fill that with religion. But it shouldn't be filled with religion, create something new to fill that! Something better! Infact religion is better in the sense it's better than this role of just survival, religion fills it with morals etc for guidance, but once you realise you are free to create your own destiny (athough there's the difficulty of getting through systems and other people who try to take your choices away), you have choice in life.

    I think in death you find the 'true answer' to the meaning of life - "you never know what you have until it's taken away".  When your life is taken, that's when 'you'* realise what life truely was, but I think generations down the line if humans evolve to greater awareness then they may be able to see that without dying.

    *I believe you don't remain a seperate conscious entity after death but merge with everything.



    Upon what is this belief founded? Hope and wishful thinking? See trying to seek things out of interest is not wrong and many scientists do this but its when you have some preconcieved notion of the answer and are simply looking to find evidence to sustain that, that's wrong. That's not objective. you are just thinking with your gut. It reminds me of that time when Someone asked Carl sagn what he thought about something (can't recall) and Sagan said he didn't know. The person asked what his gut was telling him and he said famously "I try not to think with my gut."


    Also, there are many things which are natural to the human mind and we are very naturally capable of them but it doesn't mean we should, or those things are necessarily positive or better than others. Rape is one of them. trying to look for higher meaning in and purpose (beyond what it is simply evident) is just a mindless effort because you are wasting your effort on possible false positives. It's important to gather data and be knowledgeable and then make conclusions, not the other way around. A thirst for curiousity is a lot different from being certain you have the ultimate meaning of life. And thus propelling any research with one mindset (curiousity and vague imaginings) is not as unfruitful as being certain you have the answer or imagining wild propositions before you even get started.

    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #37 - August 20, 2010, 12:49 PM

    What does life being easier have anything to do with having meaning?

    And no, I don't need direction. Why would I say "Oh maybe one day we'll get there somehow" if I don't actually have anywhere to go?

    Losing hope in finding meaning means being free to do whatever you want, instead of wasting your life searching for something you won't find and being depressed about it.

    And what exactly is this "meaning" we might one day find? Is it like the meaning Islam has? Because if it is, then I'd rather be free than confined to my routine, no matter how meaningful. You see, being self-aware and having a routine don't go together. Once you're free, you don't want to go back.

    By the way, "losing hope" is not a concept I came up with. I've taken it from Camus' work, a philosopher whom I'm greatly indebted to for giving me happiness in life. Smiley
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #38 - August 20, 2010, 12:51 PM

    That's a load of rubbish, 'lose hope'? What I said that centuaries into the future it maybe that humans will have a better understanding of 'the meaning of life' because their brains have evolved further than ours, and what's wrong with that? Just because you believe it maybe possible one day to find the meaning of life, doesnt mean you can't be happy with the present, it's like thinking in the future life could be so much easier (with better technology aid) does that mean you're going to get all upset over that and become miserable?

    Living in the present completely is also a bad idea, you need a balance, you need dreams and hopes to drive you a little further, to drive humanity to better itself (and to have direction, rather than aimlessly wandering and thinking 'oh maybe one day we'll get there somehow', you don't just somehow get anywhere without focus and drive) pushing knowledge forward, rather being stuck in one place.

    I think you are talking about personal goals & what you want out of life, rather than the meaning to life.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #39 - August 20, 2010, 12:52 PM

    +1 to whoever.

    This is all very interesting. Words fill me with wonder, etc.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #40 - August 20, 2010, 12:56 PM

    And what exactly is this "meaning" we might one day find? Is it like the meaning Islam has? Because if it is, then I'd rather be free than confined to my routine, no matter how meaningful. You see, being self-aware and having a routine don't go together. Once you're free, you don't want to go back.

    I think you are now going the same train of thought to Stardust, and discussing what we want out of life.  But nevertheless you raise an interesting point about routine. 

