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Theme Changer

 Topic: was reading the wiki

 (Read 8509 times)
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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #30 - September 30, 2010, 08:19 PM
    Quote from: tabun on September 30, 2010, 08:11 PM
    if i understood correctly.....
    lol but
    i am not writing in caps

    you misunderstood
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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #31 - September 30, 2010, 08:21 PM
    @Islame 


    i still dont get it ....
     Huh?
    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #32 - September 30, 2010, 08:23 PM
    Quote from: Luthiel on September 30, 2010, 08:19 PM
    Who said honor killing is only about a parent killing his/her child? As far as I'm aware, honor killings are often perpetrated by the brother or uncle.

    Also, iirc, the Qur'an does promote the death penalty for adultery/fornication, and since honor killings are often directly related to those acts, it could be said the Qur'an gave them the idea in the first place.


    The Qur'an says that adulterers should be flogged. But the ahadith make it clear that a married adulterer should be stoned to death.
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #33 - September 30, 2010, 08:25 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on September 30, 2010, 08:19 PM
    Granted, it's weird that the Qur'an should say such a thing. But I doubt that the author intended any racial prejudice in it. It just looks like a clumsy use of imagery to me.

    Having black slaves was rife, and they were often castrated so obviously thought as lesser beings.  

    What makes you think he thought blacks were equal? Take a look at these verses

    Quote
    Tabari IX:69 - "Arabs are the most noble people in lineage, the most prominent, and the best in deeds. We were the first to respond to the call of the Prophet. We are Allah's helpers and the viziers of His Messenger. We fight people until they believe in Allah. He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for one who disbelieves, we will fight him forever in Allah's Cause. Killing him is a small matter to us."


    vs.

    Quote
    "The master does not have the right to force the female slave to wed to an ugly black slave if she is beautiful and agile unless in case of utmost necessity"  (Ibn Hazm, Vol. 6, p. 469)

    Ishaq:243 - "I heard the Apostle say: 'Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks.... Allah sent down concerning him: 'To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom." [9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, 'If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"


    I'd laugh if it werent so offensive.

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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #34 - September 30, 2010, 08:27 PM
    Quote from: tabun on September 30, 2010, 08:21 PM
    @Islame 


    i still dont get it ....
     Huh?

    Unlike most others, you never start sentences with capital letters, or use capital letters in your posts..  just a joke, nothing to worry about
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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #35 - September 30, 2010, 08:28 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 30, 2010, 08:25 PM
    Having black slaves was rife, and they were often castrated so obviously thought as lesser beings. 

    What makes you think he thought blacks were equal? Take a look at these verses

    vs.

    I'd laugh if it werent so offensive.




    wtf^
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #36 - September 30, 2010, 08:32 PM
    .
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #37 - September 30, 2010, 08:32 PM
    @ MAB

    whats wrong with my ellipsis??
    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #38 - September 30, 2010, 08:34 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on September 30, 2010, 08:27 PM
    Unlike most others, you never start sentences with capital letters, or use capital letters in your posts..  just a joke, nothing to worry about 


    english bigotry, much ?  Tongue
    Confucius:
    "What you do not like done to yourself, do not unto others."
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #39 - September 30, 2010, 08:35 PM
    he's not english Wink
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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #40 - September 30, 2010, 08:36 PM
    o
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #41 - September 30, 2010, 08:50 PM
    @Islame

    Yes, no doubt there is a sense of Arab superiority and tribalism within elements of Islam and among its so-called 'scholars.' Here's a hadith to that effect:

    Muslim, Book 030, Number 5653:

    Wathila b. al-Asqa' reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Verily Allah granted eminence to Kinana from amongst the descendants of Isma'il and he granted eminence to the Quraish amongst Kinana and he granted eminence to the Quraish amongst Banu Hashim and he granted me eminence from the tribe of Banu Hashim.

