Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #120 - September 03, 2010, 11:09 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 03, 2010, 07:34 PM
actually the idea that the net energy of the universe is zero is precisely that - just an idea. Matter has postitive energy and it has been proposed that gravity might have negative energy - if this is true then it might be possible that the universe has net zero energy. this idea has been successfully incorporated into inflation cosmology models and may well turn out to be right. It is thought that during inflation, energy flows from the gravitational feild to the inflation feild (a type of Higgs feild that gives matter its mass). But there is certainly no explanation for where the initial energy came from , where the gravitational feild came from or where the many laws of physics that would allow this mechanism to work popped into existence from.

2 things, if net energy =0, then no energy is being created, so no question about where the initial energy is being created.
Secondly, again like the universe, why do you assume laws of physics need to pop into existence, if they have always existed
Its like infinity, a difficult concept to get into our heads because we take our conceptual cues from our immediate environment (as did flat earth proponents, how can the earth be spherical if we dont fall of it), but reality could be totally different.

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #121 - September 04, 2010, 12:47 AM

the fact that the net energy of the universe may be zero is actually misleading with regard to what current inflation theory suggests. at the onset of inflation the inflation feild had a definite amount of positive energy - this is what i meant by 'initial energy'. this energy was then amplified as the inflation feild feeds of gravity to the enormous amount it contained post-inflation. since this energy flowed from a gravitational feild which then posessed negative energy, the total net energy in the universe could be thought of as zero. but for certain, for the model to work, the inflation feild needed to posess a certain definite amount of energy that could be amplified by feeding of gravity. calculations show that a tiny nugget on the order of 10-26 cm across and weighing a mere 20 pounds, filled with a uniform inflation feild, could through the ensuing inflation acquire enough energy to account for all we see in the universe today.

with regards to your second point, whther the laws of physics that allowed this to occur popped into existence at the right time or whether they always existed is quite irrelevant - we still have to explain where they came from. we have yet to explain why there is an inflation feild or even the space it occupies, let alone why there is a law of gravity etc. which would allow the mechanism to work.

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #122 - September 04, 2010, 01:15 AM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 04, 2010, 12:47 AM
the fact that the net energy of the universe may be zero is actually misleading with regard to what current inflation theory suggests. at the onset of inflation the inflation feild had a definite amount of positive energy - this is what i meant by 'initial energy'. this energy was then amplified as the inflation feild feeds of gravity to the enormous amount it contained post-inflation. since this energy flowed from a gravitational feild which then posessed negative energy, the total net energy in the universe could be thought of as zero. but for certain, for the model to work, the inflation feild needed to posess a certain definite amount of energy that could be amplified by feeding of gravity. calculations show that a tiny nugget on the order of 10-26 cm across and weighing a mere 20 pounds, filled with a uniform inflation feild, could through the ensuing inflation acquire enough energy to account for all we see in the universe today.

I dont know enough about the details of this theory to comment, but broadly speaking I can get imagine how net entropy, through inflation & contraction, could be zero overall. If that means I am debunking certain aspects of this theory in favour of one that calls for zero entropy then so be it.

If I am wrong, then I am still open to the idea of a creator(s), but it would still in no way suggest that the Abrahmic God, with human fingerprints all over him, is true.

Quote
with regards to your second point, whther the laws of physics that allowed this to occur popped into existence at the right time or whether they always existed is quite irrelevant - we still have to explain where they came from. we have yet to explain why there is an inflation feild or even the space it occupies, let alone why there is a law of gravity etc. which would allow the mechanism to work.

You are doing it again from within your creation bubble.

Why do you imply they came from somewhere, and then expect an answer for something that might never have happened? If we havent got any proof, then shouldnt you at least think this is one option?

i.e. properties interact with their environments in certain ways. Thats it. (And if they didnt, and if I have got Hawkings current premise right, then they wouldnt and we'd have nothing.)