    How are you to avoid it, if you want to remain fit, get your chores done, eat well, study, keep a job etc  Without these things that you will also be miserable.  I think the best way towards happines is to keep a good balance of routine & randomness.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #41 - August 20, 2010, 12:59 PM

    I agree, IsLame.

    It's not routine itself that's bad, but rather when the routine becomes mindless and second nature; when you do something because you've been doing it. Even in Islam, I was taught that you shouldn't pray because "you have to", but rather because you want to. In other words, you have to be conscious of the fact that you're praying.
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #42 - August 20, 2010, 01:04 PM

    I agree, IsLame.

    It's not routine itself that's bad, but rather when the routine becomes mindless and second nature; when you do something because you've been doing it. Even in Islam, I was taught that you shouldn't pray because "you have to", but rather because you want to. In other words, you have to be conscious of the fact that you're praying.

    But following Islam sometimes is like doing a mindless job at a factory assembly line.  You do it as second nature because you have too, not because you want too.

    Despite the myth, its very rare that you will find a person who does things just for the sake of doing them, so you point is muted.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #43 - August 20, 2010, 01:06 PM

    The point I was making is that even Islam recognizes the dullness of routine, which is why it tells you you have to do something because you want to.

    Of course Islam is full of mindless routines, and that's one of the main reasons I don't ever want to go back into it.

    A routine is fine as long as you know why exactly you're doing it. If you go to the grocery store every week, you know exactly why. But why go to a grocery store the same day, same time every week? That can become dull, and you wonder why you do it at that time exactly... so you would want to change that. It's a routine, but it doesn't have to be the exact same thing every single time. And you know exactly why you do what you do. You remain conscious of the fact that you go there to get food and groceries, and that you need to go there.
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #44 - August 20, 2010, 01:17 PM

    Upon what is this belief founded? Hope and wishful thinking? See trying to seek things out of interest is not wrong and many scientists do this but its when you have some preconcieved notion of the answer and are simply looking to find evidence to sustain that, that's wrong. That's not objective. you are just thinking with your gut. It reminds me of that time when Someone asked Carl sagn what he thought about something (can't recall) and Sagan said he didn't know. The person asked what his gut was telling him and he said famously "I try not to think with my gut."


    Also, there are many things which are natural to the human mind and we are very naturally capable of them but it doesn't mean we should, or those things are necessarily positive or better than others. Rape is one of them. trying to look for higher meaning in and purpose (beyond what it is simply evident) is just a mindless effort because you are wasting your effort on possible false positives. It's important to gather data and be knowledgeable and then make conclusions, not the other way around. A thirst for curiousity is a lot different from being certain you have the ultimate meaning of life. And thus propelling any research with one mindset (curiousity and vague) is not as unfruitful as being certain you have the answer or imagining wild propositions before you even get started.



    Those are just my personal beliefs, my 'meaning of life' as it were, I'm allowed to choose what meaning I give to my life arnt I?  Or do you want to dictate that to me? I can believe what I like about the afterlife for now since there's no so scientific knowledge, based on evidence, on it currently.

    I'm not saying you should as well, I was sharing my ideas on it, because that's what this thread is about.

    Actually scientists do have a preconcieved notion of 'the answer' based on new theories they create, which they do using the avaliable scientific theories and and then they go searching for the evidence to sustain that e.g. the Higgs Boson particle.

    'Thinking with your gut' or instincts is actually a tool that has been used by scientists 'they had a feeling' (like something at the tip of their tongue or mind in this casee) about something and then looked into it (this is something my profs have mentioned to me). You need a starting point to something novel, and imaginative and creative thinking is what gives it.

    With the natural state of mind...you took what I said out of context, I said we grow up seeing purpose in all sorts of things, thus our minds come to a natural state of expecting to see purpose, and yes there are lots of things that are natural to us and somethings are bad, somethings good and some are neutral, asking a question as 'what is the meaning of life?' you see it as a bad natural state of mind? You can't say it is a bad natural thing, because we have all thought of it once in our lives and we havn't harmed anyone by it, but if you think that way, that's your view doesn't mean it's right, prove to me it's a bad thing to ask this question and look for this meaning. I think it will be a great shame to start put limitations on the amount of questioning people are allowed to do, since it is questions that made the modern world.


