Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe

12 3 ... 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
OP - September 02, 2010, 12:57 PM

Stephen Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe

By Laura Roberts
Published: 6:15AM BST 02 Sep 2010

The Big Bang was the result of the inevitable laws of physics and did not need God to spark the creation of the Universe, Stephen Hawking has concluded. The scientist has claimed that no divine force was needed to explain why the Universe was formed.

In his latest book, The Grand Design, an extract of which is published in Eureka magazine in The Times, Hawking said: “Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.”

He added: “It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going.” In A Brief History of Time, Prof Hawking's most famous work, he did not dismiss the possibility that God had a hand in the creation of the world.

He wrote in the 1988 book: "If we discover a complete theory, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason — for then we should know the mind of God.” In his new book he rejects Sir Isaac Newton's theory that the Universe did not spontaneously begin to form but was set in motion by God.

In June this year Prof Hawking told a Channel 4 series that he didn't believe that a "personal" God existed. He told Genius of Britain: "The question is: is the way the universe began chosen by God for reasons we can't understand, or was it determined by a law of science? I believe the second. If you like, you can call the laws of science 'God', but it wouldn't be a personal God that you could meet, and ask questions."
Until his retirement last year Prof Hawking was Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at the University of Cambridge, a post previously held by Newton.

-------

source

...
- z10
- Pub Regular
- Imago Dei
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #1 - September 02, 2010, 01:08 PM

so are we to suppose that the laws of science are eternal?

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #2 - September 02, 2010, 01:18 PM

Quote from: z10 on September 02, 2010, 01:08 PM
so are we to suppose that the laws of science are eternal?

Yes, just like god. I guess, the words "god" and "science" are interchangeable.

...
- s12345
- Member
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #3 - September 02, 2010, 01:20 PM

@z10 : you really have a soft corner for some idea of god?
- z10
- Pub Regular
- Imago Dei
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #4 - September 02, 2010, 01:24 PM

yes, I would say I agree with a somewhat pantheist idea of god, certainly

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #5 - September 02, 2010, 01:28 PM

If god or gods could be eternal, then why could not the laws of science be eternal?

...
- z10
- Pub Regular
- Imago Dei
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #6 - September 02, 2010, 01:29 PM

Of course they can, I just wonder if that is what Hawking subscribes to.

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #7 - September 02, 2010, 01:30 PM

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.”

I think he has a book coming out or it may be out already, so it would be interesting to hear the scientific mechanism he proposes for this, if he proposes one at all. Currently I haven't heard any theoretcial physicist propose a scientific mechanism of how the Universe would create itself from nothing, so should be interesting to hear what the great man has to say. But the part of the sentence that catches my attention is 'Because there is a law such as gravity'. Why is there a law such as gravity? why in fact are there laws for there for electromagnetism? or quantum mechanics? These are incredibly inticrate and mathematically beautiful laws - are we to assume that they simply have always existed? It's taken ceturies and a lot of genius to figure these laws out - but are we taking for granted that they simply happen to exist?

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- Ishina
- Militant Atheist
- Ex-Muslim
- No Fate But What We Make
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #8 - September 02, 2010, 01:31 PM

I always wondered how much 'intelligent' design it would take to throw primal matter into the void and let it become what it will, colliding violently, randomly, along on whatever momentum it manages to attain, and temporarily forming patterns by chance.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #9 - September 02, 2010, 01:33 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 01:30 PM
Why is there a law such as gravity? why in fact are there laws for there for electromagnetism? or quantum mechanics? These are incredibly inticrate and mathematically beautiful laws - are we to assume that they simply have always existed? It's taken ceturies and a lot of genius to figure these laws out - but are we taking for granted that they simply happen to exist?

I'm sure you are aware that swapping the word(s) '(creator) god' in there is just as valid a question, so I'm gonna spare you my rant.
- s12345
- Member
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #10 - September 02, 2010, 01:42 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 01:30 PM
“Because there is a law such as gravity, the Universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the Universe exists, why we exist.”