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #123 - September 04, 2010, 01:26 AM

Quote
If that means I am debunking certain aspects of this theory in favour of one that calls for zero entropy then so be it.

inflation cosmology is a newer idea and based on complicated speculative scientific ideas - with respect i don't think you have researched the basics of these ideas

Quote
but it would still in no way suggest that the Abrahmic God, with human fingerprints all over him, is true.

of course i didn't say or imply anything like that

Quote
Why do you imply they came from somewhere, and then expect an answer for something that might never have happened? If we havent got any proof, then shouldnt you at least think this is one option

all i am asking for is an explanation for their existence (this is what i mean when i ask where did they come from) - i only said that the possibility they were created by an inteligent being - is just that - a possibility

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #124 - September 04, 2010, 02:23 AM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 04, 2010, 01:26 AM
inflation cosmology is a newer idea and based on complicated speculative scientific ideas - with respect i don't think you have researched the basics of these ideas

No I havent, but I was not talking specifically about these ideas. The idea in principle of zero entropy sounds fine to me, whether it applies to this theory or not is irrelevent to me. Zero entropy is one method of dealing with the Law of Conservation, and was something I still struggled with near the end of my journey towards apostacy.

Whether current theories work in congruence with this or not matters not, I am sure sooner or later its entirely possible that one will which does away with the absolute need of a creator imo, at least from this angle.

Quote
of course i didn't say or imply anything like that

I know you didnt, but I just wanted to highlight the fact that these questions are irrelevent to whether any religion is true because its the same questions I hear religionists often bring up.

Quote
all i am asking for is an explanation for their existence (this is what i mean when i ask where did they come from)

How about "they just are". Or my attempt at summarising Hawkings work (in brackets below). Or are neither of these possible?

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #125 - September 04, 2010, 04:45 PM

Quote from: Tlaloc on September 03, 2010, 11:06 PM
You are being dishonest, because you pick the EASY to infer properties.

You were basically saying:
From easy rules always come easy properties.
And then you go and pick an example of an easy property derived from easy rules.

What I am trying to say here is that "complex to infer" properties can also be derived from extremely simple systems.

For example, can you tell if the "gap" between the previous prime and this prime is lesser or greater than the gap between this prime and the next?

To spare your time: mathematicians have tried for centuries to "discover" a pattern for the occurrence of prime numbers within the natural numbers, with no success yet.
It appears to be either "random" (randomness spawning from very few precise laws) or extremely complex (complex properties spawning from very few precise laws).

So your hypothesis that some property as complex as feelings cannot derive from a collection of simple rules is just made up in order to give more strength to a philosophy that you have decided that is correct before hand.

I.E. your inability to see how "qualitative properties" could come from "quantitative properties" is not a proof of anything.

I think Tlaloc and z10 are gay for each other

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #126 - September 04, 2010, 05:07 PM

Quote from: abuyunus2 on September 04, 2010, 04:45 PM
I think Tlaloc and z10 are gay for each other

...
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #127 - January 02, 2012, 02:19 AM

Quote from: z10 on September 02, 2010, 02:02 PM
do you think the beauty and majesty of the cosmos can be reduced to the locomotive collisions of primal, inert matter? perhaps even, do you think that the human mind can be reduced to being the affect of such random collisions?

What is so great about the human mind that it warrants that it was God who made it? Infact how can anything be so great that we must say that it was only God who could have made it? Its heresy to praise any created thing by saying that its so worthy that we must reserve God as responsible for it being the way it is over any other. Any at all whatsoever owes its existence to God, to be selective over one thing is to make it special and be neglectful of the truth that God is the substratum of all existence. This is to see the God in others selectively. And thus it is not Pantheistic. Its Polytheistic-Pantheism. Such "Pantheism" is fractured and conditional. Silly like Hindu Pantheism/New Ageism, which is that one can worship anything but people choosing to worship only certain beings due to obvious psychological and irrational reasons. (they say its okay to worship a saint because everything is Divine but in truth although everything is Divine only the saint is given special treatment i.e hyprocrisy)

Teleology is so petty. Anything puny will appreciate things that are incredible from its puny perspective. Its not so incredible if it wasnt as puny. Its all relative.
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #128 - January 02, 2012, 02:21 AM

Quote from: Ishina on September 02, 2010, 01:31 PM
I always wondered how much 'intelligent' design it would take to throw primal matter into the void and let it become what it will, colliding violently, randomly, along on whatever momentum it manages to attain, and temporarily forming patterns by chance.

True, true. I get your point. But it cant really be accidental and a matter of chance if there is a God who is under control. All these accidents are from our own subjective and limited perspective.
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #129 - January 02, 2012, 02:25 AM

Quote from: s12345 on September 02, 2010, 01:42 PM
its taken 'human intelligence' such a long time to figure them out. there is nothing special about human intelligence or human perception of time. subjective feelings of beauty have nothing to contribute to the question of creation / creator.