    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #45 - August 20, 2010, 01:40 PM

    Life is its own end.

    "...every imperfection in man is a bond with heaven..." - Karl Marx
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #46 - August 20, 2010, 01:55 PM

    no wonder i like this place.

    Quote
    Sometimes I like to sit still and close my eyes and imagine how the planets formed and going further back, how the big bang occured and then I think well what's beyond that, so I imagine there was some cause for it (perhaps those colliding membranes as some theorise) then beyond that...'where' would those membranes have originated from...and then it all comes back to my mind, my imagination, just me sitting here with my eyes closed, it's an exhilarting experience. Imagination is a very powerful tool.


    i'm sure i've had exactly the same train of thought on a few occasions at least


    Quote
    Living in the present completely is also a bad idea, you need a balance, you need dreams and hopes to drive you a little further, to drive humanity to better itself (and to have direction, rather than aimlessly wandering and thinking 'oh maybe one day we'll get there somehow', you don't just somehow get anywhere without focus and drive) pushing knowledge forward, rather being stuck in one place.


     Smiley

    Quote
    Actually scientists do have a preconcieved notion of 'the answer' based on new theories they create, which they do using the avaliable scientific theories and and then they go searching for the evidence to sustain that e.g. the Higgs Boson particle.

    'Thinking with your gut' or instincts is actually a tool that has been used by scientists 'they had a feeling' (like something at the tip of their tongue or mind in this casee) about something and then looked into it (this is something my profs have mentioned to me). You need a starting point to something novel, and imaginative and creative thinking is what gives it.


    true that. who said all bengalis were dumb  Roll Eyes
    indeed a lot of physicists follow ideas beacuse they 'feel right' (symmetry is one, another is the feeling that there must be an underlying theory that reformulates the already hugely successful theories of quantum mechanincs and general relativity into one theoretical framework etc.)


    Quote
    You can't say it is a bad natural thing, because we have all thought of it once in our lives and we havn't harmed anyone by it, but if you think that way, that's your view doesn't mean it's right, prove to me it's a bad thing to ask this question and look for this meaning. I think it will be a great shame to start put limitations on the amount of questioning people are allowed to do, since it is questions that made the modern world.


    Yeah, i think achieving a balance here is an important thing - if you have a personal drive to understand these things it can make your life feel more enriched without harming anyone (indeed it could potentially be of great benefit to humanity) - as long as you don't expect to find the answer and it doesn't become an obsession. So basically if you are searching for some deeper meaning, keep in mind that you probably won't find the answer. In any case, it's the journey that makes it music (or some shit)

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #47 - August 20, 2010, 01:58 PM

    Those are just my personal beliefs, my 'meaning of life' as it were, I'm allowed to choose what meaning I give to my life arnt I?  Or do you want to dictate that to me? I can believe what I like about the afterlife for now since there's no so scientific knowledge, based on evidence, on it currently.


     The rational standpoint is to not make judgements and make stuff up. until you have evidence. You wait for evidence, then make judgements. It's "there is yet no evidence for hell," so I won't believe in it. That's a rational disbelief. "there's evidence so i will believe it"--rational belief. Then there's irrational belief "there's no evidence for it but I believe".

    Quote
    I'm not saying you should as well, I was sharing my ideas on it, because that's what this thread is about.