    Those narrations you provide examples of probably aren't the most sound. Ibn Ishaq's narrations are known even amongst Muslims to be unreliable.

    And here's a random hadith:

    Muslim, Book 030, Number 5654:

    Jabir b. Samura reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: I recognise the stone in Mecca which used to pay me salutations before my advent as a Prophet and I recognise that even now.

    (lol)
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #42 - September 30, 2010, 08:53 PM
    Quote from: tabun on September 30, 2010, 08:03 PM
    but it does condemn killing one's children .... now i am so confused  wacko


    Islam is much more than whatever line you can pull out of the Quran, and you know this. One or two lines of text isn’t going to balance out the total mind-rape of the religion in its purest form.

    It is the school of thought in its entirety. Islam is the sum of its parts, of which the Quran is only a part. You have to take into account the stronger, deeper-rooted and overbearing parts of it - the obsession with sexuality and sins of the flesh, the contempt for women (its not a coincidence that nearly all honour killings are women), the basic principles of Islam repeated and stressed throughout on almost every page, surrender of body mind and soul, to trust in Allah, to turn to him constantly, rendering people incapable of judging according to their own concience, warping and twisting that concience anyway, to avoid, despise, hate, even punish in barbaric ways those who turn away, to demonise them, vilify them, to cut them off, to stop their infection spreading, to crush all dissent, so that glory to Allah is all that remains.

    And lets not even start on what happens when Islam has a full stranglehold on a culture, so all-encompassing that you cannot tell where the religion ends and the culture begins. You cannot separate them from each other at that point. They are one and the same. Honour killing is a symptom of the millennia old misogynistic mindset so deeply rooted in the culture and dogma of zealots. This is Islam in a nutshell, in its purest form - the words of rabid and fearful men, bent on control and power. Islam is a man's world. Women either obey, or are broken down till they do or die.

    Reading this stuff through the eyes of one who believes it to be true and wanting to be true is like diving for pearls in poison waters. Swallow a bit of it and you’re already part way capable of the most henious shit imaginable.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #43 - September 30, 2010, 09:04 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on September 30, 2010, 08:53 PM
    Islam is much more than whatever line you can pull out of the Quran, and you know this. One or two lines of text isn’t going to balance out the total mind-rape of the religion in its purest form.

    It is the school of thought in its entirety. Islam is the sum of its parts, of which the Quran is only a part. You have to take into account the stronger, deeper-rooted and overbearing parts of it - the obsession with sexuality and sins of the flesh, the contempt for women (its not a coincidence that nearly all honour killings are women), the basic principles of Islam repeated and stressed throughout on almost every page, surrender of body mind and soul, to trust in Allah, to turn to him constantly, rendering people incapable of judging according to their own concience, warping and twisting that concience anyway, to avoid, despise, hate, even punish in barbaric ways those who turn away, to demonise them, vilify them, to cut them off, to stop their infection spreading, to crush all dissent, so that glory to Allah is all that remains.

    And lets not even start on what happens when Islam has a full stranglehold on a culture, so all-encompassing that you cannot tell where the religion ends and the culture begins. You cannot separate them from each other at that point. They are one and the same. Honour killing is a symptom of the millennia old misogynistic mindset so deeply rooted in the culture and dogma of zealots. This is Islam in a nutshell, in its purest form - the words of rabid and fearful men, bent on control and power. Islam is a man's world. Women either obey, or are broken down till they do or die.

    Reading this stuff through the eyes of one who believes it to be true and wanting to be true is like diving for pearls in poison waters. Swallow a bit of it and you’re already part way capable of the most henious shit imaginable.


    Word.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #44 - September 30, 2010, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on September 30, 2010, 08:50 PM

    Those narrations you provide examples of probably aren't the most sound. Ibn Ishaq's narrations are known even amongst Muslims to be unreliable.


    I accept that, but we are not debating amongst Muslims here.  We all know Muhammed was beset with a 7th century arab tribal mentality, and there are a number of weak sources that point to this to be the case.  