Wow very well put. Exactly like my above post. But concise.
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #130 - January 02, 2012, 02:39 AM

I greatly respect Hawkings and his contribution to physics. But I have to say that there is no validity in using science to argue against the existence of God. If there is no evidence to prove God then there can be no evidence to deny God. The concept that there is Creator who is whom all existence find their origin from ultimately can never be "proved not to exist" because such a being exists without being exclusively included within these things.
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #131 - January 02, 2012, 03:04 AM

passingaround:

How do you disprove a negative? The existence of God is a negative (lack of evidence for it).

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #132 - January 02, 2012, 03:07 AM

You cant. Thats what I was saying.
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #133 - January 02, 2012, 03:34 AM

Exactly, my friend!

Thats why i show lack of interest in debating theists about cosmology, science and so on. Not because this is not my field (i am a social scientist). ergo i dont have sufficient knowledge, But because all of this is quite simple if you look carefully into it, for a brief moment.

This is my mantra when it comes to theists: You say God exists? Well then you have to bring some proof. Until then shut the fuck up and move along. If you are so weak that you are distorting and twisting science in order to "prove" your silly belief, then I pity you.

In conclusion: Read a good book, go to a concert, go to a museum. But for Gods sake dont waste your time on discussing with theists, you might damage your brain.

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #134 - January 02, 2012, 11:22 AM

We might not be able to disprove God, but we can certainly disprove religion.
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #135 - January 02, 2012, 02:10 PM

Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on January 02, 2012, 03:34 AM
In conclusion: Read a good book, go to a concert, go to a museum. But for Gods sake dont waste your time on discussing with theists, you might damage your brain.

Totally agree with that. It's a a complete waste of time & energy especially since most only believe because others around them (friends, family etc.) also believe & other mainly social or psychological reasons. They don't have any desire to look at their faith impartially/objectively. They only seek to affirm their faith & can't even see information which does the opposite. They always will. They can be utterly dishonest & stupid.

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #136 - January 02, 2012, 02:18 PM

Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on January 02, 2012, 03:34 AM

In conclusion: Read a good book, go to a concert, go to a museum. But for Gods sake dont waste your time on discussing with theists, you might damage your brain.

LOL.

I like this.

Debating with theists dumbs u down.

I was debating with a friend of mine who used to be my neighbor back when I used to study in the university and he was pretty cool, ladies man stuff like that, I see lately he is posting starving kids, how celebrating new year is Haram and stuff like that so he had posted a photo of kids starving and I thought I will give him a piece of my mind.

Anyways, he was full of logical fallacies, he had me WTFing my self in several occasions and I needed to write 3 paragraphs just to make him understand and see his flaws.

In the end there was no result, he started jostling logical fallacies one on top of the other where I went like Fuck it.

Debating theists won't take u anywhere because they have a lot of leverage and space in their logic and religion to do every kind of mental gymnastics where u will not be able to debate anymore.

Like saying, World hunger is not my fault or what about Tsunamis they will answer well Shaytans or Demons or crap like that and that will be it, no logic behind them they have a lot of space to use their imagination and fill the gaps in their debate with whatever they want, with free will, god, evil, satan and stuff like that.
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #137 - January 02, 2012, 02:30 PM

Quote from: Al-Ma`arri on January 02, 2012, 03:34 AM
.............

In conclusion: Read a good book, go to a concert, go to a museum. But for Gods sake dont waste your time on discussing with theists, you might damage your brain.

No..no.. no., Discussing and debating with theist is worth and it will not damage the brain unless one is NOT respecting the debate. If you don't discuss and if you do not argue with them and you go on doing what you were doing Reading a good book, going to a concert, going to a museum etc..etc.., THEN ONE DAY THEY WILL GET YOU, if they miss you they will certainly get your children..

That Martin Niemöller famous statement of " First they came .." will become true.,
Quote
"First they came for the communists,
   and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

   Then they came for the trade unionists,
   and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

   Then they came for the Jews,
   and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

   Then they came for me
   and there was no one left to speak out for me."

So what I mean to say is, Do Nothing and don't waste your time is NOT an option for you Al-Ma`arri ..

with best wishes
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #138 - January 02, 2012, 02:35 PM

^ Lol! Recently where I work we have a new member of our team who has been with us for a few months now. He's a really nice guy.Anyway, we're chatting away when he suddenly brings up religion & tells me he's a Jehova's witness & was asking me about my faith. I simply said I'm from a muslim background but didn't say I was an atheist. He then went on & said the E word- evolution & missing links blah de blah.
I managed to stay silent but inside I was thinking 'Oh! For Fucks Sake!'
I hope he doesn't mention it again as I really can't be asked anymore.