    Actually scientists do have a preconcieved notion of 'the answer' based on new theories they create, which they do using the avaliable scientific theories and and then they go searching for the evidence to sustain that e.g. the Higgs Boson particle.



    there's difference between having possible answers and being certain you have the answer before you have it and finding evidence to satisfy that gut feeling rather than objective search for the answer. I was talking about the sort of wild imaginings such as your belief about what happens after we die, which is based on no proof. and you're entitled to that belief obviously.
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    'Thinking with your gut' or instincts is actually a tool that has been used by scientists


    Erm no. you don't think with your gut, ergo why its not a good thing to do. You think with your brain and you dont accept things just because you have a feeling it might be right. Gut feelings themselves are not bad things and instinct aids in the wonder and appetite for scientific enquiry but thinking with your gut essentially is what should be avoided. It plays a part in inspiration and wonder, however.

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    With the natural state of mind...you took what I said out of context, I said we grow up seeing purpose in all sorts of things, thus our minds come to a natural state of expecting to see purpose, and yes there are lots of things that are natural to us and somethings are bad, somethings good and some are neutral, asking a question as 'what is the meaning of life?' you see it as a bad natural state of mind?


    No. it's not good to seek purpose in everything outside of what is the thing's evident purpose in its place in nature. It's just groping around in the dark.
    Quote
    You can't say it is a bad natural thing, because we have all thought of it once in our lives and we havn't harmed anyone by it, but if you think that way, that's your view doesn't mean it's right, prove to me it's a bad thing to ask this question and look for this meaning. I think it will be a great shame to start put limitations on the amount of questioning people are allowed to do, since it is questions that made the modern world.


    I believe I have said it's a not such a great thing, and Im aware this is my opinion.  It doesn't harm anyone but nor does that make it beneficial. No one is putting limitations on anything, slow down Smiley. This is called a discussion/debate and in it we might have opposing ideas but what I do not go about enforcing people to share my view or else, and thus limit them. That's not right. Questioning is great but its the answers you decide settle on that make the difference. Are those answers founded on logic or wishful thinking?


    "If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #48 - August 20, 2010, 02:00 PM

    +1 to whoever.

    This is all very interesting. Words fill me with wonder, etc.


    -9.6. Ha! Take that.
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #49 - August 20, 2010, 02:04 PM

    What does life being easier have anything to do with having meaning?


    (Easier life -> less stress, more free time etc-> happier) You said one would be depressed if they had hope for the answer because they would spend their life searching for the meaning of life. I said humans may find an answer if their minds evolve, so generations down the line into the future, so having hope for a bright future for humanity (after your dead) doesnt necessarily mean you'll be depressed about it, that's why I compared it to technology making life easier in the future.

    You have to believe in the impossible sometimes, to make it possible, like planes - people laughed at those who suggested one day humans maybe able to fly - they didn't know how then or have the scientific knowledge, but they had hope and dreams, which drove them to find answers. Sometimes those dreams lead to a dead end, but you make new ones and you continue. So maybe asking and searching for 'the meaning of life?' isn't so stupid.

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    And no, I don't need direction. Why would I say "Oh maybe one day we'll get there somehow" if I don't actually have anywhere to go?


    I didn't mean personally going anywhere, I meant overall attitude of humanity, to move in a positive direction.

    Quote
    Losing hope in finding meaning means being free to do whatever you want, instead of wasting your life searching for something you won't find and being depressed about it.


    You didn't get me, I said MAYBE IF HUMANS EVOLVE TO GREATER AWARENESS OVER CENTUARIES OF GENERATIONS they will be able to understand 'the meaning of life' concept better (for me it includes what happens after death and everything). but I don't think it's possible to find 'the answer' currently, but doesn't mean someone can't try dedicating their lives to it if they want and I don't think it necessarily means they'll be depressed.

    Quote
    And what exactly is this "meaning" we might one day find? Is it like the meaning Islam has? Because if it is, then I'd rather be free than confined to my routine, no matter how meaningful. You see, being self-aware and having a routine don't go together. Once you're free, you don't want to go back.


    If I knew that I wouldn't have said we may find it one day, I'd have said 'I know the meaning of life now'.

    With the routine and self awareness I agree with you there, I don't think I even disagreed with you on that part in my post.