    2 hundred years ago they were saying the same stuff in the UK, so why should he be any different (unless he was of course a sent from Allah or had a set of superiror ethics beyond his time lol)

    This is the same guy that beat Aisha, was an Arab supremacist, slept with his maid & had a black slave carrying stuff for him whilst he rode on donkeys.  You telling me you think he was into black equal rights?
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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #45 - September 30, 2010, 09:28 PM
    @Islame

    I hardly think he was a morally perfect person, and he was, like all humans, bound to be morally inconsistent. Hence why some things in Islam seem to promote egalitarianism, and others promote the opposite.

    So yeah, he kept slaves. That was a moral short-coming on his part, no doubt. He also enjoined comparatively humane treatment of slaves. He was no-doubt constrained by the morals of his time, but he did some good things as well as bad.
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #46 - September 30, 2010, 09:40 PM
    Yeah but Zebedee, he is supposed to be flawless, unquestionably the most perfect man for eternity, to be emulated and copied as the paragon of the perfect human and Muslim (because human and muslim are interchangeable)

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #47 - September 30, 2010, 09:52 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on September 30, 2010, 09:28 PM
    he did some good things as well as bad.

    No doubt, my point is that black rights probably not one of them, particularly when Islamic sources also point that out.
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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #48 - September 30, 2010, 09:52 PM
    @billy

    Quote from: billy on September 30, 2010, 09:40 PM
    Yeah but Zebedee, he is supposed to be flawless, unquestionably the most perfect man for eternity, to be emulated and copied as the paragon of the perfect human and Muslim (because human and muslim are interchangeable)


    I have absolutely no argument with that. He was undoubtedly constrained by the 7th century morals of his time. Neither he nor any other human should be regarded as being morally perfect.
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #49 - September 30, 2010, 09:55 PM
    @Islame

    Quote from: IsLame on September 30, 2010, 09:52 PM
    No doubt, my point is that black rights probably not one of them, particularly when Islamic sources also point that out.


    Fair enough. But I myself would say that you can also find things in Islam that contradict the notion of racism.
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #50 - September 30, 2010, 10:10 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on September 30, 2010, 09:55 PM
    Fair enough. But I myself would say that you can also find things in Islam that contradict the notion of racism.

    Where?  Do you have examples outside of the context of a global ummah of this?

    Politically in modern day terms, I would call him a right wing authoritarian Arab supremacist.    I could point out his racism against Jews, but I know you are already aware of them.

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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #51 - September 30, 2010, 10:13 PM
    Quote from: Zebedee on September 30, 2010, 09:52 PM
    @billy

    I have absolutely no argument with that. He was undoubtedly constrained by the 7th century morals of his time. Neither he nor any other human should be regarded as being morally perfect.


    Yes, but even that is arguable, about being constrained by the morals of the time.

    But lets leave that to one side.

    He was in touch with God! He was God's emissary on earth! Why should he be constrained by the morals of the time?

    Do you get what I'm saying? Mo is Islam's achilles heel. The reverence for him, the refusal to relativise him, in order to keep Islam as the most prime divine message, is what will sink Islam, when it gets diffused over time.

    Why else is there are death taboo attatched to criticising him?

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #52 - September 30, 2010, 10:17 PM
    Quote from: billy on September 30, 2010, 10:13 PM
    Yes, but even that is arguable, about being constrained by the morals of the time.

    But lets leave that to one side.

    He was in touch with God! He was God's emissary on earth! Why should he be constrained by the morals of the time?

    Do you get what I'm saying? Mo is Islam's achilles heel. The reverence for him, the refusal to relativise him, in order to keep Islam as the most prime divine message, is what will sink Islam, when it gets diffused over time.

    Why else is there are death taboo attatched to criticising him?