I think he has a book coming out or it may be out already, so it would be interesting to hear the scientific mechanism he proposes for this, if he proposes one at all. Currently I haven't heard any theoretcial physicist propose a scientific mechanism of how the Universe would create itself from nothing, so should be interesting to hear what the great man has to say. But the part of the sentence that catches my attention is 'Because there is a law such as gravity'. Why is there a law such as gravity? why in fact are there laws for there for electromagnetism? or quantum mechanics? These are incredibly inticrate and mathematically beautiful laws - are we to assume that they simply have always existed? It's taken ceturies and a lot of genius to figure these laws out - but are we taking for granted that they simply happen to exist?

its taken 'human intelligence' such a long time to figure them out. there is nothing special about human intelligence or human perception of time. subjective feelings of beauty have nothing to contribute to the question of creation / creator.
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #11 - September 02, 2010, 01:47 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 01:30 PM
Why is there a law such as gravity? why in fact are there laws for there for electromagnetism? or quantum mechanics? These are incredibly inticrate.........

Not really. They're actually rather simple as far as the basic equations go. The intricacy only comes about because of the sheer number of things those equations are controlling simultaneously.

Anyway Hawking's statement doesn't sound right to me, because last I heard the laws of this universe only apply to this universe and there is no reason to suppose that other universes run according to the same laws. Also, gravity is something that acts over time in space and neither time nor space were relevant before the Big Bang AFAIK.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #12 - September 02, 2010, 01:53 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on September 02, 2010, 01:33 PM
I'm sure you are aware that swapping the word(s) '(creator) god' in there is just as valid a question, so I'm gonna spare you my rant.

true that. but asking questions regarding the existence or non existence of a creator God is at least currently byond the realm of science and perhaps will ever remain so. it doesn't make sense to ask anything scientifically regarding the existence of God, including the hows and whys of how he might exist - it could very well be beyond our scientific logic (i.e. it could be possible for an incredibly complex God to have always have existed without being created - perhaps not according to human logic - but how do we know that the existence of God would necessarly be bound by the logic and science of our universe). but laws such as gravity and QM - we can smell them, we can see them, we can touch them, somehow we have been able to figure out how they work and use them to make predictions - they are part of our science and since they are part of our science it is logical to ask question regarding where they came from or how they came to exist.

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #13 - September 02, 2010, 01:57 PM

Quote from: Ishina on September 02, 2010, 01:31 PM
I always wondered how much 'intelligent' design it would take to throw primal matter into the void and let it become what it will, colliding violently, randomly, along on whatever momentum it manages to attain, and temporarily forming patterns by chance.

...
- z10
- Pub Regular
- Imago Dei
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #14 - September 02, 2010, 02:02 PM

Quote from: Ishina on September 02, 2010, 01:31 PM
I always wondered how much 'intelligent' design it would take to throw primal matter into the void and let it become what it will, colliding violently, randomly, along on whatever momentum it manages to attain, and temporarily forming patterns by chance.

do you think the beauty and majesty of the cosmos can be reduced to the locomotive collisions of primal, inert matter? perhaps even, do you think that the human mind can be reduced to being the affect of such random collisions?

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #15 - September 02, 2010, 02:08 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on September 02, 2010, 01:47 PM
Not really. They're actually rather simple as far as the basic equations go. The intricacy only comes about because of the sheer number of things those equations are controlling simultaneously.

Some of the mathematical equations can be pretty simple and elegant (the laws for EM, the wave function in QM etc.), but the ways in which they work can be very intricate, quantum mechanics is an example. I think there is no denying that they are incredibly beautiful laws.

Quote
Anyway Hawking's statement doesn't sound right to me, because last I heard the laws of this universe only apply to this universe and there is no reason to suppose that other universes run according to the same laws.

Sure, I didin't see anything that he said contadicting this.

Quote
Also, gravity is something that acts over time in space and neither time nor space were relevant before the Big Bang AFAIK.

True. I think his explanation might (i'm guessing) have something to do with an idea pouplar amongst big bang inflation cosmologists that there might have existed an inflation feild that feeds of gravity (a type of higgs feild) to 'inflate' a small amount of energy into a hugely larger amount of energy. this is however a radical proposal and no-one knows if an inflation feild can actually exist. I think what Hawking might be proposing is something similar except he has extrapolated from a 'small amount of energy' to 'nothing' - somehow. would be interesting to read his book.

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #16 - September 02, 2010, 02:16 PM

Quote from: s12345 on September 02, 2010, 01:42 PM
there is nothing special about human intelligence

so you don't find it even a little strange that we are able to know the deepest laws of the universe from inside atoms to galaxies, describe them using complex mathematics, and use them to make predictions to the extent we can incorporate them into our technologies?

i find that strange

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #17 - September 02, 2010, 02:16 PM

Yeah but inflation is post-BB so wouldn't have any bearing on pre-BB stuff, unless I'm missing something.