    Quote
    By the way, "losing hope" is not a concept I came up with. I've taken it from Camus' work, a philosopher whom I'm greatly indebted to for giving me happiness in life. Smiley


    That's nice, nice to know you're happy, I may look into that concept, thanks.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #50 - August 20, 2010, 02:15 PM

    -9.6. Ha! Take that.

    You're right, Take That probably were the meaning of life. Besides, my power level is still over eight thousand nine hundred and ninety point four, FYI.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #51 - August 20, 2010, 02:31 PM

    there is no such thing as meaning of life

    you only assume thqt there is a meaning so you wont feel stupid doing it or get bad thooughts but really if you are rational about your thoughts u would know that there arent any meanings at all

    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
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  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #52 - August 20, 2010, 02:34 PM

    Stardust, I think you're confusing the question of the meaning of life with the question of what to do with your own life (as z10 already mentioned exists in this thread in general). I'm not opposed to people doing something productive in their lives and having goals; what I'm opposed to is people believing we're born for something. We're not born with a purpose, and it's ridiculous to think we are -- that's all I'm saying. We need to lose hope in the idea that there's an ultimate meaning to our lives and everything we do. Existence has absolutely no teleological purpose. There is nothing beyond the Universe. The Universe has intrinsic purposes for species, etc., yes, but extrinsic, no.

    But does that mean people should not be productive and progress, etc.? On the contrary, knowing that this is the only life we have gives us more of a desire to do something with it. There are very religious people who do nothing but pray and meditate and are completely disconnected from this world, because they believe that this world is nothing compared to their meaning; they believe in a teleological purpose for the Universe and therefore they seek it. They seek to go to Heaven, or whatever. But when you stop believing in Heaven and all the meanings given to the Universe, you'll actually want to go out there and make a meaning out of your own life. But at the same time, if someone doesn't want to, that's up to them -- there's no absolute standard saying someone ought to be productive with their lives and do something. That's all social pressure and social rules telling us not to be "losers" or whatever, and it's society that defines what "succeeding" is.
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #53 - August 20, 2010, 02:47 PM

    The rational standpoint is to not make judgements and make stuff up. until you have evidence. You wait for evidence, then make judgements. It's "there is yet no evidence for hell," so I won't believe in it. That's a rational disbelief. "there's evidence so i will believe it"--rational belief. Then there's irrational belief "there's no evidence for it but I believe".


    I've already told you, they're my beliefs and not based on any science or logic for that and I'm not imposing it on anyone. And I can settle for those answers for now if I wish. (I never said I'm fixed in my views, if evidence comes along to say, 'this is what happens after death', then I'd believe the evidence, but there isn't at the moment so I will go with what gives me the most satisfaction.) No, I know I'm not taking a rational standpoint, I'm going with my imagination and yes I'm wishful thinking about what happens after death.

    Quote
    there's difference between having possible answers and being certain you have the answer before you have it and finding evidence to satisfy that gut feeling rather than objective search for the answer. I was talking about the sort of wild imaginings such as your belief about what happens after we die, which is based on no proof. and you're entitled to that belief obviously.


    Well I misunderstood what you wrote then, I thought you were indicating that they look at what's there and only then try to make sense of it.

    Quote
    Erm no. you don't think with your gut, ergo why its not a good thing to do. You think with your brain and you dont accept things just because you have a feeling it might be right. Gut feelings themselves are not bad things and instinct aids in the wonder and appetite for scientific enquiry but thinking with your gut essentially is what should be avoided. It plays a part in inspiration and wonder, however.


    You took my words out of context....if you look at the whole paragraph there.

    This is what I said "'Thinking with your gut' or instincts is actually a tool that has been used by scientists 'they had a feeling' (like something at the tip of their tongue or mind in this casee) about something and then looked into it (this is something my profs have mentioned to me). You need a starting point to something novel, and imaginative and creative thinking is what gives it. " - read it all.