    Except....for the fucking a 9-year-old part. They'll happily engage in all sorts of sophistries to try and relativise that.
    19:46   <zizo>: hugs could pimp u into sex

    Quote from: yeezevee
    well I am neither ex-Muslim nor absolute 100% Non-Muslim.. I am fucking Zebra

  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #53 - September 30, 2010, 10:20 PM
    Yes, Muslims do do that. But what I mean by a refusal to relativise him, is to accept that he was just a man of his time, and not the most perfect man for all humanity for all eternity who must be emulated, revered, and virtually worshipped, whose actions are sunnah, etc etc etc. Because to do that would mean the house of cards that is Islam would fall apart. It would just become another religion then. He is nothing special. Islam is nothing special.

    This contradiction cannot be maintained in the modern age - there is too much tension there.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #54 - September 30, 2010, 11:39 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on September 30, 2010, 07:23 PM
    I think while Islam does not necessarily directly legitimize honor killings, it does set the conditions and the stage for it. After all, if you treat women as property then its not too far off before you kill them for not obeying your rules.

    +1

    Quote from: Luthiel on September 30, 2010, 08:19 PM
    Who said honor killing is only about a parent killing his/her child? As far as I'm aware, honor killings are often perpetrated by the brother or uncle.

    Also, iirc, the Qur'an does promote the death penalty for adultery/fornication, and since honor killings are often directly related to those acts, it could be said the Qur'an gave them the idea in the first place.

    +1

    In fact, I think there *is* theological evidence (in Quran and Hadith) which could be interpreted to mean that anyone who kills an apostate or adulterer or homosexual, should not be punished for taking the Shariah law into their own hands if there is no Islamic state.  This basically means Islam condones honour killings, in my opinion.  I'll see if I can find Hadith evidence to prove this.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #55 - September 30, 2010, 11:45 PM
    Again whilst its not a specific instruction in the Quran, there's also hadiths like the one where Mo ripped a womans limbs apart by 2 camels for defaming him. 

    Honour killing at the extreme, and carried out at the behest of its spiritual leader.
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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #56 - October 01, 2010, 08:42 AM
    Point well made, IsLame. Afro  It is things like that which make honour killers feel that Islam justifies the killing of others when Islam's honour is violated.  The radical Muslims (notably the violent Islamist, Sayyid Qutb) have no difficulty finding evidence in the Prophet's example to justify their vigilante justice stance.

    Furthermore, I think there are Hadiths which imply that it is a sin to be complacent when a son/daughter/wife/relative is committing a major sin, e.g. fornication, adultery, homosexuality, apostasy, blasphemy etc.  From this, Muslims could derive their justification for honour killings.  Again, I will see if I can dig up these Hadiths.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

    Baloney Detection Kit
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #57 - October 01, 2010, 10:39 AM
    The Qur'an provides the proviso for subduing or eliminating any dishonourable element from a family; for in Islam honour is more important than life. Q4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Qur'an 17:32 describes adultery as shameful and evil, Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful and an evil. For many Muslims any romantic relationship outside marriage and the ummah is considered evil and attracts shame unto the entire family.

    And as pointed out before there are many ahadith that sanction the killing of those committing adultery or shaming the family with non-marital relationships.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #58 - October 01, 2010, 11:25 AM
    yes
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  • Re: was reading the wiki
     Reply #59 - October 01, 2010, 12:32 PM
    It has to be said, however, that honour killings are not an exclusively Muslim problem.  Many other cultures are guilty of it too.  It doesn't surprise me too much because humans are a very social, hierarchical species and it wasn't too long ago that we lived in tribes where maintaining the structure within the tribe was extremely important (for the survival of the tribe).

    But obviously, honour killings still need to be condemned.  We are now in the 21st century and we should put that all behind us as we try to build a better world.

    Going back to the original point, if someone asks whether Islam sanctions (or at least condones) honour killings, I would say 'arguably yes'.  Some scholars would say yes and some would say no.  Take your pick.
    "Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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