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #139 - January 02, 2012, 02:38 PM

Yezevee- I've always wondered- how old are you? I'm just curious.

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #140 - January 02, 2012, 02:59 PM

He's dementia old.

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #141 - January 02, 2012, 05:38 PM

Quote
Quote from: Homo Sapien on January 02, 2012, 02:38 PM
Yezevee- I've always wondered- how old are you? I'm just curious.

Quote from: arX on January 02, 2012, 02:59 PM
He's dementia old.

ooold ...ooooooooooooolllllllllllllllllllllllllllldddddddddddddd.. ., Arx sorry to make your assumption wrong. No..Nah.. No dementia but Damn stubborn fool... never listend to parents.. hell with home Ran away as 11 year old boy.. far ..far away.. 3000 miles from the birth place,...

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #142 - January 03, 2012, 09:17 PM

Hawking has confirmed me in my gnostic atheism - I know there are no gods.

The zero energy of the universe is the key, and I think most of the pieces are in place.

It is all a borrowing on nothing, a quantum fluctuation gone exponential.

It might help if zero and infinity are understood as different faces of the same nothing.

We invented gods as placeholders to try and work out life, the universe and everything. Some of these godconcepts have evolved strange rituals that are actually very good at reinforcing destructive behaviours.

Give it a while and we will understand what certain religious behaviours and rituals do to our neurology and psychology. For example the burqa has to be serious sensory deprivation. What does the pattern of muslim praying do to sleep patterns?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #143 - January 03, 2012, 09:18 PM

Quote from: moi on January 03, 2012, 09:17 PM
Hawking has confirmed me in my gnostic atheism - I know there are no gods.

Given that you can't prove a negative, how do you know this?

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #144 - January 03, 2012, 09:49 PM

What does THE ENERGY IN THE UNIVERSE IS 0 MEAN???

does this mean Energy doesn't exist???

what the fuck I have heard this 100 times and never got to make a small research to understand it.

can someone explain in few words???
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #145 - January 03, 2012, 10:05 PM

Quote from: moi on January 03, 2012, 09:17 PM
Hawking has confirmed me in my gnostic atheism - I know there are no gods.

The zero energy of the universe is the key, and I think most of the pieces are in place.

It is all a borrowing on nothing, a quantum fluctuation gone exponential.

It might help if zero and infinity are understood as different faces of the same nothing.

We invented gods as placeholders to try and work out life, the universe and everything. Some of these godconcepts have evolved strange rituals that are actually very good at reinforcing destructive behaviours.

Give it a while and we will understand what certain religious behaviours and rituals do to our neurology and psychology. For example the burqa has to be serious sensory deprivation. What does the pattern of muslim praying do to sleep patterns?

Where did the quantum foam come from in the first place from which everything started?

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #146 - January 03, 2012, 10:11 PM

Quote from: sturmgewehr on January 03, 2012, 09:49 PM
What does THE ENERGY IN THE UNIVERSE IS 0 MEAN???

does this mean Energy doesn't exist???

what the fuck I have heard this 100 times and never got to make a small research to understand it.

can someone explain in few words???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #147 - January 03, 2012, 10:12 PM

Quote from: z10 on January 03, 2012, 10:05 PM
Where did the quantum foam come from in the first place from which everything started?

It's hasty to say it came from any where.

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #148 - January 03, 2012, 10:23 PM

I thought I answered that - gods are inventions of humans, like nuclear power stations. It isn't proving a negative, it is explaining where something comes from - human minds. Gods would not exist if we did not have language - they are a fill the gap concept - god of the gaps is actually what they are - placeholders, wire and string and paper that did enable things to fly.

It was very common - it still happens - that there was not a word for something. Gods are like wildcards and jokers. With time the rules about how to play them in the game of life became far more formalised, to the point that we have very powerful god games - some worse than dungeons and dragons because the rules of some games allow blowing yourself and others up.

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Re: Hawking: God was not needed to create the Universe
Reply #149 - January 03, 2012, 10:26 PM

Gribben In Search of the Multiverse

Deutsch The beginning of Infinity

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

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