    When I said 'thinking with your gut' I meant when you're on your own and letting your imagination run wild, sorry for any misunderstanding. One of the top physics professors at my university stressed that imagination, pondering, letting your mind flow without focus, also known as creative thinking is when you get you the best ideas, your mind can link various concepts together easily then and create something new and genius and then you work on that with your rational mind, either dispelling it or finding it has given you a new view or lead on something.

    Quote
    No. it's not good to seek purpose in everything outside of what is the thing's evident purpose in its place in nature. It's just groping around in the dark.
    I believe I have said it's a not such a great thing, and Im aware this is my opinion.  It doesn't harm anyone but nor does that make it beneficial. No one is putting limitations on anything, slow down Smiley. This is called a discussion/debate and in it we might have opposing ideas but what I do not go about enforcing people to share my view or else, and thus limit them. That's not right. Questioning is great but its the answers you decide settle on that make the difference. Are those answers founded on logic or wishful thinking?

    [/b]

    That's true, I would settle for evidence based answers over mere beliefs anyday, but for my personal needs currently, my needs for a peace of mind and emotional comfort, I am allowing myself to believe what I have said and with no evidence for otherwise, I feel happy with it.

    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #54 - August 20, 2010, 03:49 PM

    Stardust, I think you're confusing the question of the meaning of life with the question of what to do with your own life (as z10 already mentioned exists in this thread in general). I'm not opposed to people doing something productive in their lives and having goals; what I'm opposed to is people believing we're born for something. We're not born with a purpose, and it's ridiculous to think we are -- that's all I'm saying. We need to lose hope in the idea that there's an ultimate meaning to our lives and everything we do. Existence has absolutely no teleological purpose. There is nothing beyond the Universe. The Universe has intrinsic purposes for species, etc., yes, but extrinsic, no.

    Life doesn't have a set purpose.

    But you can attribute a purpose to your own life.

    You don't need to justify your existence, though.

    Anyhow, it'll be insignificant in the face of an indifferent world.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #55 - August 20, 2010, 04:04 PM

    The question isn't: What's the meaning of your own life? It's: What's the meaning of life? In other words, of existence, of the Universe; why are we here exactly? What purpose does our being serve? The answer is NOTHING.
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #56 - August 20, 2010, 04:05 PM

    If there was a universal meaning to human life, then what would be the purpose of the life of a baby born with Charlotte Cleverley-Bisman disease that dies shortly after birth?
    I am allowing myself to believe what I have said and with no evidence for otherwise, I feel happy with it.

    Which is?
    No, I know I'm not taking a rational standpoint, I'm going with my imagination and yes I'm wishful thinking about what happens after death.

    What do you believe happens after death?

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  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #57 - August 20, 2010, 04:08 PM

    In other words, of existence, of the Universe; why are we here exactly? What purpose does our being serve? The answer is NOTHING.

    I wasn't trying to say otherwise.

    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #58 - August 20, 2010, 04:10 PM

    If there was a universal meaning to human life, then what would be the purpose of the life of a baby born with Charlotte Cleverley-Bisman disease that dies shortly after birth?

    Which is?

    What do you believe happens after death?



    Which is what I wrote in my first post on this thread and which is partly why Eph and I were exchanging posts.

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    I think in death you find the 'true answer' to the meaning of life - "you never know what you have until it's taken away".  When your life is taken, that's when 'you'* realise what life truely was, but I think generations down the line if humans evolve to greater awareness then they may be able to see that without dying.

    *I believe you don't remain a seperate conscious entity after death but merge with everything.



    "Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

    'Life is just the extreme expression of complex chemistry' - Neil deGrasse Tyson
  • Re: The meaning of life
     Reply #59 - August 20, 2010, 04:14 PM

    Quote
    I think in death you find the 'true answer' to the meaning of life - "you never know what you have until it's taken away".  When your life is taken, that's when 'you'* realise what life truely was

    Huh?



    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
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