I have a suspicion that either what Hawking said wasn't quite what he was reported as saying, or else he just made an off the cuff comment in an attempt to dumb it down and it came out a bit dumber than it should have.

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- Prince Spinoza
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #18 - September 02, 2010, 02:18 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 02:16 PM
so you don't find it even a little strange that we are able to know the deepest laws of the universe from inside atoms to galaxies, describe them using complex mathematics, and use them to make predictions to the extent we can incorporate them into our technologies?

i find that strange

Why, we are made of the stuff. Why shouldn't we understand it?
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #19 - September 02, 2010, 02:20 PM

A short clip to confuse the subject even more!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVsHjnY-o9s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

...
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #20 - September 02, 2010, 02:24 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on September 02, 2010, 02:16 PM
Yeah but inflation is post-BB so wouldn't have any bearing on pre-BB stuff, unless I'm missing something.

yeah i'm sure we're missing something - and i get the feeling that if we are, its a personal speculation of Hawking (that he probably would describe in his new book and not in a news article).

Quote
I have a suspicion that either what Hawking said wasn't quite what he was reported as saying, or else he just made an off the cuff comment in an attempt to dumb it down and it came out a bit dumber than it should have.

i wouldn't rule it out

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #21 - September 02, 2010, 02:32 PM

Quote from: Prince Spinoza on September 02, 2010, 02:18 PM
Why, we are made of the stuff. Why shouldn't we understand it?

humans or monkeys or cats should potentially be able to understand anything in the universe - but the fact that it appears that we humans actually do posess the intelligence for this, i personally think is quite amazing and when i think about it deeply, strikes me as a little strange i guess

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- billy
- Pub Regular
- Tripitaka ~ Closet Juice
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #22 - September 02, 2010, 02:34 PM

Quote
humans or monkeys or cats should potentially be able to understand anything in the universe - but the fact that it appears that we humans actually do posess the intelligence for this, i personally think is quite amazing and when i think about it deeply, strikes me as a little strange i guess

Is it more strange than the cognitive difference between a plankton and a dolphin? Our brains are just more highly developed.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
- s12345
- Member
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #23 - September 02, 2010, 02:38 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 02:16 PM
so you don't find it even a little strange that we are able to know the deepest laws of the universe from inside atoms to galaxies, describe them using complex mathematics, and use them to make predictions to the extent we can incorporate them into our technologies?

i find that strange

it only takes a biological view of intelligence to not be too impressed with human intelligence.
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #24 - September 02, 2010, 02:43 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 02, 2010, 02:32 PM
humans or monkeys or cats should potentially be able to understand anything in the universe - but the fact that it appears that we humans actually do posess the intelligence for this, i personally think is quite amazing and when i think about it deeply, strikes me as a little strange i guess

Maybe in a couple of millions of years from now, cats will be thinking about the universe!

...
- osmanthus
- Cave dwelling
- Pub Regular
- Fingerer of piglets
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #25 - September 02, 2010, 02:45 PM

How do you know they aren't doing that already?

Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West.
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #26 - September 02, 2010, 02:49 PM

this was just few mins ago from the life chat with Dawkins on the subject:

Quote
Hannah Devlin:
To kick things off, I'd like to ask Richard what he makes of Hawking's thesis. Is this the new Darwinism?

Richard Dawkins:
Only the new Darwinism in the sense that it finishes off God. Darwin kicked him out of biology, but physics remained more uncertain. Hawking is now administering the coup de grace

...
- Blade Gunner
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #27 - September 02, 2010, 02:50 PM

Quote
How do you know they aren't doing that already?

you never know they may have fulfilled Einsteins dream of a unified theory as well but are keeping it to themselves.

''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
- RIBS
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #28 - September 02, 2010, 02:53 PM

Quote from: osmanthus on September 02, 2010, 02:45 PM
How do you know they aren't doing that already?

Oh yeah, I once heard a cat saying "The Mew Maw", now I think she meant "The Big Bang"...

...
- deusvult
- O......O
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #29 - September 02, 2010, 03:05 PM

Don't kill abu's sense of wonder about the universe, guys.

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
12 3 ... 6